Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Wast on November 10, 2015, 07:23:17 PM
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There's been talk of removing the Citizen-Liaison position. At this point, I am convinced it is a good idea. So let's discuss the details here.
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I was originally against it because Oz proposed it, and then I decided I should really stop doing that. I do kind of think we should eliminate the office.
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Yes, eventually this is where we should go. The Mentor program might be a good replacement.
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Also, GUILLOTINE ORRI NOW!!!
Actually a very valid point.
I motion to scrap the Liaison Act and where it may be mentioned in favor of a more participative democracy, where we all participate for the future of Taijitu.
:whip:
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Well.. I mean, the idea of everyone being responsible for the betterment of the region is a good idea. In theory. But isn't that the way that it should be anyway, with or without an office?
Also, couldn't it just also potentially cause more people to do less. Each on of the mindset that "We're all supposed to do something so there are plenty to take up the slack."
And, wouldn't it be more efficient to actually have an individual to oversee-coordinate such efforts?
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Well.. I mean, the idea of everyone being responsible for the betterment of the region is a good idea. In theory. But isn't that the way that it should be anyway, with or without an office?
Also, couldn't it just also potentially cause more people to do less. Each on of the mindset that "We're all supposed to do something so there are plenty to take up the slack."
And, wouldn't it be more efficient to actually have an individual to oversee-coordinate such efforts?
Yes, yes, and yes :P
People keep bringing up the removal of this position (and back it up with "reasons"). Those "reasons" are then shown to make little sense through logical arguments like SD's. And then the "pro-repeal" faction does not come back to the table with any new arguments. I am willing to entertain this proposal, like any other. But people need to explain why removing the C-L will help us. No such explanation has been previously provided.
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Yeah, that old story I have arguments and yours don't qualify as arguments is like a big headed kid.
Liaison pro: Depending on what a person does with it it can actually do some good, it matter not the title but the initiatives.
Liaison con: It matters not if there is a Liaison, even if a guy isn't a Liaison he can make good initiatives for the community, like BBB.
We haven't had a Liaison and it is not the root of any problem in Taijitu, the fact we have bad or absent Liaison doesn't really cause disruption.
Even if you get rid of the position as a permanent one, you can always have it be appointed by the Ecclesia or Delegate with term/objective limits by either one of them. It may still exist as an indicted position, like what you did with Citizen-Mediator.
Being not a single elected position, you may appoint several people to fill the need.
Status quo, you just made up another title, "oh we're all citizens" is BS, you even made ranks in the Militia so we're clearly not "all citizens". We don't really need this as a title, we can all contribute with whatever time we have to offer. For instance Orri had really good ideas, he had no time to implement them, why would we need him elected? He can still participate as a "normal citizen".
#condescendmuch
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Interesting how a post that accuses me of condescension can include so much of it.
None of those are arguments for removing the position. If we all have great ideas, we can all still contribute. I am curious where any idea to the contrary is coming from. Is the principle of having this position causing everyone to hold back those glorious ideas? "Nah man, I'm just going to sit here and rot because it isn't my job?..." If that is where we are, then we may very well be beyond saving.
Perhaps a comparison for why it can be helpful - one of the issues that was pointed out in another thread was that many (legislative) ideas have been thrown around, but they never moved forward. Could this not be attributed, at least partially, to a non-functioning Citizen-Initiator?
I do like that you note how C-Ls can be useful in some situations. Yet would not a delegate-appointed position be against all the ultra-pro-democracy, ecclesia-needs-to-vote-on-everything ideas? And I would like there to /always/ be cultural events going on, so have elected positions for tasks would still equal "always having a liaison."
One solution there - perhaps anchor each C-L term with a major event? So, the C-L who runs in November will, in addition to general duties, be focusing on event ABC, and the C-L in February would then focus on a different event, XYZ? That could take some of the vagueness out of the position description.
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Yeah, that old story I have arguments and yours don't qualify as arguments is like a big headed kid.
Liaison pro: Depending on what a person does with it it can actually do some good, it matter not the title but the initiatives.
