Forum restriction - Govindia

[Osamafune]

The first one is easy enough. They could be a spy or working for a government which has malicious intentions towards Taijitu.

And what could someone do to Taijitu?

Limi is an admin on this forum because he foots half the bill for it.

Fair enough.

[Gulliver]

For starters, they could start passing on information regarding the UN nations of our soldiers, their current positions and their planned destinations.

[Meridianland]

Limi is an admin on this forum because he foots half the bill for it.

It's the Golden Rule at work:  He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Not very Taijituan in nature.

Why don't one of the founders buy out Limi's share of ownership over the physical forum?  That way community control will stay with the founders.  If money is a problem, I'm sure we could fundraise...  anonymous gifts and such.  I'm sure a number of people would be willing to cough up.

 

[Khablan]

Personally, I'm strongly against that idea.  Adminning is not about politics, it's about running and maintaining the forum.  Start putting government people in as root and you run the risk of political bias.  I'm far more in favor of the roots being from outside the government.

[Eluvatar]

More importantly, Meri, the fact of the matter is that Limi and I banded together to get ourselves DreamHost hosting in late November 2006, before the region was even made. We began paying collectively for a system that I immediately began using for Toaster (then in the Lexicon) and later added the Taijitu forums and wiki and portal too, and Limi has also used it all this time for things like his small region clearing list.

What you suggest is on the verge of being absurd.

[Meridianland]

Personally, I'm strongly against that idea.  Adminning is not about politics, it's about running and maintaining the forum.  Start putting government people in as root and you run the risk of political bias.  I'm far more in favor of the roots being from outside the government.

Limi's adminning is very political and biased, both on the forum and in the #@taijitu IRC channel.
Just because someone doesn't work for our government doesn't mean they're automatically apolitical... 



Elu I understand your point of it not being really feasible to buy Limi's share of the forum out, although I'm not sure I agree with it at this point.  Why couldn't we buy Limi out, and as a permanent thank-you for his effort, let him use the server for free for whatever he wants, just not admin of the forum?


The questions remain:

Where does Limi's authority in this regional community come from

The answer here is because he pays for it? Do we as a community really want that?

Who decides when all community protocol, procedure and standards defer to Limi's whim?

So far the only thing close to an answer that's come out of this discussion is:  Limi.  Do we as a community really want that?

[Akka-Wakka]

First off, I must say that I am still not really satisfied with any part of this matter.  However, I also realize that it's not just going to change because I think differently.  At the moment, nothing illegal has been done, as far as Taijitu Law is concerned.

I also don't really think there is anything on the forums that is readily accessible without first having to jump through about a million hoops first.  I know though, that there are a lot of people who would disagree very strongly, and they all have perfectly good reasons for doing so, and although I don't hold to those reasons myself, I can understand why they hold to them.

All that being said, I feel that it is the laws guiding peoples actions here that are really causing the most problems.  If anyone else feels that this might be the case, then there is really only one solution available to you.  Join the Senate (if you aren't already a member) and propose a law that would be more to your liking.  It's exactly what I'm going to do when/if I get accepted.

[Durnia]

Leave Limi alone, he pays for the forum so he's the admin.

[Flemingovia]

Amazing how little gratitude there is in the world these days. This is real life money we are talking about here, folks, not tais. I for one am really grateful that Elu and Limi have been parting with their cash to give us a better gaming experience here. And I think the snide sniping at Limi is bang out of order.

[Collatica]

Amazing how little gratitude there is in the world these days. This is real life money we are talking about here, folks, not tais. I for one am really grateful that Elu and Limi have been parting with their cash to give us a better gaming experience here. And I think the snide sniping at Limi is bang out of order.

Amen, back off and concentrate on the actual issue at hand here.

I also would like to know how Gov is a threat to regional security, and am not satisfied with the current information that has been presented.

[Meridianland]

I agree with Akka, this is absolutely a failure of law.  I'll work on it with you, Akka.

Flem, I suggested buying Limi out and giving him free access to the server forever, as gratitude for his generosity.  I'm sure you have close reading skills.  I suggest you either use them, or stop trying to divert the point so that you can slam people who are honestly trying to question and come up with nice, workable solutitons.


