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Author Topic: The Church  (Read 4331 times)

Offline Templarios

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Re: The Church
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2008, 01:37:10 PM »
No, its just one of the main pillars for a JW is what u are arguing for so i just wanted to check to save time later...

What do you believe will happen when you die?
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In my above post, I did not intend to offend or upset anyone. If you were so, I deeply apologise.

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Offline B9 perspective

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Re: The Church
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2008, 06:50:10 PM »
No, its just one of the main pillars for a JW is what u are arguing for so i just wanted to check to save time later...

No. JWs divide their interpretations of quotes regarding many biblical references about God's children. I don't agree with their conditions of being born again.
All being God's children is only part of the equation; Love not being exclusive is the other..What of 'Love thy neighbor as thyself' I just don't see the exclusivity...and there's always the good samaritan and the prodigal son.

Specialness and exclusivity regarding love bores me.
Whether if it's from them, your church, or anyone else's.

What do you believe will happen when you die?

I don't believe I'll die. When I depart the illusion of being contained by a body, I imagine that it will feel similar to waking from a dream at first. Perhaps I will pass through a phase of remembering parts of the dream. I've had repetetive dreams as a child where I lived in another family in another country speaking and comprehending another language- complete with a different education and left my body in that, in other dreams etc. So far there's nothing that says that what I perceive now is any more REAL or permanent.
Tolerance, generosity, patience, openmindedness, and anything having to do with chord progressions....

Offline Myroria

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Re: The Church
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2008, 07:22:51 PM »
How does the Church explain the falsity of evolution, despite years and years of evidence to the contrary?
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Templarios

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Re: The Church
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2008, 07:21:13 PM »
How does the Church explain the falsity of evolution, despite years and years of evidence to the contrary?

I dont know believe there is a falsity of evolution and what evidence do you have that shows that we all came out the sea etc as evolution so says?

I do believe in small sets of evolution but a fish becomes a lizard becomes a bird becomes a monkey becomes me is just strange.
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In my above post, I did not intend to offend or upset anyone. If you were so, I deeply apologise.

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Offline Myroria

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Re: The Church
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2008, 12:20:40 AM »
A common mistake by creationists is that evolution consists of "I need wings, I'd better grow them" or that we believe that fish just poof turned into monkeys, or that it being called a "theory" of evolution inherently discredits it (Gravity, by the way, is called the "theory of gravity").

As any 7th grader in biology class will tell you, the first life was single-celled organisms. These turned into fish, which evolved legs and became amphibians to adapt to life on land. Amphibians eventually turned to reptiles, such as dinosaurs. Birds evolved from reptiles, and mammals came on the scene at about the same time. Lagomorphs and mammals like them evolved into primates such as the ancestors to the chimpanzee, and humans evolved from there. The idea that a God gave us a "spark" is similarly false; our brains were just smart enough at the right time. A dog who found out how to open a door has not been given an intelligent spark by God; humans are the same. We were lucky, and frankly, humans aren't all that special.

Found in increasing numbers in Africa are small variations that are a lead on the path to humanity; apes skulls evolved for bigger brains, we learned to stand upright, etc. In fact, the list of homo- species alone is huge, not even counting more distant relatives such as australopithecus:

†Homo helmei discovered 1935
†Homo helmei florisbad (Florisbad Man)
†Homo njarasensis discovered 1938
†Homo habilis (Handy Man) discovered 1964
†KNM-ER 1813*
†OH 7 (Jonny's child)
†Homo rudolfensis (Rudolf Man) discovered 1986
†KNM-ER 1470
†Homo ergaster (Working Man) discovered 1975
†Homo ergaster groves
†KNM-ER 992 discovered 1992
†Homo erectus or Archanthropus (Upright Man) discovered by Dubois, 1892
†Homo erectus capensis discovered by Broom & Robinson, 1949
†Homo erectus erectus discovered by Dubois, 1892-1894
†Homo erectus javensis or Pithecanthropus erectus (Java Man) discovered by von Koenigswald, 1936
†Homo erectus hexianensis
†Homo erectus lantianensis discovered 1964
†Homo erectus leakey discovered by Heberer, 1963
†Homo erectus mauritanicus discovered by Arambourg, 1954
†Homo erectus modjokertensis discovered von Koenigswald, 1936
†Homo erectus paleojavanicus sangiranensis or Meganthropus paleojavanicus discovered by Sartono, 1976
†Homo erectus pekinensis or Sinanthropus pekinensis (Peking Man) discovered by Black & Zdansky, 1927
†Homo erectus petraloniensis 1986
†Homo erectus soloensis or Javanthropus soloensis
†Homo erectus trigliensis 1966
†Homo erectus trinilis
†OH 9 (Chellean man)
†Homo atlanthropus (Atlantos Man)
†Homo atlanthropus algericus (Algeria Atlantos Man)
†Homo atlanthropus mauritanicus (Mauritania Atlantos Man)
†Homo floresiensis (Flores Man — discovered 2003-2004. Species status remains under debate)
†LB1 (Hobbit Man)
†Homo rhodesiensis (Rhodesia Man) discovered 1921
†Homo rhodesiensis kabwe
†Homo georgicus (Georgia Man, discovered 2002-2003)
†D211
†D2280
†D2282
†D2600
†D2700
†D2735
†Homo antecessor (Predecessor Man)
†Homo antecessor castros
†Homo cepranensis (Ceprano Man) discovered 2003
†Homo cepranensis ceprano
†Homo heidelbergensis (Heidelberg Man) discovered 1908
†Homo heidelbergensis mauer
†Homo neanderthalensis (Neanderthal Man) discovered 1864
†Neanderthal (Neandertal Man)
Homo sapiens
†Homo sapiens archaic (most ancient wise man) discovered 2003
†Homo sapiens idaltu (elderly wise man — or Herto man; discovered 1997)
†Homo sapiens fossilis (fossil wise man) discovered 1869
†Homo sapiens steinheimensis discovered by Berckhemer, 1934
Homo sapiens sapiens (Wise Man) discovered 1758
†Homo sapiens sapiens palestinus or Cro-Magnon (Wise Man or Palestinian man; early humans) discovered by McCown and Keith, 1932

