Taijitu
Forum Meta => Executive Offices => May 2008 - Government of Taijitu => Government Archive => Archive => Office of the Delegate => Topic started by: Flemingovia on October 05, 2007, 11:06:47 PM
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On or around 05 October, Limitless events received information that led him to believe that Govindia presented an urgent threat to regional security. As I was not online, he took the decision to restrict Govindia's access to the forum, subject to my review. On talking with Limi, and reviewing the evidence, I feel that this restriction was appropriate. Govindia has been informed of this by PM, and has the right to judicial review, which I invite him to take up.
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Has his Resident nation also been telegramed?
Can you disclose the precise nature of the restrictions?
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It seems wrong to punish someone without saying exactly what they've done... Unless it's in the pm I guess, but I doubt it is though...
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I told you people about this <_<
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PRagmia: I have TGd his nation.
For the precise details of which threads he can now see/post in, you would need to ask an admin. I did, however, make sure that he has full access to the court section so that he can post a request for a judicial appeal
Osafune: I am sorry about that, but this tends to be the nature of forum security and intel work. In this instance the source of the information Limi was working on specifically requested that their name not be reveale
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wait what happened now? just got my computer running again and this is the first thing i see. i mean i know what sort of threat he posed, but is it possible to find out the specifics or at least get a popcorn and a front row seat for the judicial procedings?
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Mmhm, really comfortable to know that no reasons for restrictions have to be presented. Truly warms the heart in a good old American Way.
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Flem, it's not that you didn't say who the intel came from but what that intel (the reason he is restricted) was for. He says you said the exact thing in his pm that you have in this topic, and quite frankly "he is a threat to security" doesn't cut it. How is he a threat to security?
Assuming that you're "innocent until proven guilty in the court of law" applies here, it is next to impossible for someone to defend themselves if they don't know what wrong they supposedly commited.
Oh and by the way, can someone enlighten me to how any one person can be a threat to security? I can understand if there's pending military action (ie. TRR, the Pacific) but still, things like that shouldn't be posted about on the forum. Other than that, I honestly don't know...
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It is mentioned in the code of law that the Delegate must issue a public statement.
Article II: Legal and Judicial Process
1. Should the Delegate restrict the access of a Citizen of Taijitu to the Taijitu Forum or eject their nation from the region, the Delegate shall inform them by both personal message and by telegram of their right to seek redress from the Supreme Court of Taijitu and shall issue a public statement informing that the restriction or ejection has occurred and the causes of it.
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Well, this does qualify as a public statement and he has given a reason, even if it is a very broad one. Still, I would too like to be presented with some greater details, even if the source of the information cannot be mentioned. Though, if Gov does decide to take this to court I'm assuming that those will have to surface eventually anyway or he'll be acquitted.
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There was no public statement when he was initially restricted a day or so ago.
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That's because Flem wasn't here at the time, Osafune. Read up in his first post. Limi did that pending Flem's review. When Flem came on some hours later, he reviewed it and posted this announcement.
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He shouldn't have been restricted without being told so, period. If Flem wasn't around to make an announcement or anything, Gov shouldn't have been restricted at that time. I assume that's one of the reasons why his first restriction was lifted.
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What Flem did the law allowed him to do.
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Govindia was told, by both Personal Message and Telegram as stipulated by law, even if not immediately. He has been charged with being a potential threat to regional security, which contravenes his oath of citizenship. I see nothing grossly wrong here. If there is indeed no grounds for these charges against Gov I assume he'll choose to take this to court where the lack of evidence against him will be exposed. Though, again a clarification of how he is purportedly threatening regional security would still do some good to gain my confidence.
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Flem did what the law allowed him to do... But did Limi?
Limi restricted Gov first, and as far as I know, nothing was said about this publicly. During the time between that and when Flem came on, Gov's restriction was taken away. The constitution clearly states that a public announcement is necessary, but there was none, so his restriction was taken away.
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Osafune, please don't jump to assumptions about what happened and why. No one has stated here why the restriction was lifted by another admin and then reapplied. There could be many reasons, including confusion among the admins as to what was being done and why.
