A Proposal Re: #Taijitu_Tavern

[Delfos]

Why does the topic of the channel mentions me?

It was a joke because you used to join the channel just to call us "Privileged assholes" or say "so much privilege" then leave.

That is not true. After Tavern Gate I think it was Oz that wanted to turn the channel back to RP. I added the channel to auto-join

I "left" the channel after typing this while there was a some weird discussion about things completely unrelated to taijitu or the purpose of the channel:
"[03:52] <Delfos> and you want this to be an RP discussion channel?"

I kept it on auto-join until I realized that you kept joking about exactly what I said and not caring 1 bit to shape the channel back to RP oriented. Thank you very much.

In fact, it would be more honest to admit that it is a reference to when you and others bad mouthed other taijis, specially me, and I was not in the channel.

This is the core to what I based my proposal to scrap your little private room. No it won't stop you from creating a new one, but at least you'll understand how messed up those actions were.

Also Gulliver, I don't see how any of those "made amends", or how I am out of line in any way.

[Prydania]

And I have to echo Eluvatar's sentiment, why was this brought up now...

I've already answered Elu's question on that matter to the best of my abilities.

...after we'd already gone through this ugly business with #taijitu_tavern and put it behind us? I can see the logic behind if the room's already there let's use it, but as Eluvatar noted the behind the back discussions had already ended weeks if not months ago. This proposal and discussion has been less about setting up a chat room and more about retribution

As the person who raised this concern? This is most definitely NOT about retribution. At all. I thought I made that abundantly clear here.

Funkadelia, Myroria and Dyr seemed to be getting singled out for whatever reason, but I'm just as guilty as they were, am also interested in GP and consider them my friends. And now this toxic discussion has driven one of them away. I don't want to jump ship, but if this region has decided it's going to devote it's legislative discussion to destroying groups of people which I'm a part of for past crimes for which they've already made amends or worse for imagined crimes, I'm not sure I see much point sticking around.

As I said, I have no interest in digging up anything Myro or Funk may have done. I'm not interested in retribution re: that past incident. I wasn't even here, and from what I can tell? I wasn't even involved. I don't care about it.
I only care about an established, dedicated room for Taijitu's RPers. And #taijitu_tavern fits that bill. So I would rather reform it.

I wouldn't even say I'm singling out Dyr either. I have nothing against him. I just don't think someone with no interest in RP should have OP status in a RP channel.


Now Gulliver. I'm open to the idea of getting rid of #Taijitu_Tavern. If the owners (whoever they may be) make an effort to shut it down entirely. Getting a new RP room off the ground will be difficult if the old one is still active and being visited.

[Funkadelia]

Why does the topic of the channel mentions me?

It was a joke because you used to join the channel just to call us "Privileged assholes" or say "so much privilege" then leave.

That is not true. After Tavern Gate I think it was Oz that wanted to turn the channel back to RP. I added the channel to auto-join

I "left" the channel after typing this while there was a some weird discussion about things completely unrelated to taijitu or the purpose of the channel:
"[03:52] <Delfos> and you want this to be an RP discussion channel?"

I kept it on auto-join until I realized that you kept joking about exactly what I said and not caring 1 bit to shape the channel back to RP oriented. Thank you very much.

In fact, it would be more honest to admit that it is a reference to when you and others bad mouthed other taijis, specially me, and I was not in the channel.

Also Gulliver, I don't see how any of those "made amends", or how I am out of line in any way.

Ok well if you really want me to "make amends" despite the fact I've already apologized to the people who I'd needed to, I can just leave.

I've really been trying to make this work, despite the fact that this thread needlessly is bringing up wounds that were healing that have already been through a tumult months ago, but I just don't see it working. Some peoples' behavior thus far, despite some being founders and forum admins, is absolutely disgusting and I don't see a point in trying to reason if people would rather make personal digs at one another in attempts to discredit them or drive them from the region. Myroria has already left and he was one of the few who was recruiting for the region. If people just want to keep trying to bring up divisions that should instead be healing as a form of community building, so be it.

