To enlighten the masses.
<Talmann> but you ruined my fun...
<Balthazar> Good.
<Balthazar> You deserved it.
* Talmann mumbles under his breath
<Talmann> fun-killer
<Balthazar> Repent, ye of little faith.
<Talmann> actually, I of NO faith
<Talmann> thus, I need not repent
<Balthazar> You have no faith in anything?
<Talmann> not in the religious terms
<Balthazar> So you do have faith.
<Talmann> which is where you got the quote
<Balthazar> Contexts can be changed.
<Talmann> and I responded in like fashion
<Talmann> And I still need not repent
<Balthazar> Why not?
* Khab gets the popcorn. Another battle of wits!
<Balthazar> You are of some faith, are you not?
<Talmann> Why should I?
<Balthazar> Have you not broken against that faith?
<Talmann> no
<Balthazar> Have you not sinned against yourself?
<Talmann> nope
<Balthazar> Oooh, a liar.
<Talmann> Not recently enough
<Balthazar> Time is irrelevant.
<Talmann> Already "repented" since I last broke my "faith"
<Balthazar> The order of our experience is not the key factor.
* Kor has joined #taijitu
<Balthazar> Why did you break against your faith?
<Talmann> and you have asked me to repent for your killing of fun, of which i should not
<Talmann> hey Kor
<Balthazar> I have told you to repent for your weak attempts at humour.
<Talmann> I shall not tell, it is of my own personal matter
* Korinna has quit IRC (Quit: (Bursts into flames))
<Balthazar> Personal matters matter only if some external observer can evaluate them and thus give them value.
<Talmann> ahh, it was fun though. And i need not repent for that
<Talmann> humor humors
* Kor is now known as Korinna
<Talmann> and the act of humoring is good
<Balthazar> You should repent the fact that you see no need to repent.
<Talmann> therefore I have not sinned
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Korinna
<Talmann> meh
<Balthazar> For arrogance is the greatest sin of man.
<Talmann> as should you, weakling
<Talmann> oh, no... I see reason to repent
<Balthazar> My humanity is... included, but not limited to.
<Talmann> but you are not qualified in my eyes for me to repent to
<Balthazar> I repent, but I understand why.
<Balthazar> Do not repent to others, but be true to yourself.
<Talmann> Naturally
<Balthazar> You cannot live without remaining steadfast with yourself.
<Talmann> therefore why ask you me to repent to you
<Balthazar> I did not.
<Balthazar> I told you to repent.
<Balthazar> Repenting has no object.
<Balthazar> Only a subject.
* Allama digs into the popcorn.
<Talmann> and how could you tell if I had or had not done what you asked?
<Balthazar> I do not need it, I can see the effects later on.
<Balthazar> Repentance shines through.
<Talmann> ahh, RIGHT
<Talmann> [/sarcasm]
<Allama> But how can one judge the repentance of another? Can you feel his soul? See his thoughts?
<Balthazar> When you acknowledge what you have done and - more importantly - why, you grow in spirit.
<Balthazar> I can see their happiness.
<Talmann> So you are saying if anyone "repents" it will change them into a better person/
<Balthazar> Their backpack will lighten up.
<Allama> This is true, but the outer appearance does not change quickly to reflect it in many cases.
<Talmann> ?
<Balthazar> Outer appearance is irrelevant for empaths.
<Balthazar> Their spirits will be lighter and their hearts as well, Tal.
<Allama> Can you feel his essence through the internet?
<Balthazar> (Reference was from my blog.)
<Balthazar> Weakened, but to a certain extent.
<Schwarzchild> Work, blech
<Schwarzchild> Later
* Schwarzchild has left #taijitu
<Allama> I am impressed. You have much to teach us.
<Talmann> oh... so if someone takes pleasure and light-heartedness in macabre things, that repenting would cause him to take more pleasure from those things?
* Allama sits on the floor, waiting for instruction in the ways of electronic empathy.
