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Author Topic: Statement on Operation in Madrigal  (Read 3254 times)

Offline Bustos

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2015, 02:00:08 AM »
I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing.  I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal.  But I digress and wait for new leadership.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 02:11:24 AM by Bustos »
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Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2015, 02:12:59 AM »
I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing.  I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal.  But I digress and wait for new leadership.

Your belief that the operation is illegal is entirely germane to this thread.

Please, do go on. Why do you think the operation is or was illegal?
                                 
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2015, 02:15:19 AM »
I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing.  I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal.  But I digress and wait for new leadership.

"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Cormac

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2015, 02:32:36 AM »
I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing.  I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal.  But I digress and wait for new leadership.
I... what?

I'm trying to wrap my head around how exactly Funkadelia does nothing, when I frequently witness him doing things, as well as how this was illegal when there is currently no law against any type of military operation, provided the Citizen-Sergeant authorizes it and, if it's longer than the mandated time period, the Ecclesia authorizes it. The Ecclesia is in the process of either authorizing it or not, right now. The law has been followed without incident.
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Offline Bustos

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2015, 02:40:34 AM »
I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing.  I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal.  But I digress and wait for new leadership.

Your belief that the operation is illegal is entirely germane to this thread.

Please, do go on. Why do you think the operation is or was illegal?


How about here?
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Offline Wast

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2015, 09:46:44 AM »
Edit: Maybe this should have been in a different thread.

Bustos has a legitimate point that is worth examining formally. The thread linked is not really relevant to the question (the Sergeant did turn out to be involved) but we don't have to worry about the grievance being moot here. 

Out of compulsive habit, I'll try to organize this (hopefully I have Bustos' argument right):

Legal question: Does the militia act allow for anyone other than the Citizen-Sergeant to order military actions?

The relevant part of the law (important lines bolded):

Quote
[...]
 II.The Militia shall be led by a Citizen-Sergeant.
  • The Citizen-Sergeant shall be elected by the Ecclesia to a four month term.
  • The Citizen-Sergeant may be removed from office by a majority vote of the Ecclesia.
  • The Citizen-Sergeant shall lead the Militia strategically, and shall act as military advisor to the Ecclesia.
III. Militia shall be organized.
  • The Citizen-Sergeant shall delineate rank and responsibility within the Militia.
    IV. The Militia shall be supervised by the Ecclesia.
  • The citizen-sergeant shall be able to order military actions, and the Militia shall respond to treaty obligations.
  • All military occupations lasting longer than three major in-game updates must be approved by the Ecclesia by a two-thirds majority vote.
[...]

Before going on, I'll note (Eluvatar can correct me here) that I'm fairly sure the act was intended to allow for some latitude in decision making if the Sergeant felt the need to delegate authority, since some actions are time sensitive and we can't realistically expect someone to be around all the time. From a practical standpoint, this means the picky legal arguments might be best avoided by just clarifying what was meant and accepting that it wasn't clear in the first place (spirit of the law, etc.). But let's proceed anyway, in excruciating detail:

- First, the law states that the sergeant shall be able to order military actions, and that the Sergeant shall lead the militia. Neither specifies exclusivity, although it does say that the Sergeant will act as military advisor, which I suppose is exclusive (but not relevant).  At this point, we need to determine whether the ability to order military actions is implicitly given to anyone else.

There is only one line to this effect, which says the sergeant shall "delineate rank and responsibility within the Militia." The Citizen-Sergeant, by the act, is a member of the Militia. Hence the question is whether the Sergeant can empower a member of the militia with the Sergeant's explicitly defined power to order operations.

- The Sergeant is an elected official, and implicit in that is the notion that the powers defined within the law are granted specifically to the elected individual for the usual reasons (accountability, trust in their competence, and so on). In most of our other laws, delegation refers to appointment of individuals (Citizen-liaisons, etc.) that 'assist' the elected official with tasks, not effectively assume the position.

- So the issue here is about who acts in the absence of the elected official to execute the powers normally given to them. A core principle of our government is that the Ecclesia will respond to exceptional cases when they arise, thereby obviating the need to explicitly specify all the annoying details that normally bloat legislation. In particular, if a position should go vacant because someone goes missing, the Ecclesia will respond to fill it. The Sergeant's position is special, however, because actions can be time sensitive and the Ecclesia is a relatively slow moving, deliberative body (this is clear from the way the law is worded, e.g. section IV and also the discussion on the law prior to its passage).

- My opinion on this: I think that if we accept the premise that 'acting' leaders are to be selected by the Ecclesia on a case by case basis (which is suggested by the omission of such provisions in our existing laws), then the law should be interpreted to allow the Sergeant to delegate any of his/her powers to someone else at short notice, which includes ordering operations. If there is an abuse of power, the Ecclesia can deal with it.

I reaaaallly shouldn't post this late.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 06:19:51 PM by Wast »

Offline Delfos

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2015, 11:33:20 AM »
I declare this operation was a success, proof of that is the TaiMil aftermath. We're more united on our sovereigntist cause and we actually used GP to piss off people, even if that included Eluvatar.
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Offline Khem

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Re: Statement on Operation in Madrigal
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2015, 11:37:22 AM »
I even joined in for the first time ever.

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