Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Prydania on November 22, 2015, 08:52:18 AM
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My fellow citizens...
Many of you know me as someone who loves role play and world building. It is the combination of my love for rp and the people who I've grown to know over the years that keeps bringing me back to this region. And it makes me proud to see a region I've been part of for so long develop such a robust and healthy role play and world building tradition.
It is in that spirit that I address you all tonight. I would like to address the Taijitu-aligned IRC channel #Taijitu_Taverns on the EsperNet server. I would like to quote the room description...
"Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel | Check the userlist. Is Delfos here? RP TALK ONLY"
Now the friendly jab at Citizen Delfos aside, it seems clear that the channel is meant for role play discussion. I have been made aware of some unpleasantness associated with the room in my absence. I was not here, I cannot speak to it nor condemn anyone who was involved.
I only mention it because I feel that incident makes the rehabilitation of the channel and its reputation all the more urgent. The region has a robust rp tradition. The Wiki has a world building guide. We have an entire subforum dedicated to world building and rp planning. It only makes sense to return #Taijitu_Tavern to what it is supposed to be. A Taijitu-aligned IRC channel dedicated to RP planning and discussion.
I move that we, as a body, enact legislation to codify the IRC channel #Taijitu_Tavern to as the region's official RP discussion room on IRC. No offence meant to any other Taijitu citizen, but we role players should have a space to call our own on IRC. To have that Taijitu-aligned room that we can say "this is where we go to engage in Taijitu the way we like." #Taijitu_Tavern already fulfills that need in theory. Just not practice. I propose we rectify that.
My suggestion would be to place the channel under the authority of the Citizen-Liaison, as I feel that Taijitu RP and world building qualify as "cultural" institutions of the region.
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I'm not against this idea, since it was made for this purpose.
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I'm Another old one (who only sticks around for the friends I've made) that agrees with this suggestion.
Especially since there is a general forum IRC channel too.
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I support all of this aside from putting it under a specific officers watch.
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Maybe instead of officer we just have a "worldbuilder" designation which has a criteria of like at least 5 RP posts, a spot on the map, and a month or so of forum activity?
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Maybe instead of officer we just have a "worldbuilder" designation which has a criteria of like at least 5 RP posts, a spot on the map, and a month or so of forum activity?
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSm8n-yBNEGqw6TqlBlH-vDLXHpqMCFiDQoZBMk4Q18DzYbfAaTMQ)
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I support all of this aside from putting it under a specific officers watch.
Same.
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I like it. Been guilty of doing it through our general IRC room.
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Maybe instead of officer we just have a "worldbuilder" designation which has a criteria of like at least 5 RP posts, a spot on the map, and a month or so of forum activity?
Much better than my proposal.
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I disagree with writing IRC channels into law. #taijitu isn't part of Taijitu law and I don't think the tavern should be either. In my view, nothing good has ever come out of government control over channels, especially when there are government appointed people who run the channel. I think it should just be left the way it is, especially since #taijitu has been outside of law for years, and it's been totally fine.
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Funk, the difference is this channel did not do so well without oversight, that said, this is to make sure it stays RP related, not shit talking related.
I second this
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So then does that mean we should legislate #taijitu for the same reason?
I understand the desire for legislative activity to get people posting, but I don't understand what this does to help the region.
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I think if anyone wants to talk shit about everyone else in their own channel they can just start another.
I also see issues with this conflicting with freedom of speech clauses in the BoR. Part of the reason we never codified #taijitu is so that we can regulate speech there without bumping into the Bill of Rights protections.
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So then does that mean we should legislate #taijitu for the same reason?
We don't legislate #Taijitu because what is there to legislate? Its purpose is broad by nature. It's just a place for us to hang out and talk about whatever. It doesn't need oversight.
I also see issues with this conflicting with freedom of speech clauses in the BoR. Part of the reason we never codified #taijitu is so that we can regulate speech there without bumping into the Bill of Rights protections.
If you're worried about this conflicting with freedom of speech then you should already be at odds with the room. Again, I'll quote the channel description.
" Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel | Check the userlist. Is Delfos here? RP TALK ONLY | Quote of the Day: <@Gulliver> What's Arabic for "spoopy" | Please do not share logs | Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only"
Emphasis is mine. The room is already supposed to restrict conversation to rp/world building talk. All that's being proposed here is to codify the intention.
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This room can be created anyway?
I had missed the "put into law" part of this concept.
EDIT: in that room now.
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We don't need to make this a law of sorts, or make someone oversee it.
We can simply moderate others ourselves and remind others to stay on task. If someone talks about something other than RP on the Tavern, just remind them that they should go to the public channel to continue. That simple! :)
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never mind
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#taijitu_tavern can set its own rules however it likes as a collection of private citizens. When the government steps in there will be issues with conflicting with the BoR.
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#taijitu_tavern can set its own rules however it likes as a collection of private citizens. When the government steps in there will be issues with conflicting with the BoR.
Who sets those rules though? You make it seem like any collection of private citizens can decide "this is what we want the room to be" but it seems rather...exclusionary about who gets OP status. Including citizens who have no interest in RP. Which is odd given what the room was founded for. It just seems like an extension of the main #taijitu channel, where you have your OPs who are OPs just because. With no concern for what the room should be for.
Which, again, is clearly stated to be for rp and world building discussion.
Ultimately I would just like to see #taijitu_tavern live up to its stated purpose. To answer an earlier question from Funk. That's how it'll help the region. By providing Taijitu role players and world builders a dedicated Taijitu-aligned IRC channel.
I'm not proposing a massive change or shift here. Simply recognition for what the channel should be anyway.
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Taijitu Tavern can do as it wants as a collective as it is a group of individuals in a room unrelated to the Taijitu government. If I create a channel called #taijtu_funhouse for the purpose of semi-privately doing Taijitu related stand up comedy over text form, would that be just as susceptible to government takeover? Shouldn't #taijitu also be susceptible to takeover because it is Taijitu discussion? I don't see where the line should end.
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Taijitu Tavern can do as it wants as a collective as it is a group of individuals in a room unrelated to the Taijitu government. If I create a channel called #taijtu_funhouse for the purpose of privately doing Taijitu related stand up comedy over text form, would that be just as susceptible to government takeover? Shouldn't #taijitu also be susceptible to takeover because it is Taijitu discussion? I don't see where the line should end.
If you created #taijitu_funhouse for private standup only to have it turn into something else all together and have it abused? Then yes, you wouldn't be out of line to suggest that the region step in to ensure that it serves the purpose you intended.
#taijitu_tavern is supposed to exist for rp/world building purposes. I'm simply suggesting that this seemingly universally recognized fact be codified to ensure that Taijitu role players can count on having a Taijitu-aligned IRC channel to call their own. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is a controversial position. To ensure that the space set aside for a group of people actually be set aside for that group.
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Government takeover of IRC channels has always been controversial. If your position was so uncontroversial, I believe we'd see many other regions legislate chat rooms, but that's simply not the case, because of the issues it can present.
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Again though, this is a room whose own description already calls for it to be the exclusive home for Taijitu world building and rpers. As someone who belongs to that group? I would very much like to see that this designation is properly respected.
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I think having a formal place for RP'ers to meet and chat is perfectly fine. That said, I'm very uncomfortable about forcibly co-opting what was a private channel, even if it was intended for that purpose, to do so without the consent of the channel's users. I agree that doing so would impinge on the freedoms of speech and association guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and set the wrong precedent.
I personally I okay with fully, returning #taijitu_tavern to its original purpose, but I can't speak for others and if they would prefer it remain a private institution, I think it would be better to simply create a new IRC channel from scratch ('#taijitu_rp' for example is unused) as a public institution specifically for the purpose.
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Legislating rules for IRC channels has never been a good idea, and it is not a good idea now.
I would also like to point out the second part of the description that is apparently being ignored "Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only." I joined it as a citizen-only channel because #taijitu includes people from half of NS at this point.
And before my post gets jumped on - I welcome more RP-talk in the channel. Though I don't write, I still enjoy taijitu's writing. All it takes is people to show up and ...well... talk about RP.
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I agree with Prydania for the most part on this. For general purpose "freedom of speech" type crap there is, and has always been the main room. What Prydania is suggesting here, since there have been "incidents" in which the room got horribly off topic and butt hurt ensued, is that a proper dividing line be set up so that all of the general banter is kept where it should be, in #taijitu.
The alternative being that the room become moderated, heavily, to ensure that the RP community has a place of their own where their banter wont disrupt general convo and NSGP discussion and vice versa. Either way people are going to find something to complain about. I say fuck it, bring it to a vote and lets get the shit settled.
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We don't need to make this a law of sorts, or make someone oversee it.
We can simply moderate others ourselves and remind others to stay on task. If someone talks about something other than RP on the Tavern, just remind them that they should go to the public channel to continue. That simple! :)
I have to agree with this. Shouldn't be too hard. :tai:
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Just a message to everyone including myself who made #taijitu_tavern a shittalking room...
Give it the fuck up. We need to reverse its image as a place to shit talk other people in Taijitu, a law would just help do that. Sure we could without the Ecclesia, but it still has the stench of the past to it to me at least.
Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
Also say what you want, but you fucks including myself still turned this RP-only channel into a Cabal-craptastic fest of gameplay oriented bullshit. I'd rather make amends with the Taijituan Citizens and surrender its authority and regulation to it. Whatever you have to say about regulating an IRC channel with the legislative is bullshit, because this isn't the main channel, it's just a side channel. We are not discussing any other IRC channel other than #taijitu_tavern. So say what you want, but I'm tired of the tavern's stigma because despite trying to make it a public channel it's still populated by game play shit. Talk about game play somewhere else, and I don't resent or hate people who do gameplay, but I just don't like it ... in the RP channel...
Sure. Talk about game play in the main thread, make another cabal channel somewhere else, I don't care. Just leave the tavern to the worldbuilders, is that so fucking hard. Are you such dipshits that you're going to claw away at this in the name of free speech? I'd like a channel for freedom from certain speech, without the unwelcoming stigma it still has.