<Balthazar> Pleasure is not derived directly from actions and the world around us.
<Talmann> what makes a spirit "lighter" or a heart, for that matter
<Balthazar> It comes from living.
<Balthazar> Repentance and self-discovery.
<Allama> The word has many cultural connotations; it may not mean to you what it means to someone else.
<Allama> For the record.
<Talmann> for, what is a spirit but an imagined thing by man, and it would be physically impossible to remove mass from the heart
* Khab wonders what her electronic essence would feel like. And also if it would smell like cookies.
<Talmann> by "repenting"
<Talmann> What kind of cookies
<Balthazar> What is the world, but a figment of imagination?
<Talmann> indeed
<Talmann> but then, what is imagination?
<Balthazar> It is irrelevant whether something essential is illusion because those who live and feel and experience - do so.
<Allama> Consciousness. Your consciousness, of course, might ne naught but the imagining of another being. If the entire universe can be thought of by one being, what is to say you ARE that being and not another figment?
<Balthazar> Truth and falsehood are moralistic and subjective terms.
<Balthazar> The spirit is your persona.
<Allama> ^^^^Agreed, Bal.
<Balthazar> You are your spirit.
<Talmann> who is to say that?
<Balthazar> I am, because I have gone down the rabbit hole.
<Balthazar> I tell you of Oz.
<Allama> Some believe that, as I do, but others believe that the pysical body is who you are. Who is to say this is more or less valid than another belief?
<Balthazar> (Not St. Oz)
<Allama> Oooh, mixing stories? Fanfic crossovers.
<Talmann> who is to say that it is not anything but chemical reactions, causing false colors to be drived inside the head, and interpreted by other chemicals
<Balthazar> Tal, so what if it is?
<Allama> Good question!
<Balthazar> It still is what it is experienced to be.
<Talmann> then we are nothing but masses of carbon compounds, destroying this figment called Earth slowly but surely
<Balthazar> Then we are, so what?
<Balthazar> If this all is just an illusion of a dream in something's imagination, so what?
<Balthazar> We are and hence we can be.
<Talmann> I have told you, and you are not a toddler, asking the simple yet complex why question
<Balthazar> And we should.
<Balthazar> Use punctuation.
<Balthazar> It helps.
<Talmann> [/argument]
<Balthazar> Question marks are great.
<Khab> ?! is even better.
<Balthazar> Should that be interpreted as retreat, Tal?
<Balthazar> Fear of going on?
<Talmann> meh, when arguing, it hinders my ability to get words out faster.
<Balthazar> Getting restless?
<Talmann> nah. just too much smart talk for one day.
<Talmann> heh
<Balthazar> So yes.
<Talmann> Mach' mir nicht auf Cryllic sprechen
* Balthazar gets on a speaking block.
<Balthazar> Hear ye, hear ye, Tal's dreams are doomed!
<Balthazar> He lacks the will to trudge on!
<Talmann> yet you still haven't gotten me to repent
* Thyatira has left #taijitu
* Balthazar steps down.
<Balthazar> Because you refuse.
* Talmann whacks Balt with a fish
<Balthazar> And hence, you are doomed to live forever in cyclical repetition.
<Balthazar> Well, technically no.
<Balthazar> That isn't living.
<Talmann> ok... I'm good with that
<Talmann> fix my mistakes
<Talmann> look at Groundhog Day
<Balthazar> Why should I fix others mistakes?
<Balthazar> Tell me.
<Talmann> I'd get bored... but se la vi
<Talmann> Have you not seen the movie?
<Balthazar> What responsibility do I have to do what others cannot do?
<Talmann> oh, sorry
<Balthazar> I have, unfortunately.
<Talmann> let me clarify
<Talmann> I could fix my mistakes
<Balthazar> Thought so.
<Talmann> cyclical living, and reincarnation, here I come...
<Balthazar> Cyclical repetition is a state where you do not learn new things.