From what I can see, Limi acted legally. If there was reason to believe that an immediate restriction was necessary for reasons of regional security, Limi was within legal bounds in doing so.
The documents require that the Delegate make an announcement, and he did so when he arrived and reviewed the matter a few hours later. If it had been a matter of days, I could see this complaint. But that was not the case.
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I agree with Pragmia. I'd like to know how Govinda was an immediate threat. I understand that Flem & Limi can't reveal their sources, but just stating that he's a "threat" is a little too vague to suit me.
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I'm assuming this is linked to Gov's restrictions in The West Pacific by TAO.
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There was no annoucement on his first restriction, so I lifted it because it was illegal. As much as I disagree with the banning, it's within the law and I won't say anything about it.
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To put my feelings bluntly, I can see no reason that would warrant Gov's banning without even a reason. Tell me if you will, what happened to "A Utopia for those fleeing oppression" or "The Free Region of Taijitu"? Right now it's looking like "You say, we accept" and I really don't like it.
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He's not banned...that would be illegal. He is however restricted.
And they have given a reason, that is they believe he is a threat to regional security. Whether they can back that up with evidence if Govindia brings this to Court is another matter.
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I don't really feel that "Threat to Regional Security" is a reason. As far as my experience goes, that's what people say when they don't really have a reason or the reason isn't really sufficient.
I would like to be proved wrong however, so that I may have some faith in this regions workings.
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Well, we'll see. Govindia has chosen to challenge this in Court and in fact I have agreed to even be his legal counsel for the case.
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Oh good. Maybe we can finally make ourselves useful over there.
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Hey GC we've been useful before. Like that time when the Executive and Legislative got all riled up on the Dren Egral A thing.
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Ah, memory.
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Mmhm, really comfortable to know that no reasons for restrictions have to be presented. Truly warms the heart in a good old American Way.
That's a pretty interesting statement, coming from someone who less than 2 weeks ago, without offering any shred of reasoning or anything, tried to remove a senator from her position.
Long live the double standard, eh?
Nevertheless, I agree with you here, Sol. :)
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I'd like an explanation as to how it is that Limitless has the authority to do something like this. Limi isn't a founder and he holds no minister or deputy minister position in the region, specifically in the intel department.
Limi is an admin of the forum, but I'd bet most of my stuff that the threat Govindia posed wasn't immediate enough to justify initially locking him off the forum because he was going to or able to crash it. If Gov had that capability, then we're all at risk from just about anyone. (No offense, Gov.)
So... some really important questions we should be asking about all this:
Where does Limi's authority in this regional community come from***
and
Who decides when all community protocol and procedure defer to Limi's whim?
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***He's allowed to ban on the forum without having to face formal questioning, his word about intel is taken as gospel, and he holds the keys to banning and kicking in the #taijitu irc channel
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I agree with Meri and Akka-Wakka, the restriction (Is that the new term for it? I'll just call it banning, because that's effectively what it is). The banning's wrong, the evidence and cause is flimsy, but the fact of the matter is he's just required to give a public statement - which he did - so the banning is legal. Now it's up to the Court to overturn the ruling or not.
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Suit has been brought, the wheels are in motion, and we're confident we'll see evidence in an IRC trial by next weekend. The next step is for the Delegate to appoint a prosecutor.
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"Suit has been brought, the wheels are in motion"
Isn't that what Jerry Seinfeld said to Babu Bat before he got deported?
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:clap: @ Myro
Isn't the point of the trial to investigate things from the standpoint of Gov's status re: guilt or innocence?
Isn't that seperate from the questions I raised about Limi?
...If it's found Gov is innocent, his threat wasn't critical in its immediacy, or he was about to turn this forum into a wasteland, the questions about the legitimacy of Limi's authority and whim in this community remain. Gov's intention and Limi's fist in the pie are 2 different issues, no?
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This trial that G-C mentioned is indeed for the purpose of ascertaining Govindia's guilt or innocence. The issue of Limi's authority is as you say another matter that would have to be addressed separately.
Limi aside, Flemingovia certainly has the authority to do this though as Delegate, and the restrictions only remained in effect with Flem's approval.