Prydania, I have absolutely no idea why you felt it necessary to bring this discussion up again. There is virtually no reason for you to have started this discussion especially when creating a chat room in esper is as easy as typing /join #channelname. This has done nothing but drive people apart, and it's brought out the ugliest in some people. The fact that you are continuing to stick to this topic despite the obvious turmoil it's bringing makes me seriously doubt the overtures you've made to some members of this community as to your desire to "look to the future" and "move on from past conflicts" despite the fact that this sort of discussion has done nothing but the opposite.

[Prydania]

Prydania, I have absolutely no idea why you felt it necessary to bring this discussion up again. There is virtually no reason for you to have started this discussion especially when creating a chat room in esper is as easy as typing /join #channelname.

I felt the need to bring it up because #taijitu_tavern already exists. I would rather reform the RP room we have. Rather then start a new room that would have to compete with #taijitu_tavern. The simplest solution is to fix what we have. Not start building something new.

This has done nothing but drive people apart, and it's brought out the ugliest in some people. The fact that you are continuing to stick to this topic despite the obvious turmoil it's bringing makes me seriously doubt the overtures you've made to some members of this community as to your desire to "look to the future" and "move on from past conflicts" despite the fact that this sort of discussion has done nothing but the opposite.

Look Funk. Gulliver. Myro. Anyone else who think I may have started this thread to troll people. Or get "crazies" to do my work for me.
I wasn't here when whatever this incident was happened. I've been told about it by a few people, and from I gather? I wasn't even mentioned. I have no reason to care who said what about who.

It feels like I've spent half of this thread bending over backwards to make it clear to you and everyone else that I'm not interested in digging old mistakes up.

I think OP issues should be discussed with the channel owners then, perhaps.

Well my goal with this discussion was to draw attention to the fact that the designated IRC channel for Taijitu's RPers and world builders was being neglected. The OP issues go along with that.

I'm not putting up with this shit anymore. I've made my apologies. Maybe the reason this region turned to such shit is because of everyone's toxic disgusting attitude. Good luck, guys. I'm sure it will turn out great.

I agree with this sentiment. I know that past events have tarnished #taijitu_tavern and that it's going to be impossible to divorce that from a discussion on the channel completely.
I don't want to drag past incidents up though. I want to talk about the future of the channel. As far as I'm concerned? Past incidents involving it are only important in so far as why I would like to see the channel redeemed, by returning it to its original and intended use.

Just as an example.
No, I brought this topic up for the same reason I'm sticking to it. Because as a Taijitu RPer I believe Taijitu RPers deserve a space to call their own on IRC. And the #taijitu_tavern room serves that purpose in theory. I was simply looking to reaffirm that as the room's function.

I'm deeply sorry if me simply wanting a channel for Taijitu RPers has caused other people to use the discussion as an excuse to attack fellow citizens. I'm no more in control of what Delfos or Oz says as you are.
Maybe I was wrong to expect this community to be able to talk about this channel? If so that's on me.

I'm sorry if you don't believe that Funk. Myro. Gulliver. But it's the truth. All I want is a RP channel for RPers. And I thought a thread about reforming the channel we have would be easier then trying to get a new channel off the ground.

That's all.

[Delfos]

To be clear, I never asked anybody to make amends. Nor I ever intended to bring up any wounds. Clearly people ask for them when you defend old work ignoring others that worked as hard as any of you to have some kind of high ground to make your point valid, so maybe we should drop some of those issues.

Sad puppy eyes gotta go, don't say anybody is attacking GPers, or that people want to devalue GP, if they want then that's their business. Stop saying "old farts" are being undermined because of Tavern Gate, no, you're just being treated the same way like the rest of us (or is it just me?), you're not a bloody victim.

Antiquity gotta go, coming from Lexicon can't be a thing anymore. BBB is new and has proven to want to work with the community, you can't say "this is not how we do things here" to new people... or to people that you don't like "As you know, Delfos, we do this way". What? I'm not Ecclesia? What the hell tradition? There's even people threatening to leave if we don't things their way, isn't that out of line? "I glue the fabric of reality of this region, if you don't follow my lead in GP I'll leave!" ...Jesus...

Ownership gotta go, if you don't want to be a dictator then let people play as equals amongst themselves. You have admin, you want admin, then be an admin, stop complaining that you are an admin and that you do all the work. Others might not have had that opportunity, the time to spend on this "community", or the patience to endure this hellish discussions.

The "Community" will be reinforced once you embrace that you can't have it all, otherwise people will feel that the invisible hand is not that invisible any more. That's what I think, treat people as people.