<Balthazar> Mistakes cannot be fixed.
<Talmann> so?
<Balthazar> They are repeated forevermore.
<Talmann> and?
<Talmann> who are you to say that occurs?
<Balthazar> I have seen it.
<Balthazar> Living is not achieved to its potential.
<Talmann> you would be promoting life after death
<Talmann> the same life, but still
<Balthazar> The concept of afterlife is not the concern here.
<Talmann> and one cannot know this without dying one's self
<Balthazar> Cyclical repetition is when you are married for 60 years, go to church on Sundays and do everything the same way over and over again, regardless of the events in the surrounding environment.
<Talmann> you cannot say that cyclical repetition occurs, or will occur for that matter
<Balthazar> It occurs, I know it all too well.
<Talmann> No, that's just stupid people who want to do nothing with their lives. [/my opinion]
<Balthazar> And?
<Balthazar> "It doesn't happen except for stupid people" is your argument?
<Balthazar> If it happens for anyone, it happens.
<Talmann> those people repeat things within one life, not repeat their entire life from birth to death
<Balthazar> Ah, so you have misunderstood me.
<Balthazar> That is exactly the concept of cyclical repetition.
<Talmann> I interpret your "cyclical repetition" that way
<Talmann> ah
<Balthazar> One life is all we can prove to exist, hence I do not speak only theoretically.
<Talmann> so you doom me to that, eh?
<Balthazar> No, you do so.
<Balthazar> Because you refuse to reflect on your actions.
<Balthazar> And more importantly, on your faith.
<Talmann> I am too strong willed a person to be doomed to repeat myself, week to week
<Talmann> or, at least, I think so of myself
<Balthazar> Many have said so before you and many have fallen to the curse.
<Balthazar> Why rely on luck only?
<Talmann> besides, I look forward to traveling the world.
<Balthazar> If you control yourself, you can control your life.
<Talmann> what is luck, eh/
<Talmann> ?
<Talmann> I do control myself
<Balthazar> Why rely on probabilities acting out in your favour, then.
<Talmann> not the world controlling me.
<Balthazar> Are you sure?
<Balthazar> When is the last time someone influenced you greatly.
<Balthazar> Emotionally, intellectually?
<Talmann> Yes. If anything, it is chemical reactions acting within my body mass in correct succession, that controls me
<Talmann> Define emotions and intellect
<Balthazar> I think you should understand them well enough to survive this conversation, stop trying to derail.
<Talmann> hehe
<Balthazar> When's the last time someone made you feel sad or bad or mad?
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o Thel
<Talmann> and why cannot I derail?
<Balthazar> Because this is an exceptionally important discussion.
<Talmann> annoying, as an emotion, is occurring this minute, likely within both of us
<Balthazar> If you do not see that directly, trust me.
<Balthazar> Not in me.
Posted on: 12 July 2007, 21:52:39
<Allama> Annoying or annoyance? ^_-
<Balthazar> I am a blank slate at the moment.
<Talmann> both, Al'
<Balthazar> There is no emotion needed as this is a rational process.
<Talmann> a, yes... the student.
<Talmann> Always eager to learn
<Balthazar> You can say I'm wrong but it will only be convincing if you understand what I'm saying.
<Talmann> no emotion... right. 'Eager' being my key word in the last sentence. But I digress
<Darthimus-Prime> Balthazar eh? hmmm
<Talmann> the world does not control me
<Talmann> Solnath
<Talmann> aka Soly
<Balthazar> Learning is growth, growth leads to strength and strength leads to the control of your will.
<Talmann> again, we do not agree on a point, that we may be just sequences of chemical reactions
<Balthazar> I do not disagree or agree with that statement.
<Talmann> there is no "will", just a heavier amount of chemical reactions
<Balthazar> I do not need to, for it is not concerned in this topic.
<Balthazar> If there is no will, how do you do anything?