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At this point I think the only question about Flem's legality could be about the nature of the information he used to perpetuate the restriction... but there isn't a law about the delegate using good information - so from a narrow perspective, that specifically doesn't matter.
What are the options for adressing or investigating the serious issues that have been raised about Limi?
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First off, some of the comments above are the reasons why those banned or restricted have the right to judicial review. Govindia has the right to have actions taken against him reviewed by the courts. If he does so, and the courts decide that I have acted inappropriately, then I will happily apologise to Gov.
On the subject of Limitless Event's actions, one of the reasons we have Admins is to act, if necessary, in an expedient manner to protect our community here. When Limi banned gov, he IMMEDIATELY made contact with me, requesting I review his actions. It was not Limi's place to make public statements, or take any other actions. Once I was online, and reviewed his action, a public statement was made.
As far as I am concerned, Limi acted completely properly in this regard. The authority for the banning is mine, and I for one sleep happier knowing that our admins are keeping an eye on our security, and are prepared to act if necessary, but also to submit their actions to review by elected representatives and the courts.
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My main problem is that while the statement said his forum access was restricted because he was a regional threat. No one has said why gov is a regional threat.
I don't think it is asking a lot to give a general statement on why gov is a regional threat. Im not asking for all the information in the world, I am just asking for enough to be an informed citizen.
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Myroria, out of curiosity, why are you calling the restriction effectively a banning?
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I believe he said that, Elu.
And Gov, if he wishes, can file a civil suit against Limi, which would be a seperate case from Taijitu v. Govindia.
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My question was why is he saying that.
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As far as I am concerned, Limi acted completely properly in this regard.
Your response veered away from the spirit of the questions about the nature of Limi's involvement in this community.
Because Limi holds no governmental position, not in the cabinet or any elected position at all:
Where does Limi's authority in this regional community come from***
and
Who decides when all community protocol and procedure (and I should add community standards) defer to Limi's whim?
***He's allowed to ban on the forum without having to face formal questioning, his word about intel is taken as gospel, and he holds the keys to banning and kicking in the #taijitu irc channel
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Since nobody has actually answered my question on how someone can be a threat, I assume that what is meant by that is someone who would hax teh s3rv3r and/or crash the forum as I think someone alluded to before in this topic.
So my next question is, how is restricting forum access going to prevent something like that from happening? I don't think he's literally banned from the forum so what good is it going to do? If this is what he intended on doing, wouldn't he have already done it by now? This is only speculation of course since someone won't tell anyone, including Gov himself apparently, what he was accused of and where the info came from! ::)
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Osafune, what is it exactly that you want?
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My questions answered.
In what ways can someone be a threat to regional security?
What exactly is Gov being accused of?
Why is Limi an admin?
What gives Limi, who is not a founder, senator, or minister, the right to restrict/ban people and generally... be an admin?
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The first one is easy enough. They could be a spy or working for a government which has malicious intentions towards Taijitu.
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Limi is an admin on this forum because he foots half the bill for it.
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The first one is easy enough. They could be a spy or working for a government which has malicious intentions towards Taijitu.
And what could someone do to Taijitu?
Limi is an admin on this forum because he foots half the bill for it.
Fair enough.
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For starters, they could start passing on information regarding the UN nations of our soldiers, their current positions and their planned destinations.
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Limi is an admin on this forum because he foots half the bill for it.
It's the Golden Rule at work: He who has the gold, makes the rules.
Not very Taijituan in nature.
Why don't one of the founders buy out Limi's share of ownership over the physical forum? That way community control will stay with the founders. If money is a problem, I'm sure we could fundraise... anonymous gifts and such. I'm sure a number of people would be willing to cough up.
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Personally, I'm strongly against that idea. Adminning is not about politics, it's about running and maintaining the forum. Start putting government people in as root and you run the risk of political bias. I'm far more in favor of the roots being from outside the government.
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More importantly, Meri, the fact of the matter is that Limi and I banded together to get ourselves DreamHost hosting in late November 2006, before the region was even made. We began paying collectively for a system that I immediately began using for Toaster (then in the Lexicon) and later added the Taijitu forums and wiki and portal too, and Limi has also used it all this time for things like his small region clearing list.