Liaison con: It matters not if there is a Liaison, even if a guy isn't a Liaison he can make good initiatives for the community, like BBB.
We haven't had a Liaison and it is not the root of any problem in Taijitu, the fact we have bad or absent Liaison doesn't really cause disruption.
Even if you get rid of the position as a permanent one, you can always have it be appointed by the Ecclesia or Delegate with term/objective limits by either one of them. It may still exist as an indicted position, like what you did with Citizen-Mediator.
Being not a single elected position, you may appoint several people to fill the need.
Status quo, you just made up another title, "oh we're all citizens" is BS, you even made ranks in the Militia so we're clearly not "all citizens". We don't really need this as a title, we can all contribute with whatever time we have to offer. For instance Orri had really good ideas, he had no time to implement them, why would we need him elected? He can still participate as a "normal citizen".
#condescendmuch
Delfos, I don't think anyone was trying to be condescending. Lets not be so quick to judge the intent of others words and keep in mind that the tone of text is easily misinterpreted.
So bottom line, the position can do some good, and at worst is neutral. I don't see a problem here. Though I wouldn't be against just having it be a delegate appointed position, or combining it with something like the Citizen Mediator.
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Okay, if one more person throws around the word 'condescending' I am going to seriously consider abusing my authority to 'moderate' these discussions. No wast, calm down, look at the sloth it's so cute omg
Two things to note here. First, the wording in the existing law implies a degree of exclusivity (examples marked in red below). At the very least, this should be revised for clarity. If the explicit responsibilities of the position are sufficiently narrowed, we may be able to find a compromise. I think that the Liaison position is useful for organizing community events with a minimum of legislation (unifying them under a single office) but less useful as a symbolic position.
The question is this: What powers, if any, should the Liaison have that do not require explicit approval from the Ecclesia? Are they enough to justify having an elected position?
And if the Liaison does require approval to establish community events, is the position still useful?
[...]
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.
2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for establishing and running cultural events in the interest of community building.
4. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum, answering their questions and aid in their incorporation into the community.
[...]
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1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Liaison.
2. An election for Citizen-Citizen-Liaison will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
[st]1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.[/st]
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
[in]2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for [st]establishing and [/st]running cultural events in the interest of community building. As established by the {insert new cultural events law here}.[/in]
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum [in]and[/in] answering their questions [st]and aid in their incorporation into the community[/st].
3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their [st]powers,[/st]responsibilities, [in]aid in community events[/in] and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.
I feel like this could fix the complaints without nerfing the whole thing.
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Cultural Events Law...sounds great, but widely unnecessary in our region. What would this entail? Doesn't the phrase that was there already gives it away?
1. Qualifications[st] and Election[/st]
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may [st]stand for election to the office of[/st] [in]be appointed as[/in] Citizen-Liaison.
2. [st]An election for[/st][in]Ecclesia may appoint a[/in] Citizen-Liaison [st]will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election[/st] by a majority vote[st], or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant[/st].
3. [st]No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive terms[/st][in]There can be any number of Citizen-Liaisons as Ecclesia sees fit as well as none.[/in].
4. The Ecclesia may remove [st]the[/st][in]any[/in] Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
[st]1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.[/st]
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
[in]2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for [st]establishing and [/st]running cultural events in the interest of community building. As established by the {insert new cultural events law here}.[/in]
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum [in]and[/in] answering their questions [st]and aid in their incorporation into the community[/st].
[st]3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their powers,responsibilities and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.[/st]
Which would also make it incredibly unnecessary to even have a Liaison Act when we can all be Liaisons on our free goddamn time. I could consider including Citizen-Delegate can nominate a Citizen-Liaison as well but I rather the current Ecclesia-rules-all wording.
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Seems like you've reduced it to Ecclesia mandated responsibilities. I am fine with it as long as the messages get sent and the guides get updated. Though I feel like if there is more than one they should have to work together from a shared template (for cohesion of information). The idea of a group of Liaisons appeals to me as the freetime concerns are lessened when diversified along multiple schedules.
