Concerning the mind and repentance

[Solnath]

Yes, well, considering that sentient people are the de facto higher power, everything works out just fine.

However, why would the universe have a shape we can name now? Maybe it's a gzzzazrzx for all we know.

[Tacolicious]

The suggested shape of the universe applies to the general idea of the structure as compared to a functional schematic. As such the idea being expressed through "my" mind - if all things are interconnected then define a separate self - would be expressible in the shapes of my mind. In this case the torus. We can't truly describe the shape of the universe for the same reason we can't be sealed in a box and expected to accurately describe how it looks from the outside. Even that analogy is flawed but all equations have their margins of error, so what is a poor Tacoman to do?

[Naivetry]

I agree with you on many points, Taco.  I don't really see why you object to repentance to a higher power, however.  Repentance isn't saying "I'm wish this had never happened."  That's rather pointless, because of course whatever it is has happened.  If having good intentions doesn't make something right, intentions after the fact don't make up for it either.  Actions are what matters.  If you say you learn from your mistakes, so that you act differently in the future, I don't think any higher powers would care whether or not you regretted having made those mistakes.  We ought to regret and repent of the harm we have done to others; we should never regret or repent growing wiser from the choices we have made.

[Tacolicious]

This is why I don't repent to a higher power. I take responsibility for how I (ab)use my own free will.

[Talmann]

Agreed. One can change their actions themselves, without "repenting" to a "higher power".

Just so ya know... *Talmann is agnostic and has no true religion*

[Naivetry]

This is going to sound mind-numbingly obvious, but bear with me - repenting to a higher power only makes rational sense if you believe there is a higher power concerned with morality.

In fact, repenting to a higher power only makes sense if you believe that your actions do not only harm other people, but harm God.  And God forgiving people for what they've done only makes sense if God is the one really hurt by it.  I don't know about you, but I generally don't go around forgiving Bobby for stepping on Susie's toe.  It's not my toe, after all.  Nothing can give God the right to forgive people unless God is the injured party in every wrongdoing.  So the whole fabric of religious repentance only holds together if you believe that God is good and is intimately involved with the sufferings of the world.

Emotionally, repenting to a higher power makes a great deal of sense.  Sometimes we can't face the people we've hurt to ask for their forgiveness... sometimes they can't give it.  So we can either learn to ignore guilt (which can be surprisingly easy to do - one merely avoids thought), face up to it (not so easy), or seek absolution (which still involves facing up to it).

At any rate, all repentance has to involve taking responsibility for what you've done.  It's just a question of how you try to live with yourself afterwards.

[Tacolicious]

Well, there are many paths to enlightenment my friend. I am happy to walk mine and happy to leave you all free to choose yours and can only hope for the same respect.

To each their own. 

[Eientei]

This is going to sound mind-numbingly obvious, but bear with me - repenting to a higher power only makes rational sense if you believe there is a higher power concerned with morality.

In fact, repenting to a higher power only makes sense if you believe that your actions do not only harm other people, but harm God.  And God forgiving people for what they've done only makes sense if God is the one really hurt by it.  I don't know about you, but I generally don't go around forgiving Bobby for stepping on Susie's toe.  It's not my toe, after all.  Nothing can give God the right to forgive people unless God is the injured party in every wrongdoing.  So the whole fabric of religious repentance only holds together if you believe that God is good and is intimately involved with the sufferings of the world.

Emotionally, repenting to a higher power makes a great deal of sense.  Sometimes we can't face the people we've hurt to ask for their forgiveness... sometimes they can't give it.  So we can either learn to ignore guilt (which can be surprisingly easy to do - one merely avoids thought), face up to it (not so easy), or seek absolution (which still involves facing up to it).

At any rate, all repentance has to involve taking responsibility for what you've done.  It's just a question of how you try to live with yourself afterwards.

You bring up a good point, but there's a difference between my forgiving Bobby for stepping on Susie's toe and a higher power forgiving me for punching my friend in a sudden rage (not that that's ever happened or anything.)  A higher power (God, whatever you want to call it), assuming it exists, presumably has authority over me and everyone else by virtue of its creating humanity.  To look at it another way, since he created us, we're somehow "his", and so when we injure ourselves and each other we indirectly injure God.  That argument might be offensive to our sense of independence, but it's a rational way for someone to look at repentance in religious terms.  If you don't see the higher power as the creative force, however, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Naivetry]

^ True.  Another good point.   

[Solnath]

ONE

If (the Christian) God is omnipotent, humans have no free will as everything belongs to the "divine plan." You kill someone, God wanted you to do it, so he has no reason to be mad at you.

TWO

If any God is powerful enough to create all of existence... why on earth would he give a damn about a few people?

[Khablan]

All-knowing doesn't mean all-planning.

What if the god wasn't micro-managing every moment of every day?  What if he just put the ball in motion and sat back and watched what people made of it?  And therefore, free will governs peoples' actions, and nature takes its course.  What if there was no god saying "Because of my divine plan, so-and-so has to die today."  He died today because some idiot got drunk and ran him over, plain and simple.  Life isn't 'fair' or 'unfair'.  Maybe life just is. 

[Tacolicious]

If that's the case then you still don't have to seek his (or her) forgiveness because God seems perfectly happy to let the ball roll as it pleases.

[Khablan]

Perhaps it would be of more value and importance to seek one's own forgiveness.

[Tacolicious]

Exactly  and not only to forgive oneself but to learn from one's own mistakes

[Naivetry]

The majority of Christian denominations affirm free will.  I wouldn't be a Christian if that weren't the case, and that's why I'm not a Calvinist.

Khab's right: all-knowing =/= all-planning.

But Taco, we wouldn't really want God to go around smiting the evildoers, particularly when they happened to be us.    (The Christian) God is nice, aka merciful, and usually goes in for a simple program of cause and effect instead.  Gives us a chance to learn.

Forgiving yourself is all well and good, and I agree that we need to do it and move on with our lives.  But sometimes you need to know that other people - and when people fail, God - can forgive you before you can find the courage to forgive yourself.