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As someone who was complicit in the unpleasant things said in #taijitu_tavern, I have no desire to hang on to it so that it can be kept using like that. I think we're all in agreement that that was destructive and shouldn't happen again.
But we're still talking about the idea that it's okay for the government to seize IRC channels if people use them in a questionable way. That's not a road we should be going down (and is futile because no matter what people can always chat with each other outside of the forum or official IRC's if they feel like it).
We can just as easily accomplish the goal of ending the badmouthing behind closed doors and setting up proper RP discussion room by making a new, fresh IRC channel and just letting #taijitu_tavern die out. Let's let sleeping dogs lie and start fresh. #taijitu_tavern has been too marred by its misuse at this point to be a good choice.
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I don't think telling anyone their opinions are invalid fosters healthy debate.
I also am not passing judgment on the intent of the law at this time, only its legality and practicality. I suppose in the end it's a moot point since we never established a constitutional court.
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Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
Well that was a fun call out that chose to ignore the entirety of my post. I will repost for your benefit. I may not RP, but I imagine that reading would be a useful skill to have in a collaborative writing endeavor.
Legislating rules for IRC channels has never been a good idea, and it is not a good idea now.
I would also like to point out the second part of the description that is apparently being ignored "Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only." I joined it as a citizen-only channel because #taijitu includes people from half of NS at this point.
And before my post gets jumped on - I welcome more RP-talk in the channel. Though I don't write, I still enjoy taijitu's writing. All it takes is people to show up and ...well... talk about RP.
My point of it as a citizen-only channel stands.
My point about other people being able to talk about RP also stands.
I suppose this does beg the question - if my presence is truly frightening enough to stop any RP-related conversation in its tracks, what other venues do you intend to ban me from? This forum (where RPs are posted)? The region (where RPers are recruited from)?
Most other players do not seem to find me to be that scary. The first examples that comes to mind are all those conversations about the IC languages (which I found interesting).
The line about my OP seems rather misplaced. We tend to OP everyone, I have proven myself to be excessively fair in moderation duties (for example, I accept individuals who demonstrate sustained and willful intellectual dishonesty - without banning them for trolling), and I do not believe I have ever abused that power (I welcome evidence to the contrary).
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I motion to vote:
The Taijitu_Tavern Shittalk IRC Room Ban Act:
Considering and valuing all the efforts made to establish #Taijitu_Tavern as an RP oriented room to shift away from ill uses;
Recollecting the Tavern-Gate where many of our self-highly-regarded members were included in despicable discussions shit talking about other Taijituans;
Realizing that despite all efforts this channel still has the stigma of being a place to foul mouth about fellow Taijituans and our Allies as well as not serving the RP oriented purpose while being dominated by GamePlay discussion that those Traitor Babies keep undermining the efforts to clean the Tavern's reputation;
The Ecclesia hereby demands:
1. Lock-Down and/or Elimination of #Taijitu_Tavern
2. Ban to all Citizens joining in #Taijitu_Tavern or any revival attempts.
3. All those included in the shitttalking will have the special forum tag saying "Traitor Baby"
4. Guillotine Traitor Babies Myroria and Funkadelia for not even following through with their "hiatus" as they themselves proposed after Tavern-Gate.
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As for RP discussion, we've ALWAYS used the main #Taijitu channel for RP discussion, it's a good way to keep activity in the Channel so I'd suggest we reinforce #Taijitu as a good medium to connect with Taijis, specially for RP discussion.
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Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
There are so many things wrong with that statement.
1. As Dyr's reiterated, he's interested in our RP discussions, he just won't RP his own nation.
2. Of all the guilty parties of venting about others in #taijitu_tavern, I believe Dyr Nasad is one of the least guilty. I suspect I was more guilty of it than he. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though, Dyr.)
I'm flabbergasted that you'd do this.
On the main point, I don't understand what prompted this. There's nothing stopping people using #taijitu_tavern for RP discussion. It's been used for it a great deal. I haven't heard it associated with badmouthing people in weeks, if not months.
Where's this initiative coming from?
I motion to vote:
The Taijitu_Tavern Shittalk IRC Room Ban Act:
Considering and valuing all the efforts made to establish #Taijitu_Tavern as an RP oriented room to shift away from ill uses;
Recollecting the Tavern-Gate where many of our self-highly-regarded members were included in despicable discussions shit talking about other Taijituans;
Realizing that despite all efforts this channel still has the stigma of being a place to foul mouth about fellow Taijituans and our Allies as well as not serving the RP oriented purpose while being dominated by GamePlay discussion that those Traitor Babies keep undermining the efforts to clean the Tavern's reputation;
The Ecclesia hereby demands:
1. Lock-Down and/or Elimination of #Taijitu_Tavern
2. Ban to all Citizens joining in #Taijitu_Tavern or any revival attempts.
3. All those included in the shitttalking will have the special forum tag saying "Traitor Baby"
4. Guillotine Traitor Babies Myroria and Funkadelia for not even following through with their "hiatus" as they themselves proposed after Tavern-Gate.
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As for RP discussion, we've ALWAYS used the main #Taijitu channel for RP discussion, it's a good way to keep activity in the Channel so I'd suggest we reinforce #Taijitu as a good medium to connect with Taijis, specially for RP discussion.
No. Just...
Gameplay is just as valid a Taijituan affair as Roleplay is. Neither should be stigmatized.
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I motion to vote:
The Taijitu_Tavern Shittalk IRC Room Ban Act:
Considering and valuing all the efforts made to establish #Taijitu_Tavern as an RP oriented room to shift away from ill uses;
Recollecting the Tavern-Gate where many of our self-highly-regarded members were included in despicable discussions shit talking about other Taijituans;
Realizing that despite all efforts this channel still has the stigma of being a place to foul mouth about fellow Taijituans and our Allies as well as not serving the RP oriented purpose while being dominated by GamePlay discussion that those Traitor Babies keep undermining the efforts to clean the Tavern's reputation;
The Ecclesia hereby demands:
1. Lock-Down and/or Elimination of #Taijitu_Tavern
2. Ban to all Citizens joining in #Taijitu_Tavern or any revival attempts.
3. All those included in the shitttalking will have the special forum tag saying "Traitor Baby"
4. Guillotine Traitor Babies Myroria and Funkadelia for not even following through with their "hiatus" as they themselves proposed after Tavern-Gate.
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As for RP discussion, we've ALWAYS used the main #Taijitu channel for RP discussion, it's a good way to keep activity in the Channel so I'd suggest we reinforce #Taijitu as a good medium to connect with Taijis, specially for RP discussion.
I'm not putting up with this shit anymore. I've made my apologies. Maybe the reason this region turned to such shit is because of everyone's toxic disgusting attitude. Good luck, guys. I'm sure it will turn out great.
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Maybe the reason this region turned to such shit is because of everyone's toxic disgusting attitude.
Amen.
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As you know, citizen Delfos, in this region we remove people by ostracism, not by being written into a bill. :)
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I don't think Citizen-Delfos wants to remove certain people from the region, both you and Myro get a lot of shit for things, and arguably more than you deserve, the two of you are actually valued members of the region(though maybe not by Delfos, though who cares about his opinions, amirite?) Ostracism can be fun for the people doing it, having been on the side being ostracized, it is far from pleasant to watch people you like, and thought liked you just either ignore, or do things against you.
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As you know, citizen Delfos, in this region we remove people by ostracism, not by being written into a bill. :)
(https://johnnycullen.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/christ-pratt-oh-snap-gif.gif?w=470&h=376)
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But...but...I don't want to ostracize people, I just want to cut their heads off.
:guillotine:
I didn't mean to offend you.
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The line about my OP seems rather misplaced. We tend to OP everyone...
Just a correction here.
No. No we don't. I've been an on-and-off member of this region since almost, if not exactly, day one. I'm STILL not automatically OP'd in Taijitu IRC channels.
Not that I'm complaining, 'cause that's not my intent at all. Just sort of pointing it out. We don't OP everyone.
Well that was a fun call out that chose to ignore the entirety of my post. I will repost for your benefit. I may not RP, but I imagine that reading would be a useful skill to have in a collaborative writing endeavor.
Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
There are so many things wrong with that statement.
1. As Dyr's reiterated, he's interested in our RP discussions, he just won't RP his own nation.
No one's demanding Dyr exit the channel entirely. At least not from how I'm taking things.
If he wants to read RP discussions then he should be free to come on in, take a seat, and read what people have to say.
The problem is the OP thing. A IRC channel dedicated to Taijitu RPers and world builders shouldn't be controlled by people who have stated they have no interest in RPing themselves.
If Dyr wants to come in and read what's being discussed? All the power to him. He shouldn't have authority over people actually there to RP and world build though. Regardless of how responsible he's proven himself as a mod in other Taijitu IRC rooms.
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OP and +O flags aren't the same thing. We do OP everyone, at least we try to. I don't remember if I have the ability to change flags, but only a few of us do, so auto flags aren't always assigned. And as I remember, you did have those flags for quite some time, but you hadn't signed in so long that your nick probably became de registered, which removes flags. In general, we try to OP everyone when we get the chance, which is different from most channels that selectively choose their OPs.
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OP and +O flags aren't the same thing. We do OP everyone, at least we try to. I don't remember if I have the ability to change flags, but only a few of us do, so auto flags aren't always assigned. And as I remember, you did have those flags for quite some time, but you hadn't signed in so long that your nick probably became de registered, which removes flags. In general, we try to OP everyone when we get the chance, which is different from most channels that selectively choose their OPs.
I don't recall ever having them, but that's neither here or there. The desire to OP everyone exists in the main #taijitu room.
This discussion is about #taijitu_tavern. It's always been about #taijitu_tavern. And I've never seen the same desire to OP everyone in that room. Now that's fine, really. It's just that if the room is going to have limited OPs? Those Ops should be world builders and RPers.
No offence to Dyr. His track record with OP powers in the main #taijitu room is indeed admirable. It's just that he really shouldn't have OP status in a room supposedly dedicated to RPers and world builders. Again, not a shot against him. I have no issue with him coming in if he wants to read take in what others are saying. He just shouldn't have the authority to moderate a room dedicated to a niche he himself has admitted he has no interest in participating in.
