Taijitu
Forum Meta => Government of Taijitu, 2014 => Archive => Civic Center => Topic started by: Funkadelia on December 01, 2013, 04:40:22 AM
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Hello. I propose we throw out every law on the books of Taijitu in 2 votes. One to repeal the constitution and the second an omnibus to remove the rest of the legal code. We will then replace it with a monarchy with me as the King, as I am clearly the most active Taijituan around these days. Here is my reasoning:
- No one cares about this region in NS. A mix up and a monarchy will get activity going. People like monarchies. Look at TNI and United Kingdom.
- This legal system is boring. No one likes to stay
- We need a good change from stagnancy
- What else is there to do in this region? I promise I'll make it interesting. You will see.
Seriously, what is the point in caring about protecting the Democracy anymore? We can repeal this and come up with a new constitution. Of course it wouldn't be an absolute monarchy. It will be constitutional, and we can write up the laws. I honestly see no point in protecting Taijituan democracy at this point. In my eyes, monarchy UCR's seem to be popular nowadays.
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If we truly believe that Taijitu has run its course and want a monarchy, I think it would make more sense just to make an entirely new region. I really would like, if Taijitu is not something that can be gotten back up again, for it to be allowed to just lie as it is instead.
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That is perfectly acceptable as well. I just want to have more nationstates fun D:
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there's plenty of regions that are monarchic.
We can always have a duality mode
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Or we could just create a puppet and move to TFK, they already have a monarchy set up.
That way Taijitu gets to keep its democracy, which, is actually something a lot of people cherish.
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And if you think nobody cares about Taijitu, wow, you'll be really shocked how much less they care about TFK.
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Nobody mentioned TFK.
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Nobody mentioned TFK.
Chasmanthe did!
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Well Chasmanthe, it was overtly obvious the minute you joined this region that you sought political power and nothing more. If you were really interested in fixing Taijitu and trying to resurrect it as a region in the world, you would have been more involved than you are. To be honest, you don't even have a place in this Senate, especially if you're going to throw around these needlessly pointed words. What have you done for this region? I haven't seen much from you at all.
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Everyone has a place in this senate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration), even if you don't like them.
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I sought power for myself, yes, but also I sought to protect Taijitu from falling into the wrong hands.
The founders favour democracy, and I defend that system.
It still amazes me that you paint me as the bad guy, but it is quite funny.
I think your proposal has been answered by Gulliver, he wants continuity, I think you underestimate the value of continuity, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right.
If we do join TFK on the side, or Empire of Oceania for that matter, we can experience what a friendly monarchic region is like without turning our home into one.
If you do want to get rid of the laws, perhaps repealing them one at a time would be more manageable.
Edit: And you are of course welcome here and free to suggest and discuss what ever you want to, I'd be sad if you felt you couldn't.
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Nobody has mentioned regions by name, besides you Chasmanthe. I don't know what your motive is by doing so. I don't want anyone joining Empire of Oceania fwiw.
I'm not sure that a monarchy would work for Taijitu, but we should allow the system to become more fluid and for it to adapt and change. If you want continuity.. this is it.. continued stagnation with nothing at all happening. You can cling to the decaying remains of the past Chasmanthe, but you have done little to suggest anything that would actually improve the region other than simply keeping it as a place to hang out (which is fine, but we should acknowledge it for what it is - nothing more). Sometimes I don't honestly know what the motivation is, but I think you have good intent, but maybe I am too trusting.
Either way - we need radical change for the region to go forward. Even if we acknowledge that our laws 'work' there is literally nothing for new people to do once they join the forum. The forum is old and ugly, it is not inviting to anyone any more. All that remains are a few old relics that continue to flog the dead horse that exists and seem unwilling to change much. On IRC recently we have all agreed that either we need to recruit and make changes, or accept the region as a place to hang out and not attempt a half hearted revival.
I propose that while Eluvatar is Delegate, we take the opportunity to repeal the constitutional documents and legal code. Recruiting should start immediately and once the recruits start trickling in a constitutional convention should be held. This would give an opportunity for people to jump right into something real, and feel like they are contributing to the future of this region.
The Senate was an absolute farce when all it could do was answer founder issues, while the referendum requirements hold the region hostage to the words of an old outdated document. There is no point in having such a body that cannot actually do anything else other than satisfy some deranged agenda and I will vigorously oppose any moves to return the Senate to the weak and gutless body that it used to be.
