This is going to sound mind-numbingly obvious, but bear with me - repenting to a higher power only makes rational sense if you believe there is a higher power concerned with morality.
In fact, repenting to a higher power only makes sense if you believe that your actions do not only harm other people, but harm God. And God forgiving people for what they've done only makes sense if God is the one really hurt by it. I don't know about you, but I generally don't go around forgiving Bobby for stepping on Susie's toe. It's not my toe, after all. Nothing can give God the right to forgive people unless God is the injured party in every wrongdoing. So the whole fabric of religious repentance only holds together if you believe that God is good and is intimately involved with the sufferings of the world.
Emotionally, repenting to a higher power makes a great deal of sense. Sometimes we can't face the people we've hurt to ask for their forgiveness... sometimes they can't give it. So we can either learn to ignore guilt (which can be surprisingly easy to do - one merely avoids thought), face up to it (not so easy), or seek absolution (which still involves facing up to it).
At any rate, all repentance has to involve taking responsibility for what you've done. It's just a question of how you try to live with yourself afterwards.
Why is it the God doesn't want anything from us... except dedication, obedience and prayer?May I ask where you got that surprising list? For on the contrary, God wants quite a deal more from us than that. "To live justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God" is what I remember... and even that is more descriptive than "prayer." I don't think you win brownie points with God by praying for an A on that last test.
If God loves someone, why should they go to Hell just because they are using their right to free will to exhibit a behaviour different from God's perfect goodness? After all, we, as imperfect beings, are born to err so should we be punished eternally for being created so?Because there are natural consequences to the choices we make, and there is such a thing as responsibility. Hell is not a punishment. It is the natural result of living a self-centered life. It is the logical extension over eternity of the daily choices we make to disregard, belittle, and injure others, in ways big or small. And of course it's not fair for people to go to hell because they can't help making mistakes; that's why we have grace. But when they want to keep making mistakes, you and me and everyone else, not just God, has a problem.
to abandon selfishness, because sacrifice means reward.
But what's the point of heaven if you accomplish everything you want to in life?If you accomplish everything you want to in life, I think you lack imagination. ;)
That's always been my little problem with heaven: "It's all good and perfect? Sounds boring." Now I'm not one to wish for hell either, I just enjoy the trials and tribulations of life.I suspect that life's not through with us when we get to heaven. Heaven's just a name for the reality God lives in - the reality that we pray comes to earth ("Thy kingdom come..."). Heaven is not the end of the story. It's just the beginning of the real adventure.
If one spends one's life seeking to improve the world with little regard to religion and no expectation of reward or punishment in an afterlife, what would become of said person according to your understanding?I wonder on what grounds a person seeking to improve the world could give little regard to religion. It is, after all, a major element of every human culture and a motivation for both terrible atrocities and awe-inspiring selflessness. If any of it's true, it's the single most important aspect of human existence. If it's false, it is still a major factor in understanding the workings of both individuals and society. To ignore it seems like wearing blinders... and for what reason? Fear? Laziness? Anyone looking to make an impact on the world must avoid both.
Well in the case of Western religions it literally is all the same God. This is why the media have started properly translating 'Allah' to 'God'. As much as they all don't want to admit it, Enlil, Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh, God, and Allah are all one and the same.They may have certain origins and concepts in common, but that certainly doesn't mean they're the same.
Why does everything have to be right and wrong, good and evil, black and white... sometimes you're given a question and both answers are right. Have you ever noted the similarities between some religions claiming to not be related? (hinduism and catholicism, where hindu gods are equiv to catholic saints)The similarities reflect either a) similarities in human thought across cultures or b) different expressions of a single underlying truth. Or both. :P And let's not make things equivalent too quickly. Anyone can see where things are similar. The hard part is knowing which differences are important.