Much like how you guys shouldn't be expected to give me OP privileges in a hypothetical #taijitu_gameplay room.
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I think OP issues should be discussed with the channel owners then, perhaps.
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I think OP issues should be discussed with the channel owners then, perhaps.
Well my goal with this discussion was to draw attention to the fact that the designated IRC channel for Taijitu's RPers and world builders was being neglected. The OP issues go along with that.
I'm not putting up with this shit anymore. I've made my apologies. Maybe the reason this region turned to such shit is because of everyone's toxic disgusting attitude. Good luck, guys. I'm sure it will turn out great.
I agree with this sentiment. I know that past events have tarnished #taijitu_tavern and that it's going to be impossible to divorce that from a discussion on the channel completely.
I don't want to drag past incidents up though. I want to talk about the future of the channel. As far as I'm concerned? Past incidents involving it are only important in so far as why I would like to see the channel redeemed, by returning it to its original and intended use.
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On the main point, I don't understand what prompted this. There's nothing stopping people using #taijitu_tavern for RP discussion. It's been used for it a great deal. I haven't heard it associated with badmouthing people in weeks, if not months.
I'll do my best to answer as the person who raised this concern.
Taijitu has a strong RP and world building citizen base. And that sizeable group of people ought to have a space on IRC to discuss role playing and world building. #taijitu_tavern is, theoretically, that place. There are problems, however, in its current state.
The first is reputation. There's been unpleasantness that has soured many people to the idea of the room itself. What I'm calling for is essentially a symbolic gesture by the government of the region to officially state that it is the role play and world building channel. That it's for that purpose and only that purpose. And that anyone who wants to discuss those aspects of Taijitu can feel welcome coming in there.
The second is the OP status. As I said above it's unfair to give OP status to people who have expressly stated they have no desire to RP and world build. Again, they should be free to come in and read/listen if they want. They shouldn't, however, have the authority to moderate those that are there to role play and world build. Regardless of how spotless their track-records as OPs are.
Gulliver pointed out the possibility of just creating #taijitu_rp or a similarly named room. The idea is fine in theory. I just don't see the point of doing that if we have a room theoretically for role players and world builders. Let's reform the one we have rather then build a second one.
Gameplay is just as valid a Taijituan affair as Roleplay is. Neither should be stigmatized.
I agree. Entirely.
Which is why I'm asking for a dedicated space for Taijitu's role players and world builders on IRC. In a place that's already, theoretically, been set aside for them.
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As someone who was complicit in the unpleasant things said in #taijitu_tavern, I have no desire to hang on to it so that it can be kept using like that. I think we're all in agreement that that was destructive and shouldn't happen again.
But we're still talking about the idea that it's okay for the government to seize IRC channels if people use them in a questionable way. That's not a road we should be going down (and is futile because no matter what people can always chat with each other outside of the forum or official IRC's if they feel like it).
We can just as easily accomplish the goal of ending the badmouthing behind closed doors and setting up proper RP discussion room by making a new, fresh IRC channel and just letting #taijitu_tavern die out. Let's let sleeping dogs lie and start fresh. #taijitu_tavern has been too marred by its misuse at this point to be a good choice.
But isn't that the grandest of Taijitu traditions? If there's any issue or question about something...legislate the hell out of it.
Perhaps just a... a room preservation act. A simple declaration by the Ecclesia that the tavern is to be kept and used for its intended purpose only while asking those who hold op status in the room and are not engaged in RP to relinquish said unwarranted status.
The only reason that this was brought up was basically because some were going over reasons why we can't have nice things. And this was on the list.
Or... alternatively.. the room could be refounded, the old one abandoned and strict moderation be placed in the new. After all.. there's no law saying that we cant *shrugs*
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I motion to vote:
The Taijitu_Tavern Shittalk IRC Room Ban Act:
Considering and valuing all the efforts made to establish #Taijitu_Tavern as an RP oriented room to shift away from ill uses;
Recollecting the Tavern-Gate where many of our self-highly-regarded members were included in despicable discussions shit talking about other Taijituans;
Realizing that despite all efforts this channel still has the stigma of being a place to foul mouth about fellow Taijituans and our Allies as well as not serving the RP oriented purpose while being dominated by GamePlay discussion that those Traitor Babies keep undermining the efforts to clean the Tavern's reputation;
The Ecclesia hereby demands:
1. Lock-Down and/or Elimination of #Taijitu_Tavern
2. Ban to all Citizens joining in #Taijitu_Tavern or any revival attempts.
3. All those included in the shitttalking will have the special forum tag saying "Traitor Baby"
4. Guillotine Traitor Babies Myroria and Funkadelia for not even following through with their "hiatus" as they themselves proposed after Tavern-Gate.
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As for RP discussion, we've ALWAYS used the main #Taijitu channel for RP discussion, it's a good way to keep activity in the Channel so I'd suggest we reinforce #Taijitu as a good medium to connect with Taijis, specially for RP discussion.
No Delfos. Just no. Stop being a fucking troll.
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*sighs*
Pry - with our recent conversations and your other recent posts on this forum, I was honestly looking forward to your eventual post in this thread, particularly after those rather ridiculous posts by both Oz and Delfos. That you chose to ignore the bitterness and toxicity and instead provide a "correction" (an incorrect one, by the way, as Funk pointed out. Taijitu's channels are some of the few NS channels where everyone is regularly OPed - excluding the military channel where +m is actually needed) really disappoints me.
This discussion is about #taijitu_tavern. It's always been about #taijitu_tavern. And I've never seen the same desire to OP everyone in that room.
Seen in your how many minutes in the channel? Minutes where how much conversation was going on? Where how many OPs were asked about giving out more OP powers?
Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
No one's demanding Dyr exit the channel entirely. At least not from how I'm taking things.
If he wants to read RP discussions then he should be free to come on in, take a seat, and read what people have to say.
I will, for the umpteenth time, give people the benefit of the doubt here. How are you "taking things?" What does "stopped connecting [to the IRC channel]" mean to you other than to "exit the channel entirely." And to fix the only loophole here - I do not use a bouncer, which is well-known (and you and Oz do not either), so reconnecting is a necessity. I look forward to your response.
The problem is the OP thing. A IRC channel dedicated to Taijitu RPers and world builders shouldn't be controlled by people who have stated they have no interest in RPing themselves.
If Dyr wants to come in and read what's being discussed? All the power to him. He shouldn't have authority over people actually there to RP and world build though. Regardless of how responsible he's proven himself as a mod in other Taijitu IRC rooms.
Authority. Control. Power. Good to know what all this nonsense is about. I suppose this is where I ask my earlier question (that went unanswered) - why do you find me so frightening?
I will reiterate my earlier point (that also remains unaddressed) that the tavern has long been marketed as a citizens-only channel in addition to its RP-related functions. It says so in the topic "Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only" that you all are so fond of quoting. I am a citizen. I have proven my ability to read. I have proven my ability to deal with rather consistent, and illogical, hostility.
2. Of all the guilty parties of venting about others in #taijitu_tavern, I believe Dyr Nasad is one of the least guilty. I suspect I was more guilty of it than he. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though, Dyr.)
I am not going to compare our relative roles :P but I said nothing in the tavern that I would not say elsewhere.
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Has this region become so high on the odor of its own flatulence that a simple proposal can't be discussed without trolling and bullshit?
Put your big boy pants on, kids.
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Heres a healthy debate rebuttal, Dyr is an GP elitist prick. Therefore I ignore whatever he says entirely.
Maybe when the proposal is for gameplay related policies I might give a damn what you say, but you're just a son of a bitch who scoffs at members of this community and won't participate in it except to show how important you are. I'm saying nobody has any reason to claw on to this channels "self regulation" because it clearly isn't working, and its just a worm farm for fishermen still.
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Realizing that despite all efforts this channel still has the stigma of being a place to foul mouth about fellow Taijituans and our Allies as well as not serving the RP oriented purpose
Lock-Down and/or Elimination of #Taijitu_Tavern
As for RP discussion, we've ALWAYS used the main #Taijitu channel for RP discussion, it's a good way to keep activity in the Channel so I'd suggest we reinforce #Taijitu as a good medium to connect with Taijis, specially for RP discussion.
No Delfos. Just no. Stop being a fucking troll.
I'm pretty sure people can see the points I clearly wanted to make, if not then they don't deserve the time to explain the points. Just read what I quoted, the rest is just about some guys losing their cool for lack of moral authority. Oh, you too Dyr?
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*sighs*
Pry - with our recent conversations and your other recent posts on this forum, I was honestly looking forward to your eventual post in this thread, particularly after those rather ridiculous posts by both Oz and Delfos. That you chose to ignore the bitterness and toxicity and instead provide a "correction" (an incorrect one, by the way, as Funk pointed out. Taijitu's channels are some of the few NS channels where everyone is regularly OPed - excluding the military channel where +m is actually needed) really disappoints me.
Well Dyr, I'm sorry to have disappointed you. In my defence? I wasn't looking to impress you- or anyone else- either. I'm looking to establish a recognized space for a niche that I am a part of. If you're taking that as a campaign against you, I do apologize. It's not about targeting you. It's about giving us a space that should already be for us.
As for bitterness? I'm tired of bitterness. I'd very much like to discuss the issues raised without getting into that sort of thing.
This discussion is about #taijitu_tavern. It's always been about #taijitu_tavern. And I've never seen the same desire to OP everyone in that room.
Seen in your how many minutes in the channel? Minutes where how much conversation was going on? Where how many OPs were asked about giving out more OP powers?
heh. Look Dyr, you keep asking why you're "frightening." You're not. Not to me, at any rate. I've never had an issue with you before either. I would ask that you do your part in ensuring one doesn't develop.
Despite my absences in the past? I've been with this region since the start. And that's not said to "raise my stock." Only to illustrate to you that I've been around this region, and the #taijitu_tavern room, longer then what you've seen of me there over the past week or so.
Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
No one's demanding Dyr exit the channel entirely. At least not from how I'm taking things.
If he wants to read RP discussions then he should be free to come on in, take a seat, and read what people have to say.