Quite frankly, this has convinced me more than:

"God created man (lit. adam) in his own image; in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them".
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Annex

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Re: The Church
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2008, 05:41:28 AM »
If I may interject, why is it always necessary to bring a debate about religion into the realm of science. Does religion necessarily replace science and vice versa, or can they coexist in independent spheres?

Offline Templarios

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Re: The Church
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2008, 07:59:45 AM »
Personally i dont have a problem with science. I did quite happly in my A-level years at school biology and chemistry along side RE and philosophy.

But let me ask, fish lungs/gills are totally different biology to lungs such as ours that work above land. How did suddenly they swap from one set to another in one generation? Genetic mutation?

I know the list but a list does not prove anything. The first life according to evolution was single-celled organisms. How did they come to exist? There always must be a start, always.
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In my above post, I did not intend to offend or upset anyone. If you were so, I deeply apologise.

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Offline Allama

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Re: The Church
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2008, 01:46:15 PM »
The thought that science and religion are mutually exclusive is a fallacy, in my opinion.  People simply try to hard to make their religions also encompass science, and vice versa.  There is a school of thought commonly referred to as the "Two Book Theory" among Christian scholars that simply states that the Bible is not and was never intended to be a science text book.  It is a spiritual/life guide.

If God had said to the Israelites "The land you walk on is actually curved; it's a giant ball that revolves causing the sun to appear to move in the sky while at the same time it rotates around the sun in the vacuum of space..." and went on to explain all sorts of physics, biology, etc. that they had absolutely no context for, NOBODY would have listened to them.  Heck, even the great prophets would have thought "This God is insane." and found another one to follow.

Why would God take the time to explain the workings of every single thing in the universe when everyone He was trying to communicate with would be long dead by the time he finished, if they actually bothered to stick around listening to what would absolutely have seemed to be utter madness at the time?

Would Abraham have believed he was made up of billions of tiny pieces between which there was space when he could reach down and feel himself solid, having no way to test this?  If he did, would anyone have ever converted to Judaism when they heard?  Would he even have had a frame of reference to understand a number as high as "billions"?

If you take the Torah/Old Testament/Bible/etc. literally as a source of scientific fact, you can't pick and choose.  If the Earth was created in 6 literal days by the "poof" method, then you also MUST believe it is literal when it says the earth is flat and rests on pillars and when it says the sun goes around the earth.

Galileo once challenged the church's view of science by stating that the universe was not geocentric and that the complicated "sphere theory" the church backed at the time was preposterous.  They said he was a blasphemer attempting to undermine the church with his "unprovable" theories and had him excommunicated and arrested, but now just about all educated people in the entire world believe in his model of the universe.  Did this discredit or undermine religion?  No, at least not to anyone who realizes that spirituality has absolutely nothing to do with scientific truth.

If we can understand a universe that is not geocentric and incorporate that into our faith by realizing that it was not even remotely practical for God to reveal that truth in Biblical times, why not evolution?  It makes perfect sense and even happened in basically the same order as the Creation stories in Genesis.

Let me put it to you in a different way.  Where did those one-cell organisms come from?  How did matter explode from nothingness in the first place?  Well, there is where I see God.  The touch of the divine, reaching down and causing first matter and later life to erupt into being in a beautiful, cosmic display of benevolence.

I have written this not only in an attempt to convince those who believe in the Old Testament's truth that science does not oppose them, but also to convince scientists that they need not see religion as their enemy.  Certain factions on both "sides" have a serious hubris issue that is the root of the conflict.

Offline Templarios

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Re: The Church
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2008, 06:02:02 PM »
If you take the Torah/Old Testament/Bible/etc. literally as a source of scientific fact, you can't pick and choose.  If the Earth was created in 6 literal days by the "poof" method, then you also MUST believe it is literal when it says the earth is flat and rests on pillars and when it says the sun goes around the earth.