While I have faith that recruitment for taijitu would bring nations in gameside, we literally have hardly anything appealing forum side. I made a zeta forum and I would gladly give the root account to Eluvatar and/or Gulliver to that forum. It would be a totally new fresh start and one where we can form the new future of Taijitu away from this old and outdated forum. I think that is in the interests of the region.
We need to focus on putting things in place for new people to do. We need to look at other successful regions and consider what works for them?
- Robust and active legislatures
Founder issues do not provide for this. Not even remotely. I don't think we should bother with them at all.
- Active military?
Require personnel, but possibly something to consider for the future.
- Spam and Roleplay?
We have spam threads and we have roleplay resources. Nobody is using either right now. Why is that? Maybe we should we get off our asses and do it?
- Easy involvement to all arms of government?
who are our Ministers? What should the goal of these Ministries be? We need some sort of broad idea in place for when someone joins and how they can participate? Some leadership from Eluvatar will be required on this front, but I have worked with him in this area plenty of times and he is unquestionably able to provide.
Finally
I am broadly speaking in favor of complete abolition of the legal system.
I would suggest that Delfos start practicing what he preaches. The hypocrisy on the part of the Speakers office is almost laughable.
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Generally speaking, successful and active regions have robust, active, and comprehensible legal codes and legislatures, and simple processes that can be used to change the laws. Currently, much of the law's importance is in the Constitution which is cumbersome and difficult to amend. The combination of a simple legal system as well as recruitment is essentially a catalyst for regional activity, whether you'd like to admit it is or not. While RP is interesting, yes, it's not what draws great minds of Nationstates to regions. Many regions that have a large population and attempt roleplays end up just giving up on them.
Military operations with a major gameplay force is also a good way of getting Taijitu's name out there. If we can get more people and form a cohesive military, we can honor our historical traditions and side with a good defender region or group, such as the UDL, Lazarus, or some other defenders.
The reason I proposed a Kingdom was basically just to shift things up and get Taijitu's name back out in the world. We need to do some real stuff that impacts the rest of the world, and not just Taijitu itself. This is how UCR's become popular. They have large population with some popular people in it, and they make themselves known internationally.
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One thing I am not is a dictator, so I cannot practice what I preach because you are all sinners. I did try to change it several times, where were you, where was Funkadelia, where were all when we could have changed this before, all talk and no walk McM, you're already entrenched in another region, how can you or others come here and say "what have you done for taijitu", but you are all more active elsewhere. Nobody here is more saint than others, everybody has a share of trying to make this a better place, so if you please stop being concerned and kicking each other in the shins, it's very disloyal to Taijitu itself.
Trying to undermine each other's amazingness to renew Taijitu is counter-productive, we're all amazing and we can do amazing things with Taijitu.
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Well, if we're going to do something productive, then maybe we should try to do the things that Mcmasterdonia has neatly posted out for us as a course of action.
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Just when I thought you were understanding me a little better McM you go and demonstrate how you seem things completely differently.
I'm taken aback really going to have to respond to this later today.
It's disrespectful to THROW OUT the legal system when it has had a lot of work put into it and it is able to be changed you just lack the determination to engage with the system. Let me not point out who was and who was not in the senate the last six months voting on amendments and editing the laws on the wiki.
I initially wanted to change the whole system when naysayers were telling me how deadlocked it is, but it's NOT beyond repair. We have the tools to do it, we're just too lazy and distracted to get on with it.
Since Eluvatar showed he does still care about the region, I'm not happy with you turning it into a system he would not like. Gulliver plainly stated he'd rather the region (if it was irreparable) be left to lie than turn it into a kingdom. If you look Osiris and what Eluvatar did there recently, he showed he is not happy with Osiris the way it is and sought to make it more liberal and democratic. Making Taijitu a less liberal and less democratic system is embarrassing to my mind.
And motivation, apart from protecting Taijitu due to all Elu has done for TNP, I see becoming successful in Taijitu as a way to eventually gain Elu's trust.
So yes we see things very differently and we have a lot of work to do...
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The constitution establishes a clear process for amending it, and when that process is followed the changes adopted have clear democratic legitimacy.
If one gets rid of it entirely, then there is no longer a clear process for amending it adopting a constitution, and one grants an implicit power over everything to either the forum admins, the Delegate, or the Founders (please no).