I will, for the umpteenth time, give people the benefit of the doubt here. How are you "taking things?" What does "stopped connecting [to the IRC channel]" mean to you other than to "exit the channel entirely." And to fix the only loophole here - I do not use a bouncer, which is well-known (and you and Oz do not either), so reconnecting is a necessity. I look forward to your response.
I don't care if you want to stop into the channel to read what RPers and world builders are saying Dyr. I really don't.
You're just not in any position to moderate any room dedicated to subject matter you've admitted to having no interest participating in.
The problem is the OP thing. A IRC channel dedicated to Taijitu RPers and world builders shouldn't be controlled by people who have stated they have no interest in RPing themselves.
If Dyr wants to come in and read what's being discussed? All the power to him. He shouldn't have authority over people actually there to RP and world build though. Regardless of how responsible he's proven himself as a mod in other Taijitu IRC rooms.
Authority. Control. Power. Good to know what all this nonsense is about. I suppose this is where I ask my earlier question (that went unanswered) - why do you find me so frightening?
Frightening? No, not frightening.
You want to accuse me, or Oz, of omitting parts of your posts. You want to talk about your own intellectual honesty.
Well how many times have I bent over backwards to make it abundantly clear that this isn't about attacking you. Or your track record on IRC?
It's not about power or control either. For G-d's sake. It's an IRC channel. How much power is really involved?
No, this is about the principal of the matter Dyr. And the fact is that, your interest aside, you've made it clear that you have no desire to partake in Taijitu role play and world building.
I don't think I'm asking too much when I say that the OPs in a room dedicated to world building and role play should be role players and world builders. I shouldn't be an OP in a room about NS gameplay. You shouldn't be an OP in a room about RP.
I will reiterate my earlier point (that also remains unaddressed) that the tavern has long been marketed as a citizens-only channel in addition to its RP-related functions. It says so in the topic "Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only" that you all are so fond of quoting. I am a citizen. I have proven my ability to read. I have proven my ability to deal with rather consistent, and illogical, hostility.
I think understanding that a position in opposition to your own doesn't make that position "illogical" might be a good way to get this discussion on a more mutually respectful path.
Further, the description is quite clear. "Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel."
Again, if you would like to come in as a citizen who is interested in role play? You should be free to do that. You shouldn't have OP privileges though. Not if you're not interested in world building and role playing. That's not a power thing. That's a common sense thing.
Or to put it differently? Why do you want OP status in a room dedicated to a part of Taijitu you've stated you have no interested in taking part in?
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Has this region become so high on the odor of its own flatulence that a simple proposal can't be discussed without trolling and bullshit?
Put your big boy pants on, kids.
I suppose this is where I have to ask how my post was trolling (I assume that your comment was directed at my post because it was the one since your last response in this thread). I try to take part in civil debate and would like to clear any possible misunderstandings.
Heres a healthy debate rebuttal, Dyr is an GP elitist prick. Therefore I ignore whatever he says entirely.
Maybe when the proposal is for gameplay related policies I might give a damn what you say, but you're just a son of a bitch who scoffs at members of this community and won't participate in it except to show how important you are. I'm saying nobody has any reason to claw on to this channels "self regulation" because it clearly isn't working, and its just a worm farm for fishermen still.
I may be elitist (which is a different conversation entirely, and one unrelated to NS), but I am not "an GP elitist." I also do not "scoffs at members of this community" - I try to accept all members of the community. The same cannot be said of you (your history aside, your posts here speak volumes).
*sighs*
Pry - with our recent conversations and your other recent posts on this forum, I was honestly looking forward to your eventual post in this thread, particularly after those rather ridiculous posts by both Oz and Delfos. That you chose to ignore the bitterness and toxicity and instead provide a "correction" (an incorrect one, by the way, as Funk pointed out. Taijitu's channels are some of the few NS channels where everyone is regularly OPed - excluding the military channel where +m is actually needed) really disappoints me.
Well Dyr, I'm sorry to have disappointed you. In my defence? I wasn't looking to impress you- or anyone else- either. I'm looking to establish a recognized space for a niche that I am a part of. If you're taking that as a campaign against you, I do apologize. It's not about targeting you. It's about giving us a space that should already be for us.
I did not mean to suggest that impressing me was a meaningful goal. Merely that I had hoped that you would call out hate where it occurred.
This discussion is about #taijitu_tavern. It's always been about #taijitu_tavern. And I've never seen the same desire to OP everyone in that room.
Seen in your how many minutes in the channel? Minutes where how much conversation was going on? Where how many OPs were asked about giving out more OP powers?
heh. Look Dyr, you keep asking why you're "scary." You're not. Not to me, at any rate. I've never had an issue with you before either. I would ask that you do your part in ensuring one doesn't develop.
Despite my absences in the past? I've been with this region since the start. And that's not said to "raise my stock." Only to illustrate to you that I've been around this region, and the #taijitu_tavern room, longer then what you've seen of me there over the past week or so.
ChanServ- Registered : Dec 03 21:54:08 2014 is the information for this incarnation of the tavern. All of my comments have been about this incarnation - including references to the specific channel topic and general subject matter.
Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
No one's demanding Dyr exit the channel entirely. At least not from how I'm taking things.
If he wants to read RP discussions then he should be free to come on in, take a seat, and read what people have to say.
I will, for the umpteenth time, give people the benefit of the doubt here. How are you "taking things?" What does "stopped connecting [to the IRC channel]" mean to you other than to "exit the channel entirely." And to fix the only loophole here - I do not use a bouncer, which is well-known (and you and Oz do not either), so reconnecting is a necessity. I look forward to your response.
I don't care if you want to stop into the channel to read what RPers and world builders are saying Dyr. I really don't.
You're just not in any position to moderate any room dedicated to subject matter you've admitted to having no interest participating in.
I guess I could have hoped :( if I am being unclear, I find issue with your idea that no one wants me gone.
The problem is the OP thing. A IRC channel dedicated to Taijitu RPers and world builders shouldn't be controlled by people who have stated they have no interest in RPing themselves.
If Dyr wants to come in and read what's being discussed? All the power to him. He shouldn't have authority over people actually there to RP and world build though. Regardless of how responsible he's proven himself as a mod in other Taijitu IRC rooms.
Authority. Control. Power. Good to know what all this nonsense is about. I suppose this is where I ask my earlier question (that went unanswered) - why do you find me so frightening?
Frightening? No, not frightening.
You want to accuse me, or Oz, of omitting parts of your posts. You want to talk about your own intellectual honesty.
Well how many times have I bent over backwards to make it abundantly clear that this isn't about attacking you. Or your track record on IRC?
It's not about power or control either. For G-d's sake. It's an IRC channel. How much power is really involved?
No, this is about the principal of the matter Dyr. And the fact is that, your interest aside, you've made it clear that you have no desire to partake in Taijitu role play and world building.
I don't think I'm asking too much when I say that the OPs in a room dedicated to world building and role play should be role players and world builders. I shouldn't be an OP in a room about NS gameplay. You shouldn't be an OP in a room about RP.
You have done explained that that you did not attack me, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise. I did wish that you would not sit by as other members of the community are attacking me.
I will reiterate my earlier point (that also remains unaddressed) that the tavern has long been marketed as a citizens-only channel in addition to its RP-related functions. It says so in the topic "Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only" that you all are so fond of quoting. I am a citizen. I have proven my ability to read. I have proven my ability to deal with rather consistent, and illogical, hostility.
I think understanding that a position in opposition to your own doesn't make that position "illogical" might be a good way to get this discussion on a more mutually respectful path.
Further, the description is quite clear. "Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel."
Again, if you would like to come in as a citizen who is interested in role play? You should be free to do that. You shouldn't have OP privileges though. Not if you're not interested in world building and role playing. That's not a power thing. That's a common sense thing.
Or to put it differently? Why do you want OP status in a room dedicated to a part of Taijitu you've stated you have no interested in taking part in?
I am perfectly willing to accept opposition. The channel topic that I see is:
Topic for #taijitu_tavern is: Check out the map at map.taijitu.org | Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel | Check the userlist. Is Delfos here? RP TALK ONLY | Quote of the Day: <@Gulliver> What's Arabic for "spoopy" | Please do not share logs | Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only
This topic mentions that the channel is a citizens-only channel (as it had marketed to me when I joined, and that was mostly how the channel functioned recently). I am a citizen. That is a part of Taijitu that I am interested in.
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Why does the topic of the channel mentions me?
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Why does the topic of the channel mentions me?
It was a joke because you used to join the channel just to call us "Privileged assholes" or say "so much privilege" then leave.
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I did not mean to suggest that impressing me was a meaningful goal. Merely that I had hoped that you would call out hate where it occurred.
You mentioned our past convo on IRC.
It's in that spirit that I say this. I'm tired of the bitterness. All of us, each and every one of us, should be capable of carrying a discussion without resorting to trolling, bitterness, or outright hostility. That's not aimed at you Dyr. I'm just saying I'm sick of it. And so that's why I didn't call out the hate. I'm trying my very best to try and keep this train on the tracks. I would very much to ignore ALL bitterness here and simply focus on the issues at hand.
That's partly why I brought this up. To help move #Taijitu_Tavern beyond the bitterness that plagued it.
ChanServ- Registered : Dec 03 21:54:08 2014 is the information for this incarnation of the tavern. All of my comments have been about this incarnation - including references to the specific channel topic and general subject matter.
Continuing what I said above. I'm taking the broad view of the room's history. In all incarnations. And arguing that it should be returned to its stated function.
I guess I could have hoped :( if I am being unclear, I find issue with your idea that no one wants me gone.
If Oz wants you gone then that's between you and him. I don't want you gone. And I'm eventually going to propose legislation that, if passed, wouldn't expel you from the room.
Again, I'm trying to look past the bitterness and focus on the fact that you have OP status in a channel dedicated to something you have no interest taking an active part in. Surely you can see how some might see that as an issue?
You have done explained that that you did not attack me, and I did not mean to suggest otherwise. I did wish that you would not sit by as other members of the community are attacking me.
As I said, I'm focusing on the issue regarding the #taijitu_tavern room and making it a true place of Taijitu role players and world builders.