What you suggest is on the verge of being absurd.
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Personally, I'm strongly against that idea. Adminning is not about politics, it's about running and maintaining the forum. Start putting government people in as root and you run the risk of political bias. I'm far more in favor of the roots being from outside the government.
Limi's adminning is very political and biased, both on the forum and in the #@taijitu IRC channel.
Just because someone doesn't work for our government doesn't mean they're automatically apolitical...
Elu I understand your point of it not being really feasible to buy Limi's share of the forum out, although I'm not sure I agree with it at this point. Why couldn't we buy Limi out, and as a permanent thank-you for his effort, let him use the server for free for whatever he wants, just not admin of the forum?
The questions remain:
Where does Limi's authority in this regional community come from
The answer here is because he pays for it? Do we as a community really want that?
Who decides when all community protocol, procedure and standards defer to Limi's whim?
So far the only thing close to an answer that's come out of this discussion is: Limi. Do we as a community really want that?
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First off, I must say that I am still not really satisfied with any part of this matter. However, I also realize that it's not just going to change because I think differently. At the moment, nothing illegal has been done, as far as Taijitu Law is concerned.
I also don't really think there is anything on the forums that is readily accessible without first having to jump through about a million hoops first. I know though, that there are a lot of people who would disagree very strongly, and they all have perfectly good reasons for doing so, and although I don't hold to those reasons myself, I can understand why they hold to them.
All that being said, I feel that it is the laws guiding peoples actions here that are really causing the most problems. If anyone else feels that this might be the case, then there is really only one solution available to you. Join the Senate (if you aren't already a member) and propose a law that would be more to your liking. It's exactly what I'm going to do when/if I get accepted.
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Leave Limi alone, he pays for the forum so he's the admin.
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Amazing how little gratitude there is in the world these days. This is real life money we are talking about here, folks, not tais. I for one am really grateful that Elu and Limi have been parting with their cash to give us a better gaming experience here. And I think the snide sniping at Limi is bang out of order.
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Amazing how little gratitude there is in the world these days. This is real life money we are talking about here, folks, not tais. I for one am really grateful that Elu and Limi have been parting with their cash to give us a better gaming experience here. And I think the snide sniping at Limi is bang out of order.
Amen, back off and concentrate on the actual issue at hand here.
I also would like to know how Gov is a threat to regional security, and am not satisfied with the current information that has been presented.
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I agree with Akka, this is absolutely a failure of law. I'll work on it with you, Akka.
Flem, I suggested buying Limi out and giving him free access to the server forever, as gratitude for his generosity. I'm sure you have close reading skills. I suggest you either use them, or stop trying to divert the point so that you can slam people who are honestly trying to question and come up with nice, workable solutitons.
To answer your insinuation about generosity from another perspective, I'll ask 2 more questions:
Have we as a community decided that the guy with the money gets regional authority? Did the community consciously decide when all community protocol, procedure and standards should defer to Limi's whim?
If we did, could you please point me to where the documents about that are located?
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Keep in mind what I said previously was before I knew Limi paid for the forum...
This is a game, not reality. It's Limi's money that's going into running this thing. It is Limi's possesion. No matter how much I may not like it, I believe Limi is entitled to do whatever he wishes with the forum.
I use Limi because that's who we're talking about, I know Elu or someone pays for part of it as well.
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Limi and I are equal partners on the hosting plan. This forum is mainly mine but he also has responsibility for it as he also hold responsibility for the shared account.
Limi is not taking political authority through this-- simply forum administration privileges which make sense as he and I are both potentially responsible for what is on this forum in RL court of Law.
In this particular case, he used the fact that he happened to have administrative privileges to assist Delegate Flemingovia with something-- he had no political power to do so. The restriction is implemented by Flemingovia's power, not Limi's. Limi simply executed it.
On the other hand, the registration agreement (http://forum.taijitu.org/agreement.txt) is enforceable by Limi and myself completely outside the power structure of the regional community, as that relates to the aforementioned RL responsibilities we hold.
