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Author Topic: Concerning the mind and repentance  (Read 11309 times)

Offline Solnath

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #75 on: July 28, 2007, 01:59:32 PM »
Well, in my view the person would go to Hell as by mere actions they cannot pay for their sins and the original sin made by Adam and Eve. However, based on the rest of this conversation, it depends on whether they ignored religion actively or just didn't hear about it.
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Offline Xyrael

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #76 on: July 28, 2007, 07:57:40 PM »
I just don't see how Christians can assume it's a safe bet that Hindi will go to their hell, while they refuse the idea of reincarnation. One seems just as likely as another, it's a bit snotty to assume you're right they're wrong when neither has more proof beyond ancient texts and personal belief. Personally, I view life as a one time offer with no chance to insert another quarter and play again.
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #77 on: July 28, 2007, 09:22:02 PM »
They think they're right because if they didn't, they wouldn't think they're right.
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Offline Xyrael

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2007, 09:46:57 PM »
Why does everything have to be right and wrong, good and evil, black and white... sometimes you're given a question and both answers are right. Have you ever noted the similarities between some religions claiming to not be related? (hinduism and catholicism, where hindu gods are equiv to catholic saints)

I can see why they want to be right, but what if it's like AD&D and there are multiple gods each with their own heaven? You go to the heaven controlled by the deity of your preference  :D
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2007, 10:23:27 PM »
Then people will have been Wrong. Morality controls people. Organised religion aims to do exactly that.
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Offline Khablan

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2007, 10:37:23 PM »
Why does there have to be multiple gods?  What if it's all the same god, and each culture has developed different ways of worshipping that same god?
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Offline Omnipius

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2007, 03:49:51 AM »
Well in the case of Western religions it literally is all the same God. This is why the media have started properly translating 'Allah' to 'God'. As much as they all don't want to admit it, Enlil, Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh, God, and Allah are all one and the same.
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2007, 01:51:57 PM »
Yep, me.
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Offline Khablan

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2007, 04:54:08 AM »
You're so humble, Soly, dear.
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2007, 08:08:31 AM »
Someone has to lighten up the conversation. Besides, I never said I'm *all* of god, though that might be possible as well.
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Offline Naivetry

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2007, 08:50:49 AM »
But what's the point of heaven if you accomplish everything you want to in life?
If you accomplish everything you want to in life, I think you lack imagination.   ;)

That's always been my little problem with heaven: "It's all good and perfect? Sounds boring." Now I'm not one to wish for hell either, I just enjoy the trials and tribulations of life.
I suspect that life's not through with us when we get to heaven.  Heaven's just a name for the reality God lives in - the reality that we pray comes to earth ("Thy kingdom come...").  Heaven is not the end of the story.  It's just the beginning of the real adventure.

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If one spends one's life seeking to improve the world with little regard to religion and no expectation of reward or punishment in an afterlife, what would become of said person according to your understanding?
I wonder on what grounds a person seeking to improve the world could give little regard to religion.  It is, after all, a major element of every human culture and a motivation for both terrible atrocities and awe-inspiring selflessness.  If any of it's true, it's the single most important aspect of human existence.  If it's false, it is still a major factor in understanding the workings of both individuals and society.  To ignore it seems like wearing blinders... and for what reason?  Fear?  Laziness?  Anyone looking to make an impact on the world must avoid both.

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Well in the case of Western religions it literally is all the same God. This is why the media have started properly translating 'Allah' to 'God'. As much as they all don't want to admit it, Enlil, Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh, God, and Allah are all one and the same.
They may have certain origins and concepts in common, but that certainly doesn't mean they're the same.

Why does everything have to be right and wrong, good and evil, black and white... sometimes you're given a question and both answers are right. Have you ever noted the similarities between some religions claiming to not be related? (hinduism and catholicism, where hindu gods are equiv to catholic saints)
The similarities reflect either a) similarities in human thought across cultures or b) different expressions of a single underlying truth.  Or both.  :P  And let's not make things equivalent too quickly.  Anyone can see where things are similar.  The hard part is knowing which differences are important.

As for why, say, Christianity instead of anything else, if you want objective reasons, I've got a couple.  The first is its compatibility with reason.  Given a very few theistic premises (e.g. God is the creator, God is love) plus the facts about the world as we know it, we can reconstruct a very large portion of Christian doctrine on a simply logical basis.  Another is historicity - extraordinary phenomena like the Church in all her rags and her riches seem to require an extraordinary explanation.  And then there's the incredible sanity of the faith - the way it unites science and story, history and myth, nature and the supernatural, mercy and justice, humanity and God.  I have never met a truth in another worldview or religion that I have not found more reasonable, more paradoxical, and more beautiful in Christianity.  Of course, I'm biased - but take that for whatever it's worth.    ;)
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2007, 11:03:10 AM »
But what's the point of heaven if you accomplish everything you want to in life?
If you accomplish everything you want to in life, I think you lack imagination.   ;)
I do believe the correct terms are foolish ambition and greed.

That's always been my little problem with heaven: "It's all good and perfect? Sounds boring." Now I'm not one to wish for hell either, I just enjoy the trials and tribulations of life.
I suspect that life's not through with us when we get to heaven.  Heaven's just a name for the reality God lives in - the reality that we pray comes to earth ("Thy kingdom come...").  Heaven is not the end of the story.  It's just the beginning of the real adventure.
A beginning that lasts for eternity. It really does sound adventorturous like the Never-Ending Story.