Everything else is just a distraction looking to derail the discussion.
I am perfectly willing to accept opposition. The channel topic that I see is:
Topic for #taijitu_tavern is: Check out the map at map.taijitu.org | Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel | Check the userlist. Is Delfos here? RP TALK ONLY | Quote of the Day: <@Gulliver> What's Arabic for "spoopy" | Please do not share logs | Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only
This topic mentions that the channel is a citizens-only channel (as it had marketed to me when I joined, and that was mostly how the channel functioned recently). I am a citizen. That is a part of Taijitu that I am interested in.
"Topic for #taijitu_tavern is: Check out the map at map.taijitu.org | Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel | Check the userlist. Is Delfos here? RP TALK ONLY | Quote of the Day: <@Gulliver> What's Arabic for "spoopy" | Please do not share logs | Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only"
^that's the topic. I don't think I'm stretching when I say that the primary gist of the topic, in its entirety, establishes that the channel is primarily for role players and world builders. You're getting hung up on the "citizens" part, and ignoring the clear intent to set the room up for RPers and world builders.
I have no problem with you stopping by Dyr. I just don't see why you should have OP status in a room dedicated to an aspect of Taijitu you have no interest in participating in.
And all the bitterness and hate aside- that's the point here. And I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
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Since some people are in the spirit of taking over chat rooms established by groups of individuals, maybe the next thing we can pass is legislation restricting access to and demanding control over the DEN Skype group, so we can end raiding once and for all! :)
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I am perfectly willing to accept opposition. The channel topic that I see is:
Topic for #taijitu_tavern is: Check out the map at map.taijitu.org | Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel | Check the userlist. Is Delfos here? RP TALK ONLY | Quote of the Day: <@Gulliver> What's Arabic for "spoopy" | Please do not share logs | Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only
This topic mentions that the channel is a citizens-only channel (as it had marketed to me when I joined, and that was mostly how the channel functioned recently). I am a citizen. That is a part of Taijitu that I am interested in.
"Topic for #taijitu_tavern is: Check out the map at map.taijitu.org | Taijitu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions only channel | Check the userlist. Is Delfos here? RP TALK ONLY | Quote of the Day: <@Gulliver> What's Arabic for "spoopy" | Please do not share logs | Taijitu worldbuilders/citizens only"
^that's the topic. I don't think I'm stretching when I say that the primary gist of the topic, in its entirety, establishes that the channel is primarily for role players and world builders. You're getting hung up on the "citizens" part, and ignoring the clear intent to set the room up for RPers and world builders.
I have no problem with you stopping by Dyr. I just don't see why you should have OP status in a room dedicated to an aspect of Taijitu you have no interest in participating in.
And all the bitterness and hate aside- that's the point here. And I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
The clear intent was for the room to, in addition to its RP functions, be a citizens-only room.
May 16 20:13:08 * Now talking on #taijitu_tavern
May 16 20:13:08 * Topic for #taijitu_tavern is: Welcome to Taijitu Tavern! Need to get away from the main channel to discuss RP or anything else you desire? Come here! | TNP RP Quote of the Moment: "A ducat is a tenth of a plemp." | Quote of the Day: <@St_Oz> nasa found that mars had a massive ocean <@Gulliver> It was almost big enough for your mom to swim in, top Nasa scientists say | <MyroPhone> I want a weak legislature |
May 16 20:13:08 * Topic for #taijitu_tavern set by Myroria!~Myroria@cpe-76-179-221-193.maine.res.rr.com (Sat Apr 25 08:18:47 2015)
May 16 20:13:31 <Dyr> so many taijitu channels :P
May 16 20:13:53 -ChanServ- Information on #taijitu_tavern:
May 16 20:13:54 -ChanServ- Registered : Dec 03 21:54:08 2014 (23 weeks, 3 days, 02:19:44 ago)
May 16 20:13:54 -ChanServ- Mode lock : +npst
May 16 20:13:54 -ChanServ- Flags : VERBOSE_OPS FANTASY PRIVATE
May 16 20:13:54 -ChanServ- Prefix : ! (default)
May 16 20:13:54 -ChanServ- *** End of Info ***
May 16 20:14:59 <someone> lol
May 16 20:15:54 <someone2> yes
May 16 20:16:10 <someone2> no one who isn't taiji should ever be invited here, unlike (other channels removed)
May 16 20:16:20 <Dyr> ah
May 16 20:21:14 <someone3> Yes
May 16 20:23:47 <Dyr> makes sense, a lot of the #taijitu conversation is non-taijituans
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This is not what I wanted to wake up to. St Oz and Delfos, you're behavior in this thread is so beyond the line I don't even know where to begin.
And I have to echo Eluvatar's sentiment, why was this brought up now after we'd already gone through this ugly business with #taijitu_tavern and put it behind us? I can see the logic behind if the room's already there let's use it, but as Eluvatar noted the behind the back discussions had already ended weeks if not months ago. This proposal and discussion has been less about setting up a chat room and more about retribution
Funkadelia, Myroria and Dyr seemed to be getting singled out for whatever reason, but I'm just as guilty as they were, am also interested in GP and consider them my friends. And now this toxic discussion has driven one of them away. I don't want to jump ship, but if this region has decided it's going to devote it's legislative discussion to destroying groups of people which I'm a part of for past crimes for which they've already made amends or worse for imagined crimes, I'm not sure I see much point sticking around.
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Since some people are in the spirit of taking over chat rooms established by groups of individuals, maybe the next thing we can pass is legislation restricting access to and demanding control over the DEN Skype group, so we can end raiding once and for all! :)
#Taijitu_Tavern was established to be the place on IRC for Taijitu role players and world builders to meet and discuss role play and world building. I understand the sentiment, but I don't think it applies here.
We have a room supposedly dedicated to role play and world building. Currently run by people who have said they have little to no interest in role play and world building.
My preference would be to reform the room we have. By giving it a symbolic blessing as a room dedicated to Taijitu RP and world building and by ensuring that it's OP'd by people dedicated to that niche.
If that proves to be unreasonable? Then I'm not opposed to Gulliver's suggestion of a new room dedicated to role play. Provided that this...
We can just as easily accomplish the goal of ending the badmouthing behind closed doors and setting up proper RP discussion room by making a new, fresh IRC channel and just letting #taijitu_tavern die out. Let's let sleeping dogs lie and start fresh. #taijitu_tavern has been too marred by its misuse at this point to be a good choice.
...is carried out by the channel's owners.
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Why does the topic of the channel mentions me?
It was a joke because you used to join the channel just to call us "Privileged assholes" or say "so much privilege" then leave.
That is not true. After Tavern Gate I think it was Oz that wanted to turn the channel back to RP. I added the channel to auto-join
I "left" the channel after typing this while there was a some weird discussion about things completely unrelated to taijitu or the purpose of the channel:
"[03:52] <Delfos> and you want this to be an RP discussion channel?"
I kept it on auto-join until I realized that you kept joking about exactly what I said and not caring 1 bit to shape the channel back to RP oriented. Thank you very much.
In fact, it would be more honest to admit that it is a reference to when you and others bad mouthed other taijis, specially me, and I was not in the channel.
This is the core to what I based my proposal to scrap your little private room. No it won't stop you from creating a new one, but at least you'll understand how messed up those actions were.
Also Gulliver, I don't see how any of those "made amends", or how I am out of line in any way.
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And I have to echo Eluvatar's sentiment, why was this brought up now...
I've already answered Elu's question on that matter to the best of my abilities.
...after we'd already gone through this ugly business with #taijitu_tavern and put it behind us? I can see the logic behind if the room's already there let's use it, but as Eluvatar noted the behind the back discussions had already ended weeks if not months ago. This proposal and discussion has been less about setting up a chat room and more about retribution
As the person who raised this concern? This is most definitely NOT about retribution. At all. I thought I made that abundantly clear here (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/a-proposal-re-taijitu_tavern/msg162281/#msg162281).
Funkadelia, Myroria and Dyr seemed to be getting singled out for whatever reason, but I'm just as guilty as they were, am also interested in GP and consider them my friends. And now this toxic discussion has driven one of them away. I don't want to jump ship, but if this region has decided it's going to devote it's legislative discussion to destroying groups of people which I'm a part of for past crimes for which they've already made amends or worse for imagined crimes, I'm not sure I see much point sticking around.
As I said, I have no interest in digging up anything Myro or Funk may have done. I'm not interested in retribution re: that past incident. I wasn't even here, and from what I can tell? I wasn't even involved. I don't care about it.
I only care about an established, dedicated room for Taijitu's RPers. And #taijitu_tavern fits that bill. So I would rather reform it.
I wouldn't even say I'm singling out Dyr either. I have nothing against him. I just don't think someone with no interest in RP should have OP status in a RP channel.
Now Gulliver. I'm open to the idea of getting rid of #Taijitu_Tavern. If the owners (whoever they may be) make an effort to shut it down entirely. Getting a new RP room off the ground will be difficult if the old one is still active and being visited.
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Why does the topic of the channel mentions me?
It was a joke because you used to join the channel just to call us "Privileged assholes" or say "so much privilege" then leave.
That is not true. After Tavern Gate I think it was Oz that wanted to turn the channel back to RP. I added the channel to auto-join
I "left" the channel after typing this while there was a some weird discussion about things completely unrelated to taijitu or the purpose of the channel:
"[03:52] <Delfos> and you want this to be an RP discussion channel?"
I kept it on auto-join until I realized that you kept joking about exactly what I said and not caring 1 bit to shape the channel back to RP oriented. Thank you very much.
In fact, it would be more honest to admit that it is a reference to when you and others bad mouthed other taijis, specially me, and I was not in the channel.
Also Gulliver, I don't see how any of those "made amends", or how I am out of line in any way.
Ok well if you really want me to "make amends" despite the fact I've already apologized to the people who I'd needed to, I can just leave.
I've really been trying to make this work, despite the fact that this thread needlessly is bringing up wounds that were healing that have already been through a tumult months ago, but I just don't see it working. Some peoples' behavior thus far, despite some being founders and forum admins, is absolutely disgusting and I don't see a point in trying to reason if people would rather make personal digs at one another in attempts to discredit them or drive them from the region. Myroria has already left and he was one of the few who was recruiting for the region. If people just want to keep trying to bring up divisions that should instead be healing as a form of community building, so be it.