May this channel be free of prejudice or rid this channel from the planes of existence, you can do whatever you want, I feel that this forum thread clearly shows that taijitu_tavern isn't exactly what anybody expected it to be, sometimes it's better to create something new like Prydania is hinting, or create nothing at all and use what we already love and cherish.

[Gulliver]

I think this thread has been closed. Enough damage has already been done.

[Prydania]

It seemed easier to reform #taijitu_tavern then to start a new IRC channel from scratch and get the word out. Not while #taijitu_tavern is still around, declaring to be the official room for Taijitu RP. It seemed easier to fix then to start anew.

That was a mistake on my part. A costly mistake, because it seems like others have used it as a means to attack Funk, Myro, Gulliver, and Dyr personally. And that was never my intent. All I wanted was a dedicated room for Taijitu RPers, run by Taijitu RPers.

And it's not worth it. Not worth keeping this discussion alive if people are going to feel betrayed or hurt by it. Too little too late yes, but I'm dropping this proposal.
I've registered a room. #taijitu_cabana. If you want to talk RP and world building? Head there.

To Gulliver, Funk, Myro, Dyr and anyone else who felt like others used this thread as a means to attack them? I'm sorry

[Funkadelia]

Sad puppy eyes gotta go, don't say anybody is attacking GPers, or that people want to devalue GP, if they want then that's their business. Stop saying "old farts" are being undermined because of Tavern Gate, no, you're just being treated the same way like the rest of us (or is it just me?), you're not a bloody victim.

To be clear, I never asked anybody to make amends. Nor I ever intended to bring up any wounds.

Oh really?

Also Gulliver, I don't see how any of those "made amends", or how I am out of line in any way.

Just a message to everyone including myself who made #taijitu_tavern a shittalking room...

Give it the fuck up. We need to reverse its image as a place to shit talk other people in Taijitu, a law would just help do that. Sure we could without the Ecclesia, but it still has the stench of the past to it to me at least.

Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.

Also say what you want, but you fucks including myself still turned this RP-only channel into a Cabal-craptastic fest of gameplay oriented bullshit. I'd rather make amends with the Taijituan Citizens and surrender its authority and regulation to it. Whatever you have to say about regulating an IRC channel with the legislative is bullshit, because this isn't the main channel, it's just a side channel. We are not discussing any other IRC channel other than #taijitu_tavern. So say what you want, but I'm tired of the tavern's stigma because despite trying to make it a public channel it's still populated by game play shit. Talk about game play somewhere else, and I don't resent or hate people who do gameplay, but I just don't like it ... in the RP channel...

Sure. Talk about game play in the main thread, make another cabal channel somewhere else, I don't care. Just leave the tavern to the worldbuilders, is that so fucking hard. Are you such dipshits that you're going to claw away at this in the name of free speech? I'd like a channel for freedom from certain speech, without the unwelcoming stigma it still has.

So in short.

Community first.(yes this includes RP)
NS Gameplay second.

Every time we create a new thread something to deal with issues, it turns in to a heated argument,
where everybody is insulting each other. (I specifically blame Funk for this.) We never
get anything done when we propose these things as you can see:

http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/proposal-rewrite-all-officer-positions-then-hold-elections/

http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/a-master-proposal/

http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/let's-deal-with-the-inactivity!/

[AwesomeSaucer]

END THIS DAMN THREAD ALREADY


Admin note: edited for excessive large text.

[Eluvatar]

03:34 -NickServ(NickServ@services.esper.net)- Prydainia is not registered.

You don't have auto-OPs because you can't be given them.

The second line of this post was removed because I thought better of it.

Edit: I wrote this reply without seeing some of the more recent replies. Whoops. Might indeed be a good idea to drop this topic.

[bigbaldben]

Late to this party and I know it's been expressed that this thread needs to end, but I think that's a mistake.  Everyone should just cool down and come to a mutually agreeable solution. 

I don't pretend to know what underlying grudges are being held here, but I hold none. I released my *outrage* in the VotP article regarding the Tavern, and even joined the channel a few times after to talk role play and had a great time discussing Greater War.  Unfortunately, I don't make it on to IRC much, and though I have tried, I never seem to be on when the cool convos are taking place.