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Flem, I suggested buying Limi out and giving him free access to the server forever, as gratitude for his generosity. I'm sure you have close reading skills. I suggest you either use them, or stop trying to divert the point so that you can slam people who are honestly trying to question and come up with nice, workable solutitons.
I hate to step into this (as I was trying to keep out for the time being) but asking Limi to part with his real life possession for the sake of an online game, albeit one in which many of us have invested considerable emotional attachment, is a mite ridiculous. He has every entitlement to maintaining his property and suggesting taking that from him, access and use granted or not, is something this region has absolutely no right to do.
Now, it sounds like you are attempting to divert the purpose of this discussion to air your personal grievances, to be quite honest. This is not the appropriate topic in which to bring up problems you have with Limi; this is about Gov. If you have a problem with a particular action he took involved in this case, fine, but if you have issue with Limi having admin powers and/or sharing ownership of the forum in general you ought to start a new topic to discuss such.
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I was interested in this whole situation as I've never seen this before on NationStates so started looking through all the laws and found these interesting bits:
The Primary Laws of Taijitu
6. Repeated personal attacks and harassment directed against any citizen of Taijitu is hereby forbidden.
I wonder if this could come under a personal attack as it is directed against one person (who is a citizen of Taijitu) but its the calcification of the word: 'repeated' as is that twice (which can be shown on this thread alone) or more than twice? But even under a security banner, this will tarnish his reputation in a very personal sense and could border on harassment if this case is not brought soon and kept hanging in limo.
Constitution of Taijitu
The Preamble
“…and to promote democracy and fair justice”
Is fair justice where everyone (including the Justice) gets involved in pre-trial talk about the case? This does not encourage fair justice as opions and views and other groups such as Senators (who have an indirect link to the case via the control of the Justice) One example is this by Durnia (the Justice): "I'm assuming this is linked to Gov's restrictions in The West Pacific by TAO.". Assumptions are not what fair justice is, its fact based evidence. Here, views are already being made of previous history which, was that based on fair justice as well? I hope i havn't over-explained my point here, please do ask for calcification.
Article VI: The Rights of the Citizens
1. The right of any citizen to speak freely shall not be abridged except where it violates the laws and rules of the external world and the forum.
2. 3 The access of citizens to the region and the forum shall not be curtailed without cause from the Delegate nor shall the access of citizens be curtailed indefinitely without due process of law. The access of citizens to the Supreme Court shall under no circumstances be curtailed.
Point 1 is clear contraction, if his rights to any part of this forum have been removed, there is a problem here as protected by the rights of the citizen. This is because the issue is not over any post or anything in this forum and no RW laws have been broken (to my understand of the case).
Point 2.3 This cause has not been explained except under the banner of 'Security' which covers alot of things. More calcifications is need here.
Thank you for reading this.
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I wonder if this could come under a personal attack as it is directed against one person (who is a citizen of Taijitu) but its the calcification of the word: 'repeated' as is that twice (which can be shown on this thread alone) or more than twice? But even under a security banner, this will tarnish his reputation in a very personal sense and could border on harassment if this case is not brought soon and kept hanging in limo.
Sorry, I am unsure whether you were referring to comments concerning Govindia or comments concerning Limi.
Is fair justice where everyone (including the Justice) gets involved in pre-trial talk about the case?
Thank you for this comment. This is precisely the reason why I have not been drawn to discuss the case concerning Govindia further than I have. As far as I am concerned, it is now a matter for the courts, not open discussion.
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How is this only a matter for the courts?
What this is all about is the laws of Taijitu, Taijituan principles, etc that applies to everyone, not just Gov and the courts.
It's everyone's duty and right to voice their opinions about happenings in the region. We are supposed to be promoting democracy after all, and what's a democracy if you don't listen to what the people have to say?
I think that more than makes it a matter for open discussion. Durnia's assumption could have been made even if there wasn't this open discussion about it. I have a feeling assumptions and opinions would likely come about anyway.
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Is fair justice where everyone (including the Justice) gets involved in pre-trial talk about the case?
Thank you for this comment. This is precisely the reason why I have not been drawn to discuss the case concerning Govindia further than I have. As far as I am concerned, it is now a matter for the courts, not open discussion.