Prydania, I have absolutely no idea why you felt it necessary to bring this discussion up again. There is virtually no reason for you to have started this discussion especially when creating a chat room in esper is as easy as typing /join #channelname. This has done nothing but drive people apart, and it's brought out the ugliest in some people. The fact that you are continuing to stick to this topic despite the obvious turmoil it's bringing makes me seriously doubt the overtures you've made to some members of this community as to your desire to "look to the future" and "move on from past conflicts" despite the fact that this sort of discussion has done nothing but the opposite.
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Prydania, I have absolutely no idea why you felt it necessary to bring this discussion up again. There is virtually no reason for you to have started this discussion especially when creating a chat room in esper is as easy as typing /join #channelname.
I felt the need to bring it up because #taijitu_tavern already exists. I would rather reform the RP room we have. Rather then start a new room that would have to compete with #taijitu_tavern. The simplest solution is to fix what we have. Not start building something new.
This has done nothing but drive people apart, and it's brought out the ugliest in some people. The fact that you are continuing to stick to this topic despite the obvious turmoil it's bringing makes me seriously doubt the overtures you've made to some members of this community as to your desire to "look to the future" and "move on from past conflicts" despite the fact that this sort of discussion has done nothing but the opposite.
Look Funk. Gulliver. Myro. Anyone else who think I may have started this thread to troll people. Or get "crazies" to do my work for me.
I wasn't here when whatever this incident was happened. I've been told about it by a few people, and from I gather? I wasn't even mentioned. I have no reason to care who said what about who.
It feels like I've spent half of this thread bending over backwards to make it clear to you and everyone else that I'm not interested in digging old mistakes up.
I think OP issues should be discussed with the channel owners then, perhaps.
Well my goal with this discussion was to draw attention to the fact that the designated IRC channel for Taijitu's RPers and world builders was being neglected. The OP issues go along with that.
I'm not putting up with this shit anymore. I've made my apologies. Maybe the reason this region turned to such shit is because of everyone's toxic disgusting attitude. Good luck, guys. I'm sure it will turn out great.
I agree with this sentiment. I know that past events have tarnished #taijitu_tavern and that it's going to be impossible to divorce that from a discussion on the channel completely.
I don't want to drag past incidents up though. I want to talk about the future of the channel. As far as I'm concerned? Past incidents involving it are only important in so far as why I would like to see the channel redeemed, by returning it to its original and intended use.
Just as an example.
No, I brought this topic up for the same reason I'm sticking to it. Because as a Taijitu RPer I believe Taijitu RPers deserve a space to call their own on IRC. And the #taijitu_tavern room serves that purpose in theory. I was simply looking to reaffirm that as the room's function.
I'm deeply sorry if me simply wanting a channel for Taijitu RPers has caused other people to use the discussion as an excuse to attack fellow citizens. I'm no more in control of what Delfos or Oz says as you are.
Maybe I was wrong to expect this community to be able to talk about this channel? If so that's on me.
I'm sorry if you don't believe that Funk. Myro. Gulliver. But it's the truth. All I want is a RP channel for RPers. And I thought a thread about reforming the channel we have would be easier then trying to get a new channel off the ground.
That's all.
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To be clear, I never asked anybody to make amends. Nor I ever intended to bring up any wounds. Clearly people ask for them when you defend old work ignoring others that worked as hard as any of you to have some kind of high ground to make your point valid, so maybe we should drop some of those issues.
Sad puppy eyes gotta go, don't say anybody is attacking GPers, or that people want to devalue GP, if they want then that's their business. Stop saying "old farts" are being undermined because of Tavern Gate, no, you're just being treated the same way like the rest of us (or is it just me?), you're not a bloody victim.
Antiquity gotta go, coming from Lexicon can't be a thing anymore. BBB is new and has proven to want to work with the community, you can't say "this is not how we do things here" to new people... or to people that you don't like "As you know, Delfos, we do this way". What? I'm not Ecclesia? What the hell tradition? There's even people threatening to leave if we don't things their way, isn't that out of line? "I glue the fabric of reality of this region, if you don't follow my lead in GP I'll leave!" ...Jesus...
Ownership gotta go, if you don't want to be a dictator then let people play as equals amongst themselves. You have admin, you want admin, then be an admin, stop complaining that you are an admin and that you do all the work. Others might not have had that opportunity, the time to spend on this "community", or the patience to endure this hellish discussions.
The "Community" will be reinforced once you embrace that you can't have it all, otherwise people will feel that the invisible hand is not that invisible any more. That's what I think, treat people as people.
May this channel be free of prejudice or rid this channel from the planes of existence, you can do whatever you want, I feel that this forum thread clearly shows that taijitu_tavern isn't exactly what anybody expected it to be, sometimes it's better to create something new like Prydania is hinting, or create nothing at all and use what we already love and cherish.
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I think this thread has been closed. Enough damage has already been done.
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It seemed easier to reform #taijitu_tavern then to start a new IRC channel from scratch and get the word out. Not while #taijitu_tavern is still around, declaring to be the official room for Taijitu RP. It seemed easier to fix then to start anew.
That was a mistake on my part. A costly mistake, because it seems like others have used it as a means to attack Funk, Myro, Gulliver, and Dyr personally. And that was never my intent. All I wanted was a dedicated room for Taijitu RPers, run by Taijitu RPers.
And it's not worth it. Not worth keeping this discussion alive if people are going to feel betrayed or hurt by it. Too little too late yes, but I'm dropping this proposal.
I've registered a room. #taijitu_cabana. If you want to talk RP and world building? Head there.
To Gulliver, Funk, Myro, Dyr and anyone else who felt like others used this thread as a means to attack them? I'm sorry :(
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Sad puppy eyes gotta go, don't say anybody is attacking GPers, or that people want to devalue GP, if they want then that's their business. Stop saying "old farts" are being undermined because of Tavern Gate, no, you're just being treated the same way like the rest of us (or is it just me?), you're not a bloody victim.
To be clear, I never asked anybody to make amends. Nor I ever intended to bring up any wounds.
Oh really?
Also Gulliver, I don't see how any of those "made amends", or how I am out of line in any way.
Just a message to everyone including myself who made #taijitu_tavern a shittalking room...
Give it the fuck up. We need to reverse its image as a place to shit talk other people in Taijitu, a law would just help do that. Sure we could without the Ecclesia, but it still has the stench of the past to it to me at least.
Also Dyr, your opinion is invalid, since you're kinda the reason we need legislation on this channel. You've said on record that you don't do RP/worldbuidling and never will, yet you're an OP at #taijitu_tavern, sooooo. Maybe if you resigned and stopped connecting there we wouldn't need this legislation.
Also say what you want, but you fucks including myself still turned this RP-only channel into a Cabal-craptastic fest of gameplay oriented bullshit. I'd rather make amends with the Taijituan Citizens and surrender its authority and regulation to it. Whatever you have to say about regulating an IRC channel with the legislative is bullshit, because this isn't the main channel, it's just a side channel. We are not discussing any other IRC channel other than #taijitu_tavern. So say what you want, but I'm tired of the tavern's stigma because despite trying to make it a public channel it's still populated by game play shit. Talk about game play somewhere else, and I don't resent or hate people who do gameplay, but I just don't like it ... in the RP channel...
Sure. Talk about game play in the main thread, make another cabal channel somewhere else, I don't care. Just leave the tavern to the worldbuilders, is that so fucking hard. Are you such dipshits that you're going to claw away at this in the name of free speech? I'd like a channel for freedom from certain speech, without the unwelcoming stigma it still has.
So in short.
Community first.(yes this includes RP)
NS Gameplay second.
Every time we create a new thread something to deal with issues, it turns in to a heated argument,
where everybody is insulting each other. (I specifically blame Funk for this.) We never
get anything done when we propose these things as you can see:
http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/proposal-rewrite-all-officer-positions-then-hold-elections/
http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/a-master-proposal/
http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/let's-deal-with-the-inactivity!/
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END THIS DAMN THREAD ALREADY
Admin note: edited for excessive large text.
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03:34 -NickServ(NickServ@services.esper.net)- Prydainia is not registered.
You don't have auto-OPs because you can't be given them.
The second line of this post was removed because I thought better of it.
Edit: I wrote this reply without seeing some of the more recent replies. Whoops. Might indeed be a good idea to drop this topic.
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Late to this party and I know it's been expressed that this thread needs to end, but I think that's a mistake. Everyone should just cool down and come to a mutually agreeable solution.
I don't pretend to know what underlying grudges are being held here, but I hold none. I released my *outrage* in the VotP article regarding the Tavern, and even joined the channel a few times after to talk role play and had a great time discussing Greater War. Unfortunately, I don't make it on to IRC much, and though I have tried, I never seem to be on when the cool convos are taking place.
I say all that to say I am unattached to any underlying resentment on this topic. I don't think it is at all out of line to put this to a vote. Should the Taijitu Tavern be an "official" channel or not?
Argument for : channel's purpose was created for Taijitu roleplay, and without "official designation," turned into a slumber party gossip channel for the popular girls to dish. Giving it an "official" designation is a public agreement that we'll use it for its intended purpose.
Argument against: channel was created by individual(s) and cannot be co-opted by the "state." Further, government labeling it as "official" opens the door to regulate conversation in order to force channel to be used only for RP. Could start is down the path to a very un-Taijitu-like place.
I propose a vote on the initial question. I can understand the argument that the proposal is so wrong we shouldn't even vote on it, but I don't agree. Democracies vote to settle differences of opinion. Otherwise, you just have back and forth sniping over 2 days that could have been better spent doing something constructive. Or you have all out war. And I'm not sure which would be worse.
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03:34 -NickServ(NickServ@services.esper.net)- Prydainia is not registered.
You don't have auto-OPs because you can't be given them.
You added an extra "i" :P
The second line of this post was removed because I thought better of it.