<Talmann> there is no strength, just more muscle tissue formed in the body mass
<Balthazar> Not that kind of strength, silly.
<Balthazar> Strength and will are compound terms.
<Talmann> Chemical reactions, happening at certain times within one's brain tissue
<Balthazar> All personal actions spring forth from either the will or the subconciousness.
<Balthazar> Why does it matter what creates the will and the subconcious part of the mind?
<Talmann> define what these terms are, in terms of my reference
<Balthazar> The will is the part of your mind that you are aware of and can control.
<Balthazar> The subconcious is the rest of it.
<Balthazar> Your mind is the sum of your perceptions and experiences.
<Talmann> how can you "control" chemical reactions
<Talmann> ?
<Balthazar> I do not know, but it happens.
<Balthazar> Can you not think for yourself?
<Talmann> Ha HA!
<Talmann> I sense a weakness
<Talmann> a part that you do not know
<Balthazar> Your extravagant use of the term "chemical reactions" implies that what we think and act are only controlled by them.
<Balthazar> Actually, concerning the control of chemical reactions...
<Talmann> your body reacts to what light reflections come in through the eyes, forming a "mental picture".
<Talmann> the chemical process then will take that "picture" and react to it.
<Talmann> For instance
<Balthazar> Hush.
<Talmann> Your body is low on H2O
<Talmann> light reflections depict a glass container, with h2o inside it
<Talmann> your body then sends electrical pulses to the muscles stretching them out to grasp the container and pull it up to the mouth and tipping the cup so that the h2o goes into the body
<Balthazar> The nervous system receives input at a certain pace and reacts to this information. The rate of this process defines the "height" of the creature's sentience and when it reaches a certain threshold, it warps itself into a new dimension where thought and "advanced chemical reaction control" is possible.
<Balthazar> You talk of the body, not the mind.
<Balthazar> The mind controls the body through chemical and physical reactions.
<Talmann> exactly... but then what chemical reactions form the mind.
<Talmann> ?
<Balthazar> As said before, the structure forms the mind.
<Talmann> what structure?
<Balthazar> Enough ropes tied into a big-ass knot mean that in addition to having just ropes you have... a big-ass knot!
<Balthazar> The nervous system and its reactionary movement with the input and output streams.
<Talmann> so... metaphorically speaking...
<Talmann> you are saying
<Talmann> enough chemicals put together forms the mind?
<Balthazar> Enough chemicals put together working efficiently enough and a mind can exist.
<Balthazar> That mind can be destroyed or broken, of course.
<Balthazar> But it should not be, because who knows what enough mind can create?
<Talmann> but how can chemicals be efficient? Efficiency is a man-made concept
<Balthazar> Efficiency is a man-defined concept.
<Balthazar> Work over time.
<Balthazar> Very natural.
<Talmann> chemicals are random, at least in the fact that they have no time-line in which they "should" do something
<Balthazar> Chemicals are not random.
<Balthazar> A single atom might be vaguely random and quantum.
<Talmann> they have places, they will react when other chemicals touch them
<Balthazar> Highly developed carbon-based life-forms are not.
<Talmann> therefore, the movement of the chemicals could be said to be random
<Balthazar> And those places and other chemicals have been developed in 4.5 billion years.
<Balthazar> It's not random.
<Balthazar> Natural selection has made sure that it isn't.
<Talmann> and therefore, the time between reactions is random
<Balthazar> Seldom so.
<Balthazar> Human beings are a result of focus and development created by a random process, granted.
<Talmann> yes
<Balthazar> But, the result of that process has spawned circumstances suitable to sustain sentience and sentient beings can influence events over chemical reactions.
<Talmann> what is sentience but what we have discussed??!
<Balthazar> You say it is random.
<Talmann> sentience is doo-doo! nothing but sequences of chemical reaction in the complex form of the mind!
<Balthazar> I say it is the result of a random process but no longer constrained by the environment only.