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If one spends one's life seeking to improve the world with little regard to religion and no expectation of reward or punishment in an afterlife, what would become of said person according to your understanding?
I wonder on what grounds a person seeking to improve the world could give little regard to religion.  It is, after all, a major element of every human culture and a motivation for both terrible atrocities and awe-inspiring selflessness.  If any of it's true, it's the single most important aspect of human existence.  If it's false, it is still a major factor in understanding the workings of both individuals and society.  To ignore it seems like wearing blinders... and for what reason?  Fear?  Laziness?  Anyone looking to make an impact on the world must avoid both.
Touché.

Quote
Well in the case of Western religions it literally is all the same God. This is why the media have started properly translating 'Allah' to 'God'. As much as they all don't want to admit it, Enlil, Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Yahweh, God, and Allah are all one and the same.
They may have certain origins and concepts in common, but that certainly doesn't mean they're the same.
I wouldn't let Enlil, Ra, Zeus or Jupiter on the list. The three last are in their own league, Omnipotencia Maximus.

Why does everything have to be right and wrong, good and evil, black and white... sometimes you're given a question and both answers are right. Have you ever noted the similarities between some religions claiming to not be related? (hinduism and catholicism, where hindu gods are equiv to catholic saints)
The similarities reflect either a) similarities in human thought across cultures or b) different expressions of a single underlying truth.  Or both.  :P  And let's not make things equivalent too quickly.  Anyone can see where things are similar.  The hard part is knowing which differences are important.

As for why, say, Christianity instead of anything else, if you want objective reasons, I've got a couple.  The first is its compatibility with reason.  Given a very few theistic premises (e.g. God is the creator, God is love) plus the facts about the world as we know it, we can reconstruct a very large portion of Christian doctrine on a simply logical basis.  Another is historicity - extraordinary phenomena like the Church in all her rags and her riches seem to require an extraordinary explanation.  And then there's the incredible sanity of the faith - the way it unites science and story, history and myth, nature and the supernatural, mercy and justice, humanity and God.  I have never met a truth in another worldview or religion that I have not found more reasonable, more paradoxical, and more beautiful in Christianity.  Of course, I'm biased - but take that for whatever it's worth.    ;)
Many of Christianity's moral codes defy rational thought. Then again, I'm biased as well.

I'd like to open up a topic I have a morbid fascination in, the Ten Commandments. Wasn't Charlton Heston great, I mean, he-

  • I am the Lord thy God. You shall have no other gods.
  • Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
  • Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  • Honor thy father and thy mother.
  • Thou shalt not kill.
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
  • Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.
  • Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbour's.

I am the Lord thy God. You shall have no other gods.

A good start, says who's the Big Man. And who's the bitch.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Biatch!

Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

"For being a good beeyotch, we shall reward you one free day per week. However, on that day you'll still be our beeyotch and won't do what we won't allow you to. Nyah!"

Honor thy father and thy mother.

A good starting premises, but that's about it. My parents get big points for having sex and my mother gets megapoints for pregnancy and labour, but Jesus on a pogostick, Respek wears out. Just because I'm genetically linked to them doesn't mean that they can't be not only a few notches below my ladder-o-respek, but in fact at Niagara Falls in a barrel falling down.

Thou shalt not kill.

This one is good. However, it's pretty ambiguous with all the euthanasia and abortion messes today. On the other hand if this is extended to all interpersonal violence, even better. You keep your anger at bay and I won't sic Max on anyone. Everyone's a winner. Except Max.

I shan't touch overpopulation, that can be weeded out by birth control, which is a great idea.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

On one hand, it encourages to be faithful and not break people's hearts. Then again, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But it might kill them, so stick to this if no super hotties show up.

Thou shalt not steal.

You know, these three latest ones all fall under "do unto others as you'd prefer that the others do unto you a thousandfold" in most cases. However, stealing may be essential for survival (powertools in the mall during a zombie attack), so this is a guideline. Oh, and thou shalt not kill does not apply to the undead, they're already dead.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Don't lie. Unless it's for a great joke. Then minimise damage.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Don't be greedy. I.e. break the system and economy. Won't work, but don't want too much so you won't be too focused on real estate.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbour's.

Same as above, and remember the ones about adultery and stealing.
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Offline Khablan

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2007, 02:51:58 PM »
Soly, have you ever read the text surrounding those ten commandments?  There's actually a lot more to it than that.  I found it to be a quite interesting portrait of Moses and his role.
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Offline Xyrael

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2007, 03:04:16 PM »
So they just threw in the 10th commandment to make it a nice round number really.

Thou shalt not kill is found in nearly every culture, regardless of religion.

The bit about killing seems to be ignored when Republicans wants a war, they seem to find some tiny text in the back that says it's ok to kill when they're your enemy... or do they follow the example of the Hebrews taking the land of Canaan by force... something like that

So, if you know you'll never accomplish everything you want in life Naivetry, what's the point? I prefer to have a simpler view of life, it doesn't need to be very complex for me to be happy.

If you read the actual texts for the Jews, Muslims, and Christians, you will find out Yahweh and Allah are just words for God. Allah is Arabic for God, Yahweh is Hebrew (well Yahweh has more meaning, actually God is a spinoff of Yahweh, but the Bible does not claim the God is not Yahweh). Ra, Jupiter, Zeus etc. are in effect the same, but the old Gods are emotions taken to extremes, Hera is jealousy/pride, Zeus is passion, etc.

I find Islam to be more compassionate, there are more doctrines focused around kindness and sharing than the Christians, there is no "sin" and God is forgiving if you are unable to do the things he asks (such as the US Army forcing Muslim prisoners to eat pork)
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Concerning the mind and repentance
« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2007, 09:23:52 PM »
Khab, religious codes shouldn't be completely intertwined so that you have to read everything to understand a bit. The Ten Commandments are possibly the most common ones that are quoted from the Bible directly and the story surrounding it is just filler compared to them.
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