I do believe the correct terms are foolish ambition and greed.But what's the point of heaven if you accomplish everything you want to in life?If you accomplish everything you want to in life, I think you lack imagination. ;)
A beginning that lasts for eternity. It really does sound adventorturous like the Never-Ending Story.That's always been my little problem with heaven: "It's all good and perfect? Sounds boring." Now I'm not one to wish for hell either, I just enjoy the trials and tribulations of life.I suspect that life's not through with us when we get to heaven. Heaven's just a name for the reality God lives in - the reality that we pray comes to earth ("Thy kingdom come..."). Heaven is not the end of the story. It's just the beginning of the real adventure.
Touché.QuoteIf one spends one's life seeking to improve the world with little regard to religion and no expectation of reward or punishment in an afterlife, what would become of said person according to your understanding?I wonder on what grounds a person seeking to improve the world could give little regard to religion. It is, after all, a major element of every human culture and a motivation for both terrible atrocities and awe-inspiring selflessness. If any of it's true, it's the single most important aspect of human existence. If it's false, it is still a major factor in understanding the workings of both individuals and society. To ignore it seems like wearing blinders... and for what reason? Fear? Laziness? Anyone looking to make an impact on the world must avoid both.
I wouldn't let Enlil, Ra, Zeus or Jupiter on the list. The three last are in their own league, Omnipotencia Maximus.QuoteWell in the case of Western religions it literally is all the same God. This is why the media have started properly translating 'Allah' to 'God'. As much as they all don't want to admit it, Enlil, Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh, God, and Allah are all one and the same.They may have certain origins and concepts in common, but that certainly doesn't mean they're the same.
Many of Christianity's moral codes defy rational thought. Then again, I'm biased as well.Why does everything have to be right and wrong, good and evil, black and white... sometimes you're given a question and both answers are right. Have you ever noted the similarities between some religions claiming to not be related? (hinduism and catholicism, where hindu gods are equiv to catholic saints)The similarities reflect either a) similarities in human thought across cultures or b) different expressions of a single underlying truth. Or both. :P And let's not make things equivalent too quickly. Anyone can see where things are similar. The hard part is knowing which differences are important.
As for why, say, Christianity instead of anything else, if you want objective reasons, I've got a couple. The first is its compatibility with reason. Given a very few theistic premises (e.g. God is the creator, God is love) plus the facts about the world as we know it, we can reconstruct a very large portion of Christian doctrine on a simply logical basis. Another is historicity - extraordinary phenomena like the Church in all her rags and her riches seem to require an extraordinary explanation. And then there's the incredible sanity of the faith - the way it unites science and story, history and myth, nature and the supernatural, mercy and justice, humanity and God. I have never met a truth in another worldview or religion that I have not found more reasonable, more paradoxical, and more beautiful in Christianity. Of course, I'm biased - but take that for whatever it's worth. ;)
I find Islam to be more compassionate, there are more doctrines focused around kindness and sharing than the Christians, there is no "sin" and God is forgiving if you are unable to do the things he asks (such as the US Army forcing Muslim prisoners to eat pork)
Don't forget, Catholicism = Christianity.
I would call it a healthy appreciation for the beauty, the wonder, and the opportunities of life. If it's foolish to take delight in flowers, or to want to climb a mountain just because it's there, or to imagine what it would be like to dive through a cloud, call me a hopeless fool. :)If you accomplish everything you want to in life, I think you lack imagination. ;)I do believe the correct terms are foolish ambition and greed.
So, if you know you'll never accomplish everything you want in life Naivetry, what's the point? I prefer to have a simpler view of life, it doesn't need to be very complex for me to be happy.I agree - complexity for me hinders happiness. But that's not what I'm saying at all. I feel sorry for someone who, at the end of the day, says that life holds nothing more for them. It is a good thing - it probably the best human thing - to be satisfied and happy with the life you have lived; it is another to say that life had nothing more to offer. Maybe an example. It's perfectly alright with me if I never learn to surf; I will not be lying on my deathbed wishing someone had taught me how. But if I ever said that learning to surf is not worthwhile, I would be closed-mindedly stunting my own ability to appreciate every aspect of existence. And that's what I mean by a lack of imagination.