Edit: I wrote this reply without seeing some of the more recent replies. Whoops. Might indeed be a good idea to drop this topic.
Again, I'm sincerely sorry something as benign as "let's ensure the RP room is in the hands of RPers" got as messy as it did. Despite what some people may be hell-bent on believing? I had only the best of intentions in mind.
I propose a vote on the initial question. I can understand the argument that the proposal is so wrong we shouldn't even vote on it, but I don't agree. Democracies vote to settle differences of opinion. Otherwise, you just have back and forth sniping over 2 days that could have been better spent doing something constructive. Or you have all out war. And I'm not sure which would be worse.
The only grudges I have are the ones being projected onto me by people who seem hell bent on me having a grudge with them. Which is frustrating because I've known most of those people since day one of the region. Or at least a good while back. And disagreement on policy aside? I have no desire to be angry at any of them. Or have them be angry at me.
My apologies if that came off tart. I've been trying to make amends for the fact that a discussion I started with the purest of intentions ended up like this. And I can only do that for so long before applogizing for something I didn't do, or didn't intend to happen, gets tiresome.
Anyway bbb...I do appreciate your desire to cut away the unpleasantness and stick to the issue at hand. It's just that the room #taijitu_cabana has been created. With the stated purpose of being a room Taijitu RPers. There's no need to hold a vote.
I find myself belatedly agreeing with Gulliver. Perhaps it's best if #taijitu_tavern goes away. I'm unsure who owns it, but I hope whoever does takes the proper steps to expedite that process. For the good of everyone.
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I don't think it is at all out of line to put this to a vote. Should the Taijitu Tavern be an "official" channel or not?
I believe we should be holding a larger ideological vote than this, should IRC channels or any other offsite branch of Taijitu be "official"/legislated? If yes we will then have to mark subsidiary official branches. If no then it won't matter and people can do what they want and have their popular girls room for shit talk without people feeling hurt about hurtful things being said or at least leave such feelings out of official discussions. Either way I'm happier about it.
Argument for : channel's purpose was created for Taijitu roleplay, and without "official designation," turned into a slumber party gossip channel for the popular girls to dish. Giving it an "official" designation is a public agreement that we'll use it for its intended purpose.
This made me laugh and smile immensely, love that it is considered the mean girls party. Thanks for making me smile.
Argument against: channel was created by individual(s) and cannot be co-opted by the "state." Further, government labeling it as "official" opens the door to regulate conversation in order to force channel to be used only for RP. Could start is down the path to a very un-Taijitu-like place.
Is becoming un-Taijitu-like a bad thing if what we have been is dysfunctional? Could such not lead to a redefinition of Taijitu-likeness? Are you Taiji-like, am I Taiji-unlike? One may never know.
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I propose the formation of an Ecclesiastic Committee on Desirable Untaijituan Activities. :P
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I find myself belatedly agreeing with Gulliver. Perhaps it's best if #taijitu_tavern goes away. I'm unsure who owns it, but I hope whoever does takes the proper steps to expedite that process. For the good of everyone.
Myroria owns the channel, and he is not in the region anymore. (http://www.nationstates.net/nation=myroria)
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Well damn now I need to go to TNP to talk to Myro...
/me wonders if this is a genius maneuver to get Taijis into inter-regionalism...
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I find myself belatedly agreeing with Gulliver. Perhaps it's best if #taijitu_tavern goes away. I'm unsure who owns it, but I hope whoever does takes the proper steps to expedite that process. For the good of everyone.
Myroria owns the channel, and he is not in the region anymore. (http://www.nationstates.net/nation=myroria)
This is one of the few things in NS that's actually managed to bum me out in a while.
That said, it lights even more of a fire under my butt to put things back on the right track.
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(http://i.imgur.com/eoYdKdP.png)
What the fuck is this? We don't have any rules of conduct in the Ecclesia.
Maybe we need a referendum on who gets to be admin and who doesn't.
Talk to me if you have a problem, don't send me a warning.
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it lights even more of a fire under my butt to put things back on the right track.
GULLIVER'S BUTT 2016!
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I considered splitting Oz' post into its own thread, but I think I will leave it here for continuity.
To anyone (bigbaldben? Khem?) who wishes to discuss the legal issue of legislating IRC channels, I recommend making a new thread to avoid cross-contamination with the other discussion going on here. I will make an effort to moderate the debate more closely if things stray off topic. If a motion is proposed and seconded, you can just post a vote after the mandatory consideration period as per the Ecclesia's rules (see here (http://forum.taijitu.org/the-ecclesia/legislative-index/msg156210/#msg156210)).
Late to this party and I know it's been expressed that this thread needs to end, but I think that's a mistake. Everyone should just cool down and come to a mutually agreeable solution.
I think this is an important point. Calming down without resolving a problem doesn't accomplish much.
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Late to this party and I know it's been expressed that this thread needs to end, but I think that's a mistake. Everyone should just cool down and come to a mutually agreeable solution.
I agree, and I'll cool down.
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As his RL best friend, I can tell you that Prydania's proposal here had nothing to do with retribution, nor did he wish to stir the shit pot. It's a sad thing that someone can't try to propose solutions to problems which have occurred without it causing everyone to lose their fucking minds and degenerate into such a state.
This is not the Taijitu I remember. This is a daycare full of mean spirited "me first" thinking. Shoulders around here have enough chips on them to give me firewood for the winter.
Seriously.... what is it going to take to get us to start acting with a bit more civility towards one another?
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1. The evil, undemocratic, self-interesed, elitist GPers in this thread have (correctly) pointed out that in general, regulating IRC channels has been a no-go in virtually every region.
The reason for that goes to the legislative competency (or jurisdiction) of NS legislatures. We generally don't tend to regulate the private conduct of our members. For example, you would not expect someone to suffer consequences due to their RL occupation, or something like that.
While clearly there is a nexus between the region and IRC channels that many of its users utilise, it still has nothing to do with the on-site region or the forum. Further, channel ownership belongs to an individual, and attempting to tell them how to best regulate something that is theirs is generally a bad idea. There may also be the types of legal or ethical issues that may arise that I highlighted in this post (http://forum.taijitu.org/general-discussion/request-for-comments-warning-policy/msg162395/).
The administration of IRC channels is generally complex, and trying to set-out specific rules may also backfire.
2. Every thread seems to have devolved into a "you're a terrible person" --> "this place used to be better" --> etc.
On this issue, the bigger-picture (as often) seems to be a recurring conflict between 'gameplayers' and 'roleplayers' (or 'non-gameplayers').
Honestly, this is not conducive to embettering the region, and should be tackled head-on.
Why is there some mistrust? Even rudeness and creating offense, sometimes to the point of vilification? What would people like to see change in the region? Ask yourself that, don't answer me. And maybe before the next big controversy, tackle these questions for the benefit of the whole region.
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On this issue, the bigger-picture (as often) seems to be a recurring conflict between 'gameplayers' and 'roleplayers' (or 'non-gameplayers').
Honestly, this is not conducive to embettering the region, and should be tackled head-on.
Why is there some mistrust?
Well Guy, condescending sentiments such as this...
1. The evil, undemocratic, self-interesed, elitist GPers in this thread have (correctly) pointed out that in general, regulating IRC channels has been a no-go in virtually every region.
...don't help ease those tensions.
As for this specific issue? It seems like a few of my fellow RPers didn't like the idea of a gameplayer like Dyr, a person who has gone on record saying he will never engage in RP, OP'ing the region's nominal RP-centric IRC channel.
To some of us? It was the principal of the matter. You wouldn't have a RPer moderate a gameplay channel or subforum. So why was the inverse ok?
To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.
What would people like to see change in the region? Ask yourself that, don't answer me.
Well Guy, I'm going to answer you.
I would like to see more trust, more mutual respect, between the various niches here. Gameplayers and role players are two prominent examples, but there are smaller, overlapping groups. And there seems to be a lot of tension between those divides. Made worse by the fact that these lines aren't so clear cut.
So how do we achieve this mutual respect? This trust? Well a lot of that is self-evident. Let's take you and I, Guy. You're a GPer and I'm a RPer. Beyond that though? We also fall into two other niches. You seem very pro-defender, and I'm of an independent mindset. Well a few days back we were discussing independentism on the main #taijitu channel and you described the independent ideology to that of a vulture. I don't think I need to go deeper here to explain why I may not have taken that in a positive way.
I bring that up because I think it's a perfect illustration of what's wrong here. Many of us just see each other as the personification of a label or ideology. You didn't see me as a person explaining how I feel about the raider vs defender dynamic, Guy. You saw me as a thing representing an ideology you disagreed with, and that made it ok in your mind to treat me rudely.
We're all guilty of it to some extent. That person is a GPer. Or a RPer. Or he's just an advocate for direct democracy. Or a strong central regional government. Or a social democrat. Or a conservative. Or a libertarian. Or a socialist. And that's a problem. When someone isn't seen as a person, just a personification of a label, it's easier to brush their concerns aside. Or dismiss their point of view. Or just treat them poorly in general.
So that's what I think we need to do here. Realise that everyone is someone. Not just a label. And if we start thinking of each other as people who are greater then the niches or ideologies we subscribe to? We just might start treating each other as people too.
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To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.
Give me one example of when this ever happened.
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To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.
Give me one example of when this ever happened.
Calming down and not reacting so hostile would help things along Funk. As I said earlier, I can't help it if you insist on having a grudge with me, but I'm trying to do what I can to make things less tense around here. You jumping down my throat at the smallest disagreement and demanding things isn't making this easier.
If you want examples? Here's Oz. It's a more rationale version of what he said earlier this thread that led to so much of this hurt.
I'm still resentful of first creating the tavern and how it ended up, hating that I even stood by and joined in the banter. I'm not saying this to make you all guilty, but the tavern is still an issue that I don't think was resolved and I hate what it still is. I called it the Tavern, because it'd be a fun light hearted room for just RP and worldbuilding, and at the time even future DnD type events.
Then it became about Gameplay and our group of friends. I like you all, but this transformation of an RP room into more of a GP room left its scar, and I'm resentful of all of you for making it that way. I don't hate that you like Gameplay, I just hate that it invaded what I thought would be a break from hearing about it in #taijitu. Seeing Dyr still there as an OP and "when Delfos is here Worldbuidling only" is like seeing an artifact of that. I apologize for losing my cool about it.
