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Author Topic: Proposal: Throw out the legal system  (Read 6051 times)

Offline Lapeirousia

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 01:25:51 PM »
Just when I thought you were understanding me a little better McM you go and demonstrate how you seem things completely differently.

I'm taken aback really going to have to respond to this later today.

It's disrespectful to THROW OUT the legal system when it has had a lot of work put into it and it is able to be changed you just lack the determination to engage with the system.  Let me not point out who was and who was not in the senate the last six months voting on amendments and editing the laws on the wiki.

I initially wanted to change the whole system when naysayers were telling me how deadlocked it is, but it's NOT beyond repair.  We have the tools to do it, we're just too lazy and distracted to get on with it.

Since Eluvatar showed he does still care about the region, I'm not happy with you turning it into a system he would not like.  Gulliver plainly stated he'd rather the region (if it was irreparable) be left to lie than turn it into a kingdom.  If you look Osiris and what Eluvatar did there recently, he showed he is not happy with Osiris the way it is and sought to make it more liberal and democratic.  Making Taijitu a less liberal and less democratic system is embarrassing to my mind.

And motivation, apart from protecting Taijitu due to all Elu has done for TNP, I see becoming successful in Taijitu as a way to eventually gain Elu's trust.

So yes we see things very differently and we have a lot of work to do...
Niadh Tabaqui Dion Diablessa

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 02:22:27 PM »
The constitution establishes a clear process for amending it, and when that process is followed the changes adopted have clear democratic legitimacy.

If one gets rid of it entirely, then there is no longer a clear process for amending it adopting a constitution, and one grants an implicit power over everything to either the forum admins, the Delegate, or the Founders (please no).

I don't think the system as exists, assuming we change it to allow Ministers to be in the Senate, prevents us from discussing options for constitutional change using the current process. One could adopt a monarchic constitution by a Senate vote and referendum ratifying it -- I would of course strongly oppose turning Taijitu into a monarchy.

Throwing out everything would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

McMasterdonia, the Senate is not and has never been limited to Founder Nation Issues. Those were only ever a source of constant new business for when the Senate didn't happen to be legislating for the region. The Senate wrote its own internal procedures, adopted a Taijitu Criminal Code, A Due Process Act protecting citizens rights, an Elections and Referendums Act regulating the process in detail, a Founder Nation Act, a (thrice revised) Ministries Act, an Oaths Act, and a World Assembly Act. Many of these have seen some problems since they were written and will be needing revision. In particular I hope to ask the Senate to move us away from CIVS soon.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 02:38:20 PM by Eluvatar »
                                 
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Offline St Oz

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2013, 02:32:56 PM »
Just vote my cat as emperor of taijitu, boom, monarchy.

Also McMasterdonia, thank you for saying what I've been saying the past 6 months minus the swear words and insults.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 03:18:33 PM »
Please move this to the Civic Center, this discussion has no place in the Senate.

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 08:03:41 PM »
The Senate's assent would be needed for any constitutional change, fwiw...
                                 
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Offline Funkadelia

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 11:40:23 PM »
I believe it does have a place in the Senate.

While I've previously retracted my proposal of changing Taijitu to a monarchy (and in case I wasn't clear before, I am retracting that idea), I still feel a better course of action would be to rewrite it all. While yes, there is tradition and history in these laws, someday the history has to be left behind. We can lock up the old things in a special box to look upon later, but we need to change things around. The main point I'm trying to drive home is that I think all of the laws need to be changed.
Today's date is: Today is Jocidi, 5 Cielidor AR 5 - Day 1770 of the Glorious Revolution.

Many trials make manifest
The stranger's fate, the curses' bane.
Many touchstones try the stranger
Many fall, but one remains.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 11:58:53 PM »
The problem of "re-writing" it, is that a big part of it is properly written already, and one would only be changing some semantics here and there, and any other REAL change would be as much change as we're trying to do with allowing Ministers in the Senate. For instance, the "Council idea" I've been trying to spread around, much of it's base ideals are already practiced by this Senate, we are already a "council", we're already practicing part of Participative Democracy, and one could argue that there's a big leap from this to "soviet" council idea, but tbh most of the idea is already in motion. Fact is, Senate does have the power, what can a Delegate really do? He doesn't like one thing he can veto, that thing can be voted against by the Senate who already proposed the thing in the first place, which means, whatever the Senate wants, the Senate gets. IDK why you all go - "omg no the Delegate can't be a puppet of the senate, your council idea is stupid" - well guess what, he is bound to serve and we can have the first and the last word in any issue. All the "council idea" would do is create a different nuance, maybe open up more participation, but seems a lot of you don't like the idea so, there, I'm not going through with any of it's proposals.

I will oppose fiercely this monarchy crap but this brings up a different angle, we could RP a conflict, one could make Taijitu a monarchy, but others could form the Council (or any other name w/e i don't care). I've been trying to see if any of you are interested but seems not.

Other than that, all is good, just get everything started, games, quizes, spamming, recruitment, some military stuff so some of you can be entertained with.

I liked Oz's proposal for a turn based RPG set, idk what that entails but might be interesting.

Offline Funkadelia

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2013, 12:05:44 AM »
I believe I've already posted and stated multiple times in IRC that I am no longer advocating monarchy. It was just an idea I had but, as I have stated, is not my primary concern.

While the laws are already written, I feel that a complete overhaul of everything having to do with laws in Taijitu should simply be rewritten to keep things simple. In my opinion as well as some others (who can make themselves known as they wish so as to not put words into their mouths) the legal code is quite confusing and could be easily simplified by rewriting it. Why are you so opposed to change that could be positive for the region. You may be able to understand and fathom it but could a new player understand it easily? I don't believe they could. I don't understand the point of advocating keeping this sprawling existing legal code and any confusion it may bring. In my opinion, amending anything in this legal system is confusing and a burden on any legislator.

Look at the condition the region is in. Has keeping the old laws helped it at all?

No. A fresh set of laws and, for that matter, a fresh look for the Taijitu forums will mean a fresh start for Taijitu itself.
Today's date is: Today is Jocidi, 5 Cielidor AR 5 - Day 1770 of the Glorious Revolution.

Many trials make manifest
The stranger's fate, the curses' bane.
Many touchstones try the stranger
Many fall, but one remains.

Offline Lapeirousia

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2013, 12:53:05 AM »
or we could as senators try and understand the laws we've got and change ones that most need changing... which is our top two most complex laws, and which are our top two most obstructive laws?

I did vote for the council but I didn't hear the result of the vote.  If it's outvoted that's fine we'll keep the existing system.
Niadh Tabaqui Dion Diablessa

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2013, 02:50:15 AM »
How helpful is [wiki]Laws of Taijitu[/wiki] toward understanding the laws, and toward finding problems? Can it be improved?
                                 
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Offline Lapeirousia

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Re: Proposal: Throw out the legal system
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2013, 09:48:43 PM »
It makes the laws of Taijitu surprisingly clear.  It will be interesting to hear what the senate thinks of it.
Niadh Tabaqui Dion Diablessa