A never-ending beginning is an oxymoron. You can't actually begin anything if you're never done with the beginning. Would it help if I called death the beginning, and heaven the real adventure?I suspect that life's not through with us when we get to heaven. Heaven's just a name for the reality God lives in - the reality that we pray comes to earth ("Thy kingdom come..."). Heaven is not the end of the story. It's just the beginning of the real adventure.A beginning that lasts for eternity. It really does sound adventorturous like the Never-Ending Story.
Many of Christianity's moral codes defy rational thought.Point me to some.
Khab, religious codes shouldn't be completely intertwined so that you have to read everything to understand a bit. The Ten Commandments are possibly the most common ones that are quoted from the Bible directly and the story surrounding it is just filler compared to them.That intertwining is called history and reason. It's much easier to criticize something that's historically arbitrary and illogical, so I can see why you might prefer it. ;) But "a text without a context is a pretext." If you're going to criticize something, you should criticize what it actually is, and not a strawman. I won't defend a strawman - it's as much my enemy as yours.
I actually didn't misstate the Ten Commandments, I just used the ones provided by the Evangelical Lutheran Church.*peruses wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Division_of_the_commandments)* Well, that doesn't make any sense. :P I think the Anglican, Reformed, and other Protestants have this one right.
Plain, rational observations? That just doesn't seem to fit in, I'm afraid, considering that greed is an integral part of humanity and many of the commandments deny the right to practice that.It's based on plain, rational observations that unrestrained greed, for example, harms people. There are 2 out of the 10 commandments as I count them (or 3 as you do, but not "many") that might restrain one's greed (#8 and #10 in my numbering) and they both deal with not wanting stuff that belongs to someone else. And that's just common sense for how to run a marginally peaceful society, no matter what Ayn Rand may tell you.
It just seems to me that Commandment #10 and Commandment #4 are going to be broken no matter what.Not necessarily. Sure, every teenager has spats with Mom and Dad, but you can still respect them at the end of the day. And coveting isn't just saying to your neighbor, "Ooh, you have a Wii, I want one of those" - it's wanting his Wii, or his wife, or whatever... not in idle fancy or even in serious bargaining, but with malicious intent.
And I see no reason why we should follow some "laws" laid out by "God", especially if you don't worship that "God" at all. The Commandments make rational sense, yes, but I wouldn't follow them just because "God" told me to.And certainly I would never ask you to. Follow them because they're rational - that's why, having grown out of the Sunday school explanations, I still do - and still would, even if I didn't also believe they are rational because instated for a rational world by a rational God. But for people unable or disinclined to pursue rational, as opposed to merely selfish, lines of moral reasoning, the 10 Commandments give a very summary outline of and training in some basic, rational, moral findings. For those in every age who refuse to listen to simple reason...
you still have to listen to your heartSo we agree, then?
A solid emotional alternative? Oxymoronic at best.No more so than "settling for" feelings. We can at least name the emotions of bliss and the joy of salvation - do you have so much as names for your hypothetical alternatives?
Have you considered that perchance your comparison between bread and starvation is invalid? What if you are starving?If I'm starving by eating bread, give me something else to eat. Propose an alternative. All you've done thus far is suggest that bliss isn't good enough, which is a statement I'm perfectly willing to accept, if you can tell me why you think there's something better, and what you think that something is. Until then, the something I've got is better than the nothing you're offering.
Faith is not science. Because you believe it, doesn't mean it either exists, nor would it necessarily apply to us.
It would apply to you if it exists and if you want to find out whether it exists, there's only one way to do so.
Alternatively, if you settle for the feelings of bliss and salvation, you might very well be missing something even better.
Because here's the real trick - emotions aren't on some kind of absolute scale of intensity. It's from how far down you've come that determines how deeply you experience something good. So give me jumping on a pogo stick any day over levitation. I prefer continual effort with spotty results to total desensitization.