Concerning the mind and repentance

[Solnath]

Anyway, my earlier point concerning the bread metaphor requires clarification. Instead of starving all the time, why not eat for the joy of eating and still be happy while you don't eat?

[Naivetry]

But Soly, we were using "bread and water" to refer to emotions.

So are you saying, "instead of being unsatisfied all the time, why not feel for the joy of feeling and still feel happy when you don't feel" ?

Because I think that still doesn't make sense...

[Solnath]

I thought the bread and water metaphor was for the connection to God. However, that's pretty close as well.

"Why not feel happy all the time because you can and there are too many reasons not to do so and at some times, feel even happier because some reasons are even better" would be a bit closer to the point, though.

[Naivetry]

Well, my first thought would be that sometimes and for some people, it's not so easy to choose to feel happy.

Second, the whole point of the metaphor was to criticize your statement:

Alternatively, if you settle for the feelings of bliss and salvation, you might very well be missing something even better.

You're saying something different, now, and I mostly agree with this new outlook.

[Solnath]

Well, I might have been incoherent, but the point there was that instead of having happiness some of the time (i.e. when you're praying or otherwise connected to your God) you could extend that feeling to encompass the whole of your life. By making that state the status quo, one would be able to reach even higher sensations.

Metaphorically, it's like trying to reach apples hanging from a tree. From the ground you can reach some of them if you jump, but if you elevate yourself to their level, you can get them whenever you want. And just like with the tree, once you have done so, you'll be able to see the sky beyond it and reach for the clouds, stars, etc.

[Naivetry]

"Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

 

I'm not concerned with attaining some bigger and better emotional high, however.  I've been in some pretty low places (*starts humming...*) and there's nothing like that contrast to make you appreciate being able to stand, let alone jump and grab an apple or two.

Because here's the real trick - emotions aren't on some kind of absolute scale of intensity.  It's from how far down you've come that determines how deeply you experience something good.  So give me jumping on a pogo stick any day over levitation.  I prefer continual effort with spotty results to total desensitization.

[Solnath]

Because here's the real trick - emotions aren't on some kind of absolute scale of intensity.  It's from how far down you've come that determines how deeply you experience something good.  So give me jumping on a pogo stick any day over levitation.  I prefer continual effort with spotty results to total desensitization.

I used to think so as well. One of the few times I'm happy that I was wrong.

[Naivetry]

Oh, I'm wrong.  Well, that's clearly convincing.   

I am totally uninterested in how our experience of emotions might measure up. No direct, objective comparison of subjective experience is possible.  So do you want to make some sort of point or argument about religion, or just keep trading metaphors until we find one that suits us both?

Because you have to be able to account for the reality of things like depression, anger, grief, shame, etc.  They all serve a purpose.  To eliminate them (without also eliminating the reasons for them) would make us less than human.

So how about a new metaphor - climbing a mountain.  If you've ever been hiking, you know that often progress up can only be achieved after movement down.  Fits both our models, wouldn't you say?

[Solnath]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with experiencing all emotions, only with letting them overrule rational thinking and the happiness. I'd rather be determined than angry, rather contemplative than depressed, rather accepting than grieving, rather improving myself than ashamed, etc.

Shame caught my eye on that list; a disgusting emotion that implies that one has failed themselves and is solely used to crush spirit.

In my mind that mountain must be a bit different, because every time you go down it, you feel the negative sides of emotions instead of the positives. For example, let's examine the emotion that creates drive: anger/determination. Anger is the negative form, raw and rampant; determination is the positive, more constructive shape. Sometimes you just have to let it run wild and sour? I disagree.

Currently the state of human emotions can be drawn as a simple diagram:

Negative <---------- Emotion ----------> Positive

So that in the case of this which I label as "drive," it would be:

Anger <---------- Drive ----------> Determination

What I propose is that instead of making the formula partial, i.e.:

Drive ----------> Determination

We move along in the progression of emotion to a more advanced sensation where what we now consider to be the "better" alternative is in fact less useful/nice/glorious in comparison to the other one:

Determination <---------- Drive ----------> ? ? ?

Of course, as all emotions are mixed and tangled more often than not, it might be necessary to combine emotions to get the improvements. We've already had physical and cultural evolution, why stop there?