Concerning the mind and repentance

[Solnath]

Not completely off-topic and it is my topic.

Would you say it's possible to get to Heaven without Jesus Christ?

[Naivetry]

Point.

Depends on what you mean by "without."  My favorite quote on this is C.S. Lewis again - "We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him." - Mere Christianity.

All who perish apart from the law will be judged apart from the law, Paul says - if the ignorance of the law itself is not a reason to condemn someone, surely the grace that has replaced the law will not prove more legalistic.

[Solnath]

So disregard of the scriptures will not lead to eternal damnation if God's will is done by the person in question?

[Naivetry]

Ignorance and disregard are not the same thing.

[Solnath]

So even if you are the most gentle, loving and generally good person ever, you still go to Hell if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your saviour and don't believe in the Bible?

[Naivetry]

My dear antagonist, did I say that?

I have already told you, in so many words, that the economy of salvation is a mystery to me.  Your objections over-simplify the problems of human nature, which cannot be addressed in the broad sweeping strokes of "nice people" vs. "mean people."

[Solnath]

So... you don't know how to get to Heaven?

[Naivetry]

 

I know the fundamentals of salvation, and I know why they are necessary.

Imperfection exists.  This is a given.  In the light of eternity, however, there can be no partial good or evil.  Minor flaws - that is, misuses of what is good - extended over infinite time without chance of correction logically means the misuse of everything good.  Therefore, in the light of eternity, perfection or total depravity are the only options.

However, achieving perfection is impossible for humanity left to its own devices.  Grace is needed - an unmerited forgiveness, a get out of jail free card.  However, justice must also be satisfied.  We tend to brush over that part, but really, we do some pretty terrible things.  If someone doesn't pay the price, the universe would be treating good and evil acts alike.  Doesn't seem fair to me.

Second problem: the price is too much for us to pay.  For the hurt that we cause people, for the selfishness that allows us to buy a plasma TV when hundreds of people could be fed on what it costs us, for the brokenness of a world that sees poverty as a crime and genocide as an unfortunate fact of someone else's life, no price is too high.  The price is life.  And that is the price that God exacted... from himself.  It was the only way to punish evil and forgive it.  It was the only way to fulfill justice and promise mercy.

In the death of Jesus Christ, humanity was given a clean slate.  In his resurrection, we were given the means to change our most fundamental nature: to abandon selfishness, because sacrifice means reward.  To obey, because conscious obedience is the only real freedom.  To die without fear, because in our end is our beginning.

When we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, that is what we mean.  We are acknowledging a new reality.  We are placing our trust in grace, and in a love beyond our understanding that died to offer it to us.

I don't think God cares how you say it, or whether you understand what he has done.  None of us understands it perfectly.  The upshot of it all is, we all need help to get to heaven, and we're all going to get it if we want it.

[Solnath]

to abandon selfishness, because sacrifice means reward.

Paradoxical if you see what I mean. Being selfless in order to gain a reward for yourself is not only selfish, but astoundingly hypocritical.

[Naivetry]

No more paradoxical than doing the right thing when being virtuous makes you happy...

I would agree that it would be hypocritical if reward was the motivation.  But it's not.  The desire to do good must be unselfish, pure; the reward is only a promise of healing from the pain it will cause us.

[Solnath]

But as humans are imperfect, what do they do when they happen to think, "this will make God happy?"

[Naivetry]

I suppose it would depend on the person.    I know a couple of people who, thinking that, would immedately do the opposite of whatever they'd been planning.

[Xyrael]

Mind if I interject with a personal thought? You two are quite witty 

But what's the point of heaven if you accomplish everything you want to in life?

[Solnath]

Well, you don't go to Hell...

[Omnipius]

That's always been my little problem with heaven: "It's all good and perfect? Sounds boring." Now I'm not one to wish for hell either, I just enjoy the trials and tribulations of life.

I do have a question for those apparently in the know on this subject:
If one spends one's life seeking to improve the world with little regard to religion and no expectation of reward or punishment in an afterlife, what would become of said person according to your understanding?