I say all that to say I am unattached to any underlying resentment on this topic.  I don't think it is at all out of line to put this to a vote.  Should the Taijitu Tavern be an "official" channel or not?

Argument for : channel's purpose was created for Taijitu roleplay, and without "official designation," turned into a slumber party gossip channel for the popular girls to dish.  Giving it an "official" designation is a public agreement that we'll use it for its intended purpose. 

Argument against: channel was created by individual(s) and cannot be co-opted by the "state." Further, government labeling it as "official" opens the door to regulate conversation in order to force channel to be used only for RP.  Could start is down the path to a very un-Taijitu-like place.

I propose a vote on the initial question.  I can understand the argument that the proposal is so wrong we shouldn't even vote on it, but I don't agree. Democracies vote to settle differences of opinion. Otherwise, you just have back and forth sniping over 2 days that could have been better spent doing something constructive. Or you have all out war.  And I'm not sure which would be worse.

[Prydania]

03:34 -NickServ(NickServ@services.esper.net)- Prydainia is not registered.

You don't have auto-OPs because you can't be given them.

You added an extra "i"

The second line of this post was removed because I thought better of it.

Edit: I wrote this reply without seeing some of the more recent replies. Whoops. Might indeed be a good idea to drop this topic.

Again, I'm sincerely sorry something as benign as "let's ensure the RP room is in the hands of RPers" got as messy as it did. Despite what some people may be hell-bent on believing? I had only the best of intentions in mind.

I propose a vote on the initial question.  I can understand the argument that the proposal is so wrong we shouldn't even vote on it, but I don't agree. Democracies vote to settle differences of opinion. Otherwise, you just have back and forth sniping over 2 days that could have been better spent doing something constructive. Or you have all out war.  And I'm not sure which would be worse.

The only grudges I have are the ones being projected onto me by people who seem hell bent on me having a grudge with them. Which is frustrating because I've known most of those people since day one of the region. Or at least a good while back. And disagreement on policy aside? I have no desire to be angry at any of them. Or have them be angry at me.
My apologies if that came off tart. I've been trying to make amends for the fact that a discussion I started with the purest of intentions ended up like this. And I can only do that for so long before applogizing for something I didn't do, or didn't intend to happen, gets tiresome.

Anyway bbb...I do appreciate your desire to cut away the unpleasantness and stick to the issue at hand. It's just that the room #taijitu_cabana has been created. With the stated purpose of being a room Taijitu RPers. There's no need to hold a vote.
I find myself belatedly agreeing with Gulliver. Perhaps it's best if #taijitu_tavern goes away. I'm unsure who owns it, but I hope whoever does takes the proper steps to expedite that process. For the good of everyone.

[Khem]

I don't think it is at all out of line to put this to a vote.  Should the Taijitu Tavern be an "official" channel or not?

I believe we should be holding a larger ideological vote than this, should IRC channels or any other offsite branch of Taijitu be "official"/legislated? If yes we will then have to mark subsidiary official branches. If no then it won't matter and people can do what they want and have their popular girls room for shit talk without people feeling hurt about hurtful things being said or at least leave such feelings out of official discussions. Either way I'm happier about it.

Argument for : channel's purpose was created for Taijitu roleplay, and without "official designation," turned into a slumber party gossip channel for the popular girls to dish.  Giving it an "official" designation is a public agreement that we'll use it for its intended purpose. 

This made me laugh and smile immensely, love that it is considered the mean girls party. Thanks for making me smile.

Argument against: channel was created by individual(s) and cannot be co-opted by the "state." Further, government labeling it as "official" opens the door to regulate conversation in order to force channel to be used only for RP.  Could start is down the path to a very un-Taijitu-like place.

Is becoming un-Taijitu-like a bad thing if what we have been is dysfunctional? Could such not lead to a redefinition of Taijitu-likeness? Are you Taiji-like, am I Taiji-unlike? One may never know.

[Eluvatar]

I propose the formation of an Ecclesiastic Committee on Desirable Untaijituan Activities.

[Funkadelia]

I find myself belatedly agreeing with Gulliver. Perhaps it's best if #taijitu_tavern goes away. I'm unsure who owns it, but I hope whoever does takes the proper steps to expedite that process. For the good of everyone.

Myroria owns the channel, and he is not in the region anymore.