<Balthazar> Complex enough to influence themselves!
<Talmann> you said it yourself: enough chemicals put together and a mind can exist
<Balthazar> The very definition of sentience.
<Balthazar> Yes.
<Balthazar> And then there is a mind.
<Balthazar> Which isn't chemicals.
<Balthazar> Greater than the sum of its parts.
<Talmann> what is it then
<Balthazar> It's Awesome.
<Balthazar> It's the mind.
<Talmann> because something has to exist
<Balthazar> It is humanity.
<Talmann> it has to be matter
<Balthazar> Why?
<Talmann> otherwise what is it
<Talmann> ?
<Balthazar> Something else?
<Talmann> like?
<Balthazar> The physical world mightn't be all there is.
<Balthazar> Ether cookies?
<Balthazar> I don't know, but I want to find out.
<Talmann> as do i
<Balthazar> And to find out, I need to develop the mind.
<Talmann> because otherwise, we cannot continue our discussion
<Balthazar> And not hide in a little box titled "no free will."
<Talmann> what is the mind composed of? matter? if so, what? something else? if so, what, and what are its properties?
<Talmann> I can see a scientific study titled such
<Balthazar> Maybe the intense chemical activity has created the biological equivalent of a space-time rapture that actually leads to another dimension we cannot perceive in any way.
<Talmann> or starting with such
<Balthazar> What is science but the study of matter?
<Talmann> perhaps...
<Talmann> true
<Balthazar> If something is outside matter, it isn't science, but it can still exist.
<Talmann> we cannot know, it is above our "knowing"
<Balthazar> As it should be, makes life fun.
<Balthazar> Gives us something to aim at.
<Talmann> which leads to another query, how does the memory work, then.
<Talmann> ?
<Balthazar> I know the answer, but can't remember.
<Balthazar> Poorly, I suppose.
<Talmann> exactly
<Balthazar> Maybe the biological rapture takes metaphysical content floating around and sticks them in a box from which it can look for it when needed.
<Balthazar> And then plugs it into the brain, converting it into impulses for the nervous system and affecting our bodies, causing us to perceive memory.
<Balthazar> That would work.
<Balthazar> The mind is the name of the nexus of operations and the body is just one branch of the government of the mind.
* Balthazar pokes Tal.
<Talmann> huh?
<Talmann> oh, sorry
<Talmann> was reading forum
<Talmann> hmm
<Talmann> heh, good metaphor
<Talmann> I suppose it is possible
<Balthazar> And hence, in an infinite cosmos, it exists.
<Balthazar> And so, science is not the ultimate extension of learning.
<Talmann> quite right
<Talmann> Sol, SCALE has a request
<Balthazar> So you should repent so that you do not fall into the cycle of blind science worship.
<Talmann> who says I will?
<Balthazar> No one, but it would benefit you to do so.
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o Limi
<Balthazar> So it is... logical for you to do so.
<Balthazar> After all, you lose nothing in a metaphysical attempt.
<Talmann> like I said, S.C.A.L.E. has a request for you
<Balthazar> Already there.
<Khab> oooooh a sucker. er... I mean customer.
<Balthazar> But truly, you should repent, because it will help you understand the other branches of your government.
<Balthazar> Hmm, seems to me I get to keep my tribal immunity necklace.
<Balthazar> Go me.
<Talmann> and should I do so, how will it help me?
<Balthazar> Repentance is the process of training the mind-nexus and it is through the mind-nexus that your access and information flow to the other branches increases and becomes easier.
<Talmann> ...
<Balthazar> Understand, amigo?
<Talmann> I will not repent, but I will streamline my information flow
<Balthazar> How will you do that?
* Korinna has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
<Talmann> by training my mind-nexus
<Balthazar> And that is accomplished by repenting.
<Balthazar> Repentance is also known as thinking.
<Talmann> ... No, i refuse to repent
<Balthazar> Really?
Boom.