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Seems like you've reduced it to Ecclesia mandated responsibilities. I am fine with it as long as the messages get sent and the guides get updated. Though I feel like if there is more than one they should have to work together from a shared template (for cohesion of information). The idea of a group of Liaisons appeals to me as the freetime concerns are lessened when diversified along multiple schedules.
I think we're all competent fellows to make it work.
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I like the approach of electing as many Liasons as we feel like on an ad-hoc basis.
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I am fine with it as long as the messages get sent and the guides get updated. Though I feel like if there is more than one they should have to work together from a shared template (for cohesion of information). The idea of a group of Liaisons appeals to me as the freetime concerns are lessened when diversified along multiple schedules.
Agree, as long as they are "working together from a shared template." This is a mildly confusing place to come to as it is, and the C-Ls should be making it less confusing (i.e. more inviting).
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1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Liaison.
2. An election for Citizen-Citizen-Liaison will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
[st]1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.[/st]
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
[in]2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for [st]establishing and [/st]running cultural events in the interest of community building. As established by the {insert new cultural events law here}.[/in]
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum [in]and[/in] answering their questions [st]and aid in their incorporation into the community[/st].
3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their [st]powers,[/st]responsibilities, [in]aid in community events[/in] and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.
I feel like this could fix the complaints without nerfing the whole thing.
I like this pretty much on the whole.
As for those saying that the Ecclesia could elect multiple CL's... why bother? Khem's proposal allows the CL to appoint Citizen Guides to share in the role -and- the Ecclesia has the ability to even remove them. So what's the harm in giving the CL the responsibility of choosing who they feel would be best to assist in the duty?
With regards to you, Delfos, saying why have the position when everyone should/could act as liason anyway. Well, what's stopping you even if there is a CL? What's stopping all of us from just popping up and being helpful to new citizens? What's stopping us from organising things that we think could help the community? Hell, look at BBB. He's doing shit left and right. He's actually putting his money where his mouth is (literally, in the case of the writing contest) And no one's elected him to do fuck all!
I would like to see Khem's proposal edited to leave in the part where the CL can establish cultural events as well. This will keep the position interesting, and encourage creativity on the part of the CL and their staff. I don't see why the Ecclesia should need approval over something so harmless. I mean, that is the potential damage a "cultural event" could cause? Should someone go fucking bonkers and make "Taijitu Nazi Appreciation Day" or something like that then the Ecclesia could just remove them.
Again, CL position or not. Nothing is stopping any one right now from welcoming newbies or creating "events". But a position to oversee and manage the community is good, it gives leadership and direction. It allows efforts to be focused and leveraged to achieve maximum results.
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Again, CL position or not. Nothing is stopping any one right now from welcoming newbies or creating "events". But a position to oversee and manage the community is good, it gives leadership and direction. It allows efforts to be focused and leveraged to achieve maximum results.
This is actually a good point, but it might make some people feel, well, I don't have the position of Liasion, so I can't really start new things. For example, if Khem was Liasion and someone wanted to do something that was big, it involved a lot of people, and could possibly be inter-regional, they might feel like they don't have the power to do it, and they're crossing certain boundaries. Although, someone could just ask permission if they felt this way, or discuss it with other members.
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Again, CL position or not. Nothing is stopping any one right now from welcoming newbies or creating "events". But a position to oversee and manage the community is good, it gives leadership and direction. It allows efforts to be focused and leveraged to achieve maximum results.
This is actually a good point, but it might make some people feel, well, I don't have the position of Liasion, so I can't really start new things. For example, if Khem was Liasion and someone wanted to do something that was big, it involved a lot of people, and could possibly be inter-regional, they might feel like they don't have the power to do it, and they're crossing certain boundaries. Although, someone could just ask permission if they felt this way, or discuss it with other members.
I really doubt that would be the case. And if someone is afraid initiate a move for the good of the community out of legal concerns then that says that we as a culture have begun to let our laws think too much for us at the cost of the greater good.