I don't think the system as exists, assuming we change it to allow Ministers to be in the Senate, prevents us from discussing options for constitutional change using the current process. One could adopt a monarchic constitution by a Senate vote and referendum ratifying it -- I would of course strongly oppose turning Taijitu into a monarchy.
Throwing out everything would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
McMasterdonia, the Senate is not and has never been limited to Founder Nation Issues. Those were only ever a source of constant new business for when the Senate didn't happen to be legislating for the region. The Senate wrote its own internal procedures, adopted a Taijitu Criminal Code, A Due Process Act protecting citizens rights, an Elections and Referendums Act regulating the process in detail, a Founder Nation Act, a (thrice revised) Ministries Act, an Oaths Act, and a World Assembly Act. Many of these have seen some problems since they were written and will be needing revision. In particular I hope to ask the Senate to move us away from CIVS soon.
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Just vote my cat as emperor of taijitu, boom, monarchy.
Also McMasterdonia, thank you for saying what I've been saying the past 6 months minus the swear words and insults.
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Please move this to the Civic Center, this discussion has no place in the Senate.
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The Senate's assent would be needed for any constitutional change, fwiw...
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I believe it does have a place in the Senate.
While I've previously retracted my proposal of changing Taijitu to a monarchy (and in case I wasn't clear before, I am retracting that idea), I still feel a better course of action would be to rewrite it all. While yes, there is tradition and history in these laws, someday the history has to be left behind. We can lock up the old things in a special box to look upon later, but we need to change things around. The main point I'm trying to drive home is that I think all of the laws need to be changed.
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The problem of "re-writing" it, is that a big part of it is properly written already, and one would only be changing some semantics here and there, and any other REAL change would be as much change as we're trying to do with allowing Ministers in the Senate. For instance, the "Council idea" I've been trying to spread around, much of it's base ideals are already practiced by this Senate, we are already a "council", we're already practicing part of Participative Democracy, and one could argue that there's a big leap from this to "soviet" council idea, but tbh most of the idea is already in motion. Fact is, Senate does have the power, what can a Delegate really do? He doesn't like one thing he can veto, that thing can be voted against by the Senate who already proposed the thing in the first place, which means, whatever the Senate wants, the Senate gets. IDK why you all go - "omg no the Delegate can't be a puppet of the senate, your council idea is stupid" - well guess what, he is bound to serve and we can have the first and the last word in any issue. All the "council idea" would do is create a different nuance, maybe open up more participation, but seems a lot of you don't like the idea so, there, I'm not going through with any of it's proposals.
I will oppose fiercely this monarchy crap but this brings up a different angle, we could RP a conflict, one could make Taijitu a monarchy, but others could form the Council (or any other name w/e i don't care). I've been trying to see if any of you are interested but seems not.
Other than that, all is good, just get everything started, games, quizes, spamming, recruitment, some military stuff so some of you can be entertained with.
I liked Oz's proposal for a turn based RPG set, idk what that entails but might be interesting.
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I believe I've already posted and stated multiple times in IRC that I am no longer advocating monarchy. It was just an idea I had but, as I have stated, is not my primary concern.
While the laws are already written, I feel that a complete overhaul of everything having to do with laws in Taijitu should simply be rewritten to keep things simple. In my opinion as well as some others (who can make themselves known as they wish so as to not put words into their mouths) the legal code is quite confusing and could be easily simplified by rewriting it. Why are you so opposed to change that could be positive for the region. You may be able to understand and fathom it but could a new player understand it easily? I don't believe they could. I don't understand the point of advocating keeping this sprawling existing legal code and any confusion it may bring. In my opinion, amending anything in this legal system is confusing and a burden on any legislator.
Look at the condition the region is in. Has keeping the old laws helped it at all?
No. A fresh set of laws and, for that matter, a fresh look for the Taijitu forums will mean a fresh start for Taijitu itself.
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or we could as senators try and understand the laws we've got and change ones that most need changing... which is our top two most complex laws, and which are our top two most obstructive laws?
I did vote for the council but I didn't hear the result of the vote. If it's outvoted that's fine we'll keep the existing system.
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How helpful is [wiki]Laws of Taijitu[/wiki] toward understanding the laws, and toward finding problems? Can it be improved?
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It makes the laws of Taijitu surprisingly clear. It will be interesting to hear what the senate thinks of it.