The sentiment seems clear to me. There's a feeling among some RPers that the GP community is co-opting some of our space.
No one on the GP side of the aisle has stepped up try and understand why some of us RPers feel that way. In your defence Oz's post in this thread was soaked with unnecessary anger that drowned out his point. Still though...there's a feeling among RPers that our concerns are brushed aside easily. Which is a problem when the GPers often occupy positions of perceived influence.
You responding to me stating that fact by demanding "give me one example of when this ever happened" is more of that same unhelpful attitude. You could have said "why do you or other RPers feel that way?"
Instead you opted to be hostile and demanding, in a tone that heavily suggested you were ready to reject concerns of the RP community outright.
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Calming down and not reacting so hostile would help things along Funk.
There was nothing inherently hostile about what Funkadelia said (other than maybe not using "please" and that's a stretch to call that "hostile"). If everything that is said from the "GP" camp is interpreted automatically as hostile, I don't see how we're every going to have the productive conversation you've said you want.
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Calming down and not reacting so hostile would help things along Funk.
There was nothing inherently hostile about what Funkadelia said (other than maybe not using "please" and that's a stretch to call that "hostile"). If everything that is said from the "GP" camp is interpreted automatically as hostile, I don't see how we're every going to have the productive conversation you've said you want.
Maybe it's the folly of trying to decern mood on a text-based medium, but I fond the "tone" of "give me one example of when this ever happened" as automatically dismissive in nature.
I'll try again. Some RPers feel as if certain GP players are trying to co-opt some of our space within the Taijitu community. Is there any way people from both camps can come together and talk about that in a respectful manner?
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First of all, it's incredibly unreasonable to claim that I have been "reacting so hostile" when my attempts to be constructive have been met with claims of me being condescending or some sort of manchild or "jumping down [your] throat" when asking for proof to claims. I'm not going to say anything else to that because it's an absolute nonstarter.
I don't think any "gpers" have mindfully gone into sections of Taijitu and said to ourselves "oh, look a wonderful thing that role-players have done, let's go in and destroy it so that we can assert our dominance." It's simply not true, I don't know any other way to respond to such a shocking claim other than to categorically deny it. Like I said, you might have "a feeling" of RPers concerns being brushed aside (which they have not), when before you made the authoritative statement that they are, without giving proof of that being done, other than Oz's reference to a friendly joke we made at Delfos' expense (which he apparently didn't take as a joke, so I apologize for that even though I had no part in that). I think it's a bit paranoid to claim that "gpers" are taking everything and making it "ours", especially where I have made it clear, and I can tell you that people like Myroria and Gulliver and Dyr and Khem have agreed with, that we all see Taijitu as one whole experience. There is no division between the two in my mind, and we have always incorporated both, and that's what brought Taijitu to such success when the Revolutionary government was created in 2014. And it's what we tried to do when we had the region on CPR in 2012.
The division has been made by some people for no reason other than to attempt to discredit things that I (and others) have to say, for reasons totally unbeknown to most people. So I'm a bit surprised that the claim has been leveled that people who like to participate in NS Gameplay (who, by in large, also participate in world building and role play) "co-opt" things that are set up by roleplayers. It insinuates that we have some evil mindset where we want to inexplicably eliminate roleplay. It's rude and shocking.
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Maybe it's the folly of trying to decern mood on a text-based medium, but I fond the "tone" of "give me one example of when that happened" as automatically dismissive in nature.
If everything that is said from the "RP" camp is dismissed outright, I don't see how we're ever going to have the productive conversation I most certainly do want.
And I realise that's not helpful, so I'll try again. Some RPers feel as if certain GP players are trying to co-opt some of our space within the Taijitu community. Is there any way people from both camps can come together and talk about that in a respectful manner?
This is becoming a pattern. The GP side makes a point, and it is automatically construed as some sort of unjustified attack by the RP side, followed by a platitude about finding common ground.
You say you want to find common ground, but in your response you make no acknowledgement that you may have misinterpreted Funkadelia's tone and dismissed him outright and then throw back the exact same accusation.
You say you want this to be a conversation, but you keep placing the burden of proof on the GP side and setting the bar for satisfying that burden impossibly high. That's not a fair, amicable conversation. That's a trial.
I know I messed up with #taijitu_tavern. But I am not going to let that be a sword hung over my head in perpetuity.
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I don't think any "gpers" have mindfully gone into sections of Taijitu and said to ourselves "oh, look a wonderful thing that role-players have done, let's go in and destroy it so that we can assert our dominance." It's simply not true, I don't know any other way to respond to such a shocking claim other than to categorically deny it.
And here's the difference in our approaches Funk.
You (and a few others) accused me around 24 hours ago of orchestrating some grand puppet-master scheme to try and shame you and Myro. A claim that was so shocking that my immediate response is to categorically deny it.
And deny it I did, to a point. I also realised that it, regardless of how absurd it sounded to me, it was genuine on your part. And so I've spent the last 24 hours apologizing to you, and anyone else who has hinted to me that they've been offended by this debate, because it legitimately bothered me that something I did led to people getting hurt. Even if it wasn't my intent. I recognized that your feelings were real, and tried to do what I could to make amends. Even though I knew that I had done nothing of what you were accusing me of.
And I want to see more of that, from everyone. Nothing hurts quite like having a concern you have dismissed because the other party just doesn't see it as valid. I think everyone, on all sides, taking some time to understand what the other person is feeling will do everyone some good.
Like I said, you might have "a feeling" of RPers concerns being brushed aside (which they have not), when before you made the authoritative statement that they are, without giving proof of that being done, other than Oz's reference to a friendly joke we made at Delfos' expense (which he apparently didn't take as a joke, so I apologize for that even though I had no part in that).
As I said, it's a feeling among certain RPers. And I would say that in certain ways? Yeah, they are. I thought it was reasonable to ask why a non-RPer like Dyr was an OP in a nominally RP room.
And I got responses along the lines of "I don't know why anyone would have a problem with Dyr."
Well no, I don't have a problem with him personally, but that statement is missing the point entirely. And, yes, making me feel like my concern is being brushed aside.
I think it's a bit paranoid to claim that "gpers" are taking everything and making it "ours", especially where I have made it clear, and I can tell you that people like Myroria and Gulliver and Dyr have agreed with, that we all see Taijitu as one whole experience.
I truly appreciate that you feel that way.
Though again. Ask yourself why some RPers feel as paranoid as they do. Ask us. And try to answer the concerns with answers greater then "I don't see why you're upset." People are upset on some level. You may not agree with it. And I'm not asking that you must agree with these concerns. Only that you do a better job listening to the concerns and trying to find constructive solutions.
Dyr is again another good example of such a concern. RPers had issue with him OPing a RP room. Why was that brushed aside? I'm not saying that you should have agreed with the idea that he be removed as an OP. At least acknowledging that it looked bad to RPers and trying to find a solution would have helped matters.
The division has been made by some people for no reason other than to attempt to discredit things that I (and others) have to say, for reasons totally unbeknown to most people. So I'm a bit surprised that the claim has been leveled that people who like to participate in NS Gameplay (who, by in large, also participate in world building and role play) "co-opt" things that are set up by roleplayers. It insinuates that we have some evil mindset where we want to inexplicably eliminate roleplay. It's rude and shocking.
Well Funk I'd like to say I truly do appreciate your response here, because you've given me a look into your own perspective.
I personally don't believe that there's been a nefarious master plan to co-opt RPer space. It sounds as silly as me orchestrating some puppet-master scheme.
I do, however, understand why some RPers DO think that may be happening. Having someone like Dyr who has stated he has no interest in RPing OP a RP room looks bad to RPers. Does that mean he was placed there as an agent to co-opt the tavern from RPers? No, not at all. It does look bad though, and some may take it in the worst possible way.
All I'm saying is...be willing to listen. Does it seem outrageous to you? Yeah, probably. And I don't blame you on a certain level. You accusing me of malice by starting this thread though, is outrageous to me. Sometimes we need to accept that as outrageous as a claim may be to ourselves? It seems valid to someone else. And ensuring that person feels valued means trying to understand that outrageous perspective. Even if we don't agree with it.
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(http://imgfave-chat-herokuapp-com.global.ssl.fastly.net/image_cache/1403387916125143_animate.gif)
Look Funk. Again, I'm sorry. I can't help what you want to believe, or think, of me.
All I want is for people to be a bit more...understanding. I've tried to be that towards you over the past twenty-four hours. Maybe I haven't been the best at that, and I apologize.
As for Gulliver's post...I had an IRC chat with him. He wanted to know what could be said to make me happy. I asked for a frank, honest answer to my question re: Dyr OPing a RP room. I found his answer to be great. Was it what I wanted to hear? No, but I appreciated that he actually acknowledged my point.
So I won't respond to anything he's posted above save for one thing...
I know I messed up with #taijitu_tavern. But I am not going to let that be a sword hung over my head in perpetuity.
First off, for the umpteenth time, I don't care who said what, or what was directed at who in whatever the hell happened in the tavern channel. I wasn't here. I don't care. I don't care about holding anyone responsible for anything. People have apologized, and that should be the end of it.
Secondly? Welcome to my world :P Between the Q Society nonsense and me forcing myself to go on an apology tour for something I didn't actually do? I've realised that stuff like this follows people around longer than it rightfully should.
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go on an apology tour for something I didn't actually do? I've realised that stuff like this follows people around longer than it rightfully should.
welcome to my world.
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go on an apology tour for something I didn't actually do? I've realised that stuff like this follows people around longer than it rightfully should.
welcome to my world.
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b68/IC79/Stuff/e645051_zpse5834d15.png)
:hug:
And I mean that in the best way possible. You're a good guy Funk. Sorry if I hurt you, however unintentional it was. Sorry.
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The thread has been allowed to degenerate too far into unproductive argument. I apologize for not acting sooner now that this is an afterthought.
It is now locked. The remainder of the thread is still active, just split from here.