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News: The counter-revolution will soon be as dead as the Q Society!

Author Topic: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act  (Read 1495 times)

Offline Wast

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Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« on: November 10, 2015, 07:23:17 PM »
There's been talk of removing the Citizen-Liaison position. At this point, I am convinced it is a good idea. So let's discuss the details here.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 07:25:14 PM by Wast »

Offline Red Mones

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 07:25:16 PM »
I was originally against it because Oz proposed it, and then I decided I should really stop doing that. I do kind of think we should eliminate the office.

Offline AwesomeSaucer

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 07:45:30 PM »
Yes, eventually this is where we should go.  The Mentor program might be a good replacement.
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 08:28:00 PM »
Also, GUILLOTINE ORRI NOW!!!

Actually a very valid point.

I motion to scrap the Liaison Act and where it may be mentioned in favor of a more participative democracy, where we all participate for the future of Taijitu.

 :whip:

Offline Sovereign Dixie

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 09:34:29 PM »
Well.. I mean, the idea of everyone being responsible for the betterment of the region is a good idea. In theory. But isn't that the way that it should be anyway, with or without an office?

Also, couldn't it just also potentially cause more people to do less. Each on of the mindset that "We're all supposed to do something so there are plenty to take up the slack."

And, wouldn't it be more efficient to actually have an individual to oversee-coordinate such efforts?


Offline Dyr Nasad

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 09:42:59 PM »
Well.. I mean, the idea of everyone being responsible for the betterment of the region is a good idea. In theory. But isn't that the way that it should be anyway, with or without an office?

Also, couldn't it just also potentially cause more people to do less. Each on of the mindset that "We're all supposed to do something so there are plenty to take up the slack."

And, wouldn't it be more efficient to actually have an individual to oversee-coordinate such efforts?

Yes, yes, and yes :P

People keep bringing up the removal of this position (and back it up with "reasons"). Those "reasons" are then shown to make little sense through logical arguments like SD's. And then the "pro-repeal" faction does not come back to the table with any new arguments. I am willing to entertain this proposal, like any other. But people need to explain why removing the C-L will help us. No such explanation has been previously provided.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 10:47:06 PM »
Yeah, that old story I have arguments and yours don't qualify as arguments is like a big headed kid.

Liaison pro: Depending on what a person does with it it can actually do some good, it matter not the title but the initiatives.

Liaison con: It matters not if there is a Liaison, even if a guy isn't a Liaison he can make good initiatives for the community, like BBB.
We haven't had a Liaison and it is not the root of any problem in Taijitu, the fact we have bad or absent Liaison doesn't really cause disruption.
Even if you get rid of the position as a permanent one, you can always have it be appointed by the Ecclesia or Delegate with term/objective limits by either one of them. It may still exist as an indicted position, like what you did with Citizen-Mediator.
Being not a single elected position, you may appoint several people to fill the need.
Status quo, you just made up another title, "oh we're all citizens" is BS, you even made ranks in the Militia so we're clearly not "all citizens". We don't really need this as a title, we can all contribute with whatever time we have to offer. For instance Orri had really good ideas, he had no time to implement them, why would we need him elected? He can still participate as a "normal citizen".

#condescendmuch

Offline Dyr Nasad

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 11:02:52 PM »
Interesting how a post that accuses me of condescension can include so much of it.

None of those are arguments for removing the position. If we all have great ideas, we can all still contribute. I am curious where any idea to the contrary is coming from. Is the principle of having this position causing everyone to hold back those glorious ideas? "Nah man, I'm just going to sit here and rot because it isn't my job?..." If that is where we are, then we may very well be beyond saving.

Perhaps a comparison for why it can be helpful - one of the issues that was pointed out in another thread was that many (legislative) ideas have been thrown around, but they never moved forward. Could this not be attributed, at least partially, to a non-functioning Citizen-Initiator?

I do like that you note how C-Ls can be useful in some situations. Yet would not a delegate-appointed position be against all the ultra-pro-democracy, ecclesia-needs-to-vote-on-everything ideas? And I would like there to /always/ be cultural events going on, so have elected positions for tasks would still equal "always having a liaison."

One solution there - perhaps anchor each C-L term with a major event? So, the C-L who runs in November will, in addition to general duties, be focusing on event ABC, and the C-L in February would then focus on a different event, XYZ? That could take some of the vagueness out of the position description.

Offline Sovereign Dixie

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 11:26:49 PM »
Yeah, that old story I have arguments and yours don't qualify as arguments is like a big headed kid.

Liaison pro: Depending on what a person does with it it can actually do some good, it matter not the title but the initiatives.