To answer your insinuation about generosity from another perspective, I'll ask 2 more questions:

Have we as a community decided that the guy with the money gets regional authority?  Did the community consciously decide when all community protocol, procedure and standards should defer to Limi's whim?

If we did, could you please point me to where the documents about that are located?

[Osamafune]

Keep in mind what I said previously was before I knew Limi paid for the forum...

This is a game, not reality. It's Limi's money that's going into running this thing. It is Limi's possesion. No matter how much I may not like it, I believe Limi is entitled to do whatever he wishes with the forum.

I use Limi because that's who we're talking about, I know Elu or someone pays for part of it as well.

[Eluvatar]

Limi and I are equal partners on the hosting plan. This forum is mainly mine but he also has responsibility for it as he also hold responsibility for the shared account.

Limi is not taking political authority through this-- simply forum administration privileges which make sense as he and I are both potentially responsible for what is on this forum in RL court of Law.

In this particular case, he used the fact that he happened to have administrative privileges to assist Delegate Flemingovia with something-- he had no political power to do so. The restriction is implemented by Flemingovia's power, not Limi's. Limi simply executed it.

On the other hand,  the registration agreement is enforceable by Limi and myself completely outside the power structure of the regional community, as that relates to the aforementioned RL responsibilities we hold.

[Allama]

Flem, I suggested buying Limi out and giving him free access to the server forever, as gratitude for his generosity.  I'm sure you have close reading skills.  I suggest you either use them, or stop trying to divert the point so that you can slam people who are honestly trying to question and come up with nice, workable solutitons.

I hate to step into this (as I was trying to keep out for the time being) but asking Limi to part with his real life possession for the sake of an online game, albeit one in which many of us have invested considerable emotional attachment, is a mite ridiculous.  He has every entitlement to maintaining his property and suggesting taking that from him, access and use granted or not, is something this region has absolutely no right to do.

Now, it sounds like you are attempting to divert the purpose of this discussion to air your personal grievances, to be quite honest.  This is not the appropriate topic in which to bring up problems you have with Limi; this is about Gov.  If you have a problem with a particular action he took involved in this case, fine, but if you have issue with Limi having admin powers and/or sharing ownership of the forum in general you ought to start a new topic to discuss such.

[Templarios]

I was interested in this whole situation as I've never seen this before on NationStates so started looking through all the laws and found these interesting bits:

The Primary Laws of Taijitu
6.   Repeated personal attacks and harassment directed against any citizen of Taijitu is hereby forbidden.

I wonder if this could come under a personal attack as it is directed against one person (who is a citizen of Taijitu) but its the calcification of the word: 'repeated' as is that twice (which can be shown on this thread alone) or more than twice? But even under a security banner, this will tarnish his reputation in a very personal sense and could border on harassment if this case is not brought soon and kept hanging in limo.

Constitution of Taijitu
The Preamble
“…and to promote democracy and fair justice”

Is fair justice where everyone (including the Justice) gets involved in pre-trial talk about the case? This does not encourage fair justice as opions and views and other groups such as Senators (who have an indirect link to the case via the control of the Justice) One example is this by Durnia (the Justice): "I'm assuming this is linked to Gov's restrictions in The West Pacific by TAO.". Assumptions are not what fair justice is, its fact based evidence. Here, views are already being made of previous history which, was that based on fair justice as well? I hope i havn't over-explained my point here, please do ask for calcification.

Article VI: The Rights of the Citizens
1. The right of any citizen to speak freely shall not be abridged except where it violates the laws and rules of the external world and the forum.
2. 3 The access of citizens to the region and the forum shall not be curtailed without cause from the Delegate nor shall the access of citizens be curtailed indefinitely without due process of law. The access of citizens to the Supreme Court shall under no circumstances be curtailed.

Point 1 is clear contraction, if his rights to any part of this forum have been removed, there is a problem here as protected by the rights of the citizen. This is because the issue is not over any post or anything in this forum and no RW laws have been broken (to my understand of the case).
Point 2.3 This cause has not been explained except under the banner of 'Security' which covers alot of things. More calcifications is need here.


Thank you for reading this.