The main reason I don't think it would be an issue is because people are already doing things along that nature and seem to feel empowered to do so. Secondly, those who are most likely to want to establish some kind of larger event are most likely already going to be in some governmental capacity simply because of the time and connections needed (if it were inter-regional)
Lastly, it is up to us to communicate that just because a CL exists does not mean the everday citizen is off the hook for trying to help out in some way. I mean.. I would think that would and should be common sense but you never know.
And of course, those who want to do something but don't know what.. would know where to go to obtain information and some guidance in that area via the CL's office.
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Again, CL position or not. Nothing is stopping any one right now from welcoming newbies or creating "events". But a position to oversee and manage the community is good, it gives leadership and direction. It allows efforts to be focused and leveraged to achieve maximum results.
This is actually a good point, but it might make some people feel, well, I don't have the position of Liasion, so I can't really start new things. For example, if Khem was Liasion and someone wanted to do something that was big, it involved a lot of people, and could possibly be inter-regional, they might feel like they don't have the power to do it, and they're crossing certain boundaries. Although, someone could just ask permission if they felt this way, or discuss it with other members.
I really doubt that would be the case. And if someone is afraid initiate a move for the good of the community out of legal concerns then that says that we as a culture have begun to let our laws think too much for us at the cost of the greater good.
The main reason I don't think it would be an issue is because people are already doing things along that nature and seem to feel empowered to do so. Secondly, those who are most likely to want to establish some kind of larger event are most likely already going to be in some governmental capacity simply because of the time and connections needed (if it were inter-regional)
Lastly, it is up to us to communicate that just because a CL exists does not mean the everday citizen is off the hook for trying to help out in some way. I mean.. I would think that would and should be common sense but you never know.
And of course, those who want to do something but don't know what.. would know where to go to obtain information and some guidance in that area via the CL's office.
Makes sense.
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Again, CL position or not. Nothing is stopping any one right now from welcoming newbies or creating "events". But a position to oversee and manage the community is good, it gives leadership and direction. It allows efforts to be focused and leveraged to achieve maximum results.
This is actually a good point, but it might make some people feel, well, I don't have the position of Liasion, so I can't really start new things. For example, if Khem was Liasion and someone wanted to do something that was big, it involved a lot of people, and could possibly be inter-regional, they might feel like they don't have the power to do it, and they're crossing certain boundaries. Although, someone could just ask permission if they felt this way, or discuss it with other members.
I really doubt that would be the case. And if someone is afraid initiate a move for the good of the community out of legal concerns then that says that we as a culture have begun to let our laws think too much for us at the cost of the greater good.
The main reason I don't think it would be an issue is because people are already doing things along that nature and seem to feel empowered to do so. Secondly, those who are most likely to want to establish some kind of larger event are most likely already going to be in some governmental capacity simply because of the time and connections needed (if it were inter-regional)
Lastly, it is up to us to communicate that just because a CL exists does not mean the everday citizen is off the hook for trying to help out in some way. I mean.. I would think that would and should be common sense but you never know.
And of course, those who want to do something but don't know what.. would know where to go to obtain information and some guidance in that area via the CL's office.
Theoretically all of what you've stated should be true, however historically has not been as such. During the initial terms in the office of C-L it had quickly become assumed that this was the only person to do certain things and one should blame said position for nigh unimaginable amounts of nonsense. While in my custody I found it most useful for purposes of making sure new forum members knew what was what and where was where. Perfectly suited to the position of establishing a common template for greeting nations and keeping guides updated.
I'd honestly like if the aspect of community events was completely divorced from the office of C-L, either becoming another temporary office (like mediator) established by a citizen asking to host an event in our regions name or selected whenever we decide to do such a thing.
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So anymore input on this? Are y'all gonna move this to vote? If this is stalled I'm going to start the elections.
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I think we're ready to vote between at least two options, ad hoc or slight reform.
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I have opened a vote HERE (http://forum.taijitu.org/legislative-and-treaty-votes/amend-the-citizen-liaison-act/).