Thank you, this is the place for discussion for us - members and citizens of this region but not for citizens in positions of power. Mainly for my reasons above but also they are to listen to the will and the views of the people. I don't mean to affect the outcome of the trial - that should be based (as i said before) on fact based evidence alone. But when this is all over the government should look back and review both how this happened, why it happened, what happened and also what changes should be made in the cold light of day regardless of the out-come, no knee-jerk reactions please.
Sorry, I am unsure whether you were referring to comments concerning Govindia or comments concerning Limi.
I have no problem with Limi for this is a game at the end of the day. But with Govindia my comments were aimed at. I'm talking about person attack/harassment of Govindia. He needs to be involved as he is still part of our community and i hope everyone else shares the view that he is innocent until proven guilty. We also must remember this is a game at the end of the day no-matter how much effort we have put into it and at the end of a computer screen is a person. I look forward to a fair and decent trial for all concerned and hope once it is over we can put it all behind us and move on a stronger region.
If i can be any assistance in this situation, more than happy to help anyone! :)
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Mmhm, really comfortable to know that no reasons for restrictions have to be presented. Truly warms the heart in a good old American Way.
That's a pretty interesting statement, coming from someone who less than 2 weeks ago, without offering any shred of reasoning or anything, tried to remove a senator from her position.
Long live the double standard, eh?
Nevertheless, I agree with you here, Sol. :)
Not really, the situations are different. I thought it would be completely obvious as to why you should be removed. However, due to the lack of preliminary support, I didn't place any effort on it as it seemed a complete waste of time to me.
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EDIT: Anyway, now that I actually read the rest of the thread with partial focus, I might've missed it but has Gov only been restricted from those parts of the forum that are closely related to NS, i.e. Government and Military, or is it broader?
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Elu later streamlined the restriction so that he only has access to the court forum, the minimum amount he is required to have
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To everyone who has a problem with the way that this is working out: Everything that is going on right now is legal. If you have a problem with the law, propose a bill, don't whine day and night about it. I find it amazing how a simple statement gets turned into a 5 page thread.
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Now, it sounds like you are attempting to divert the purpose of this discussion to air your personal grievances, to be quite honest.
Not at all, I'm bringing it up in the context of community. I'm pretty sure a lot of people don't remember ever signing anything that said Limi specifically has the right to set community standards and blow community protocol out of the water. This is very much a community issue.
This is not the appropriate topic in which to bring up problems you have with Limi; this is about Gov. If you have a problem with a particular action he took involved in this case, fine, but if you have issue with Limi having admin powers and/or sharing ownership of the forum in general you ought to start a new topic to discuss such.
Well, I see what you're saying, but this thread is where people began to question everything that happened involved in this case. Limi's actions are a critical part of what happened, no? I agree though, that they are two distinct issues.
:)
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*sigh*
I personally am sick of hearing, "This is Elu's/limi's forum or channel". Yes I thank thank them for paying the bills and I apperciate it very much, how ever everytime I open my mouth just to voice what I think, someone one brings it up. The sad thing is they are the last two people to flaunt the fact it is there forum. I get it, they own it, you don't have to remind me whenever I disagree with the status quo. However by allowing me to be a member here and in IRC they allow me to speak my mind.
Also just because Limi pays I don't think he should get immunity from his actions. However I would like to thank him again for paying for my sorry ass :P.
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There's no question of immunity here. And I haven't heard anyone in this thread use that as a justification for asking people to be quiet. The only justifications for that that I have seen so far is to avoid creating bias in the Court case, but even that isn't really necessary as we Justices can think for ourselves.
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Getting back on track, how's the government doing in selecting a prosecutor so we can get this trial moving?
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PoD Gunner has been selected.
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So when is the trial starting?
And:
Elu later streamlined the restriction so that he only has access to the court forum, the minimum amount he is required to have
Bit harse isn't it?
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Gov says he won't have any regular access until next Thursday to the internet.
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By that time we should be ready to go.
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Y'know, generally speaking there shouldn't be any reason to ban anyone from the General area excepting ToS violations.