I believe you are wrong here. I do take the bible quite literally yet i don't believe its flat. No-where in the bible does it say the world is flat, it also doesn't say the world is round. In the middle-ages Christian's thought Jerusalem was the centre of the world and their maps reflected this. Yet this is totally un-biblical.
I do believe in some minor "evolution" or changes such as in the beginning there were just two people yet how come we have three or even more distinct skin colours e.g. black and white being the obvious differences? Slight genetic change but only of 1 chromosome that controls the pigment of the skin. To change from a fish with gills to a land beast or to suddenly grow feathers is going to take alot more than 1 chromosome... it is going to take a fundamental change of their DNA structure in 1 generation aka mummy fish and daddy fish have sex and bomb, their baby fish can now breath air and flop around the land...
Even with a small change in the genetic make-up such as the change of 1 chromosome for some the conditions i work with, they are 1 in a million births and the amazing human body can notice this change and cause the body to have a miss-carriage. The chances of such a drastic change are so, so low.
*Disclaimer*
In my above post, I did not intend to offend or upset anyone. If you were so, I deeply apologise.

Citzen since 08.10.07 ¦ Senator since 08.12.07 ¦ Second Speaker pro-Temp.

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Offline Allama

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Re: The Church
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2008, 06:52:59 PM »
I'm absolutely horrible at remembering verses and whatnot, but I am positive it says the Earth rests on pillars, which, of course, requires it to be flat.  It also speaks of the sun moving around the Earth.

As to the odds of such a fundamental change occurring, please keep in mind that it would be happening extremely gradually over thousands and millions of years.  I don't know the specifics, but animals didn't just pop out of fish eggs one morning and swim up to land.  There was an interim stage.  This is where my knowledge needs a lot of refreshing and is a bit hazy, but I believe some some aquatic creatures became amphibious, then eventually lost their gills after the species remained on land for long enough that they became superfluous.  As the changes happened slowly over many, many generations, miscarriages did not stop the change.  It wasn't like a frog laying eggs with no gills all of a sudden; it would have laid a bunch of eggs and some of them had very slightly smaller gills, likely within the normal variation for their species.  Some of those would eventually mate with frogs who also had small gills, increasing the chance that their young's gills would be small, and so on.

These kinds of changes are not theoretical; they have been observed and recorded.  We have seen plants and animals adapting to fit a changing environment, not just in what they do, but biologically.  The ones less likely to survive because of a genetic variation that has become problematic due to a change in surroundings are less likely to reproduce, and thus a species adapts, splits, or dies out entirely.

I can give an example of a species in which we have seen changes occur if you would like.

P.S. This is one of the more interesting discussions I've been in in a while.  I'm so happy!  :)

Offline Gulliver

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Re: The Church
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2008, 09:32:33 PM »
Quote from: Templarios
But let me ask, fish lungs/gills are totally different biology to lungs such as ours that work above land. How did suddenly they swap from one set to another in one generation? Genetic mutation?

Behold the lungfish, capable of breathing air.

I also find it hard to characterize millions and billions of years as "sudden".

Quote from: Templarios
Even with a small change in the genetic make-up such as the change of 1 chromosome for some the conditions i work with, they are 1 in a million births and the amazing human body can notice this change and cause the body to have a miss-carriage. The chances of such a drastic change are so, so low.

Let's say that life has been around for 1 billion years. Let's say there's a single birth every 100 years. Do the math: 1 billion divided by 100 if I'm correct comes out to 10  million. Even with these incredibly distorted numbers that's still 10, 1 in a million chance major mutations. And life has been around for much more than just 1 billion years; current scientific consensus places the the birth of life on Earth at least 2.7 billions  year ago and potentially as far back as 4.4 billion years ago. And of course a single birth does not happen just once every 100 years. Untold hundreds and thousands of new lives of various species are coming into being every second. Over several billion years that's a lot of millions.

If I recall correctly on average 3 new humans are born every second now a days. 3 births times 60 seconds in a minute times 60 minutes in an hour times 24 hours in a day times 365 days in a year. 94,608,000. That's almost 100 1 in a million births in just a single year in the human species alone. The chances of significant mutations are indeed low, but when you simply have so many births occurring the occasional rare mutations which do occur will stack up over the course of a few billion years.

What's more, every single mutation need not be drastic; various minor mutations can also stack up. And with so many genes being transcribed and copied there's plenty of chances for such a mess up. From what I've read about 80% of evolution is gradual while 20% is drastic.

Quote from: Allama
Let me put it to you in a different way.  Where did those one-cell organisms come from?  How did matter explode from nothingness in the first place?  Well, there is where I see God.  The touch of the divine, reaching down and causing first matter and later life to erupt into being in a beautiful, cosmic display of benevolence.

Indeed. The way I see it if you believe there is a purpose to the universe then you believe in God. Science is knowing based on observation, and what we can observe we should approach with science. But there is one thing which is beyond observation; the cause behind the universe and why it works the way it does if there is such a thing. The existence of such a thing has to be taken entirely on faith, the basis of God.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 09:36:45 PM by Cornelius Snuffles »

Offline Myroria

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Re: The Church
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2008, 02:57:37 AM »
I don't believe that there is a purpose to the universe. I don't find humans special in any way; we're just lucky hairless apes.
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."