Liaison con: It matters not if there is a Liaison, even if a guy isn't a Liaison he can make good initiatives for the community, like BBB.
We haven't had a Liaison and it is not the root of any problem in Taijitu, the fact we have bad or absent Liaison doesn't really cause disruption.
Even if you get rid of the position as a permanent one, you can always have it be appointed by the Ecclesia or Delegate with term/objective limits by either one of them. It may still exist as an indicted position, like what you did with Citizen-Mediator.
Being not a single elected position, you may appoint several people to fill the need.
Status quo, you just made up another title, "oh we're all citizens" is BS, you even made ranks in the Militia so we're clearly not "all citizens". We don't really need this as a title, we can all contribute with whatever time we have to offer. For instance Orri had really good ideas, he had no time to implement them, why would we need him elected? He can still participate as a "normal citizen".

#condescendmuch

Delfos, I don't think anyone was trying to be condescending. Lets not be so quick to judge the intent of others words and keep in mind that the tone of text is easily misinterpreted.

So bottom line, the position can do some good, and at worst is neutral. I don't see a problem here. Though I wouldn't be against just having it be a delegate appointed position, or combining it with something like the Citizen Mediator.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 11:29:20 PM by Sovereign Dixie »


Offline Wast

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 03:32:34 AM »
Okay, if one more person throws around the word 'condescending' I am going to seriously consider abusing my authority to 'moderate' these discussions. No wast, calm down, look at the sloth it's so cute omg

Two things to note here. First, the wording in the existing law implies a degree of exclusivity (examples marked in red below). At the very least, this should be revised for clarity. If the explicit responsibilities of the position are sufficiently narrowed, we may be able to find a compromise. I think that the Liaison position is useful for organizing community events with a minimum of legislation (unifying them under a single office) but less useful as a symbolic position.

The question is this: What powers, if any, should the Liaison have that do not require explicit approval from the Ecclesia? Are they enough to justify having an elected position?

And if the Liaison does require approval to establish community events, is the position still useful?

Quote from: Citizen-Liaison Act

[...]

2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.
2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for establishing and running cultural events in the interest of community building.
4. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum, answering their questions and aid in their incorporation into the community.
[...]
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:36:58 AM by Wast »

Offline Khem

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 05:18:17 AM »
Quote from: Khems Proposed Amended Version Of The Citizen-Liaison Act
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Liaison.
2. An election for Citizen-Citizen-Liaison will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.

2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for establishing and running cultural events in the interest of community building. As established by the {insert new cultural events law here}.
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum and answering their questions and aid in their incorporation into the community.

3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their powers,responsibilities, aid in community events and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.

I feel like this could fix the complaints without nerfing the whole thing.

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Offline Delfos

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 05:40:40 AM »
Cultural Events Law...sounds great, but widely unnecessary in our region. What would this entail? Doesn't the phrase that was there already gives it away?

Quote from: Delfos' Proposed Amended Version Of The Citizen-Liaison Act
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of be appointed as Citizen-Liaison.
2. An election forEcclesia may appoint a Citizen-Liaison will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive termsThere can be any number of Citizen-Liaisons as Ecclesia sees fit as well as none..
4. The Ecclesia may remove theany Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.

2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for establishing and running cultural events in the interest of community building. As established by the {insert new cultural events law here}.
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum and answering their questions and aid in their incorporation into the community.

3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their powers,responsibilities and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.


Which would also make it incredibly unnecessary to even have a Liaison Act when we can all be Liaisons on our free goddamn time. I could consider including Citizen-Delegate can nominate a Citizen-Liaison as well but I rather the current Ecclesia-rules-all wording.

Offline Khem

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 05:57:10 AM »
Seems like you've reduced it to Ecclesia mandated responsibilities. I am fine with it as long as the messages get sent and the guides get updated. Though I feel like if there is more than one they should have to work together from a shared template (for cohesion of information). The idea of a group of Liaisons appeals to me as the freetime concerns are lessened when diversified along multiple schedules.

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Offline Delfos

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 06:20:33 AM »
Seems like you've reduced it to Ecclesia mandated responsibilities. I am fine with it as long as the messages get sent and the guides get updated. Though I feel like if there is more than one they should have to work together from a shared template (for cohesion of information). The idea of a group of Liaisons appeals to me as the freetime concerns are lessened when diversified along multiple schedules.

I think we're all competent fellows to make it work.

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Repeal of the Citizen-Liaison Act
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 09:58:31 AM »
I like the approach of electing as many Liasons as we feel like on an ad-hoc basis.
                                 
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