Stance in the Nationstates Gameplay world

[Khem]

The whole raiding and invasion aspect of NS Gameplay isn't exactly my niche, and it would turn the region into something else than what I expect from it. If we're going to bring focus into RP and worldbuilding, as I think was the platform the current party's trying to develop, we shouldn't divert our efforts to raiding.

Well I wouldn't call it a platform but certainly a focus

[Red Mones]

My Stance

• St Oz is not Right
• St Oz is not Right
• St Oz is SUPER-Right

[Hideo Kojima]

I'm not a citizen, but I'm an active member of TITO(defense program) and my job is to make friends with you guys, so I'm kinda for the whole defense thing.

[Delfos]

I'm not a citizen, but I'm an active member of TITO(defense program) and my job is to make friends with you guys, so I'm kinda for the whole defense thing.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnZ5bpH8aec[/yt]

[St Oz]

I'm not a citizen, but I'm an active member of TITO(defense program) and my job is to make friends with you guys, so I'm kinda for the whole defense thing.

Kinda maybe? So there's room for some raiderism.

[Hideo Kojima]

I'm not a citizen, but I'm an active member of TITO(defense program) and my job is to make friends with you guys, so I'm kinda for the whole defense thing.

Kinda maybe? So there's room for some raiderism.

Anti-raiderism, in my case :p

[Prydania]

Taijitu shouldn't be in the business of picking on or destroying other communities.

First off we need to gain some perspective. No one "destroys" communities in NS. A region that's been successfully raided has been, at the worst, inconvenienced. Raiders either leave once they've had their fun or the people of the raided region just re-group and form a new region. Preferably one with an active founder to discourage further raiding.
Friendships aren't torn asunder by raiding. Off-sight message boards aren't shut down. Raiding =/= "destroying communities." It barely qualifies as harassment.

To your larger point. I actually agree. Which is why Taijitu's "sovereignist" ideology is so despicable. Taking a stand to proactively protect Taijitu from those who have attacked us is one thing. Attacking Raiders who have never attacked Taijitu just because they're Raiders? It's hypocritical to the extreme.

[Gulliver]

First off we need to gain some perspective. No one "destroys" communities in NS. A region that's been successfully raided has been, at the worst, inconvenienced. Raiders either leave once they've had their fun or the people of the raided region just re-group and form a new region. Preferably one with an active founder to discourage further raiding.

[region]Fandom Alliance[/region] was a founderless community. Then the raiders came in and never left once they'd "had their fun". They instead stuck around until all the natives were forced to leave and the community fell apart.

More recently, [region]Japan[/region] was another well-off founderless community until they got raided. In this case, the natives (with help from organizations like the Citizens' Militia) were able to win out, but they've had to lock the region for safety because of the permanent threat of raids. New members can't join now and the region is effectively moribund.

And now they're doing the same thing in [region]St Abbaddon[/region], a region which is too old to have ever had  founder. They've been there a month. They have absolutely no intention of leaving once they've "had their fun". They're going to sit there until they have enough influence to boot out all the region's natives so they can refound the region as a lifeless trophy. This is a region and community which is over 10 years old and they're erasing it from the game so they add one more trophy to their collection.

These are just a few of numerous examples. Raiders are perfectly willing to destroy regions when capable just for kicks and a trophy. If Taijitu raids, that's who we'll be running with and chances are we'll end up participating in one of these operations which does cause a community to fall apart.

To your larger point. I actually agree. Which is why Taijitu's "sovereignist" ideology is so despicable. Taking a stand to proactively protect Taijitu from those who have attacked us is one thing. Attacking Raiders who have never attacked Taijitu just because they're Raiders? It's hypocritical to the extreme.

It's not despicable or hypocritical at all. If you willingly violate the sovereignty of another then you forfeit your own, that is an explicitly stated and internally consistent part of the ideology. If you attack regions, then they and their allies have the right to fight back.

[Prydania]

It's not despicable or hypocritical at all.

Well if you say so Gulliver 

If you willingly violate the sovereignty of another then you forfeit your own, that is an explicitly stated and internally consistent part of the ideology. If you attack regions, then they and their allies have the right to fight back.

Taijitu should fight back against those who have attacked it. You go on about "destroying communities." We're no better if we support or contribute to a foreign policy that attacks regions, Raider or otherwise, that have never attacked us.
At the end of the day? "Sovereigntism" is just an excuse to pile on people who enjoy a meta game in a different way you do. I, for one, don't want to see my region be a part of that.

In my opinion? We shouldn't engage in any offensive operation unless the target has expressly harmed Taijitu in the past. And no, TNP or its allies don't count. I know this may come as a shock to some of my colleagues here, but Taijitu is in fact its own distinct region. Let's stand up to those that threatened us. Not go around harassing people who enjoy NS in a way you personally disapprove of.

Fandom Alliance was a founderless community. Then the raiders came in and never left once they'd "had their fun". They instead stuck around until all the natives were forced to leave and the community fell apart.

First off, it's their own fault for not maintaining an active founder.
Secondly? There was nothing stopping the natives from regrouping off-site (on, say, a message board) and founding a new region. Raiders didn't destroy that community. Apathy did.

More recently, Japan was another well-off founderless community until they got raided. In this case, the natives (with help from organizations like the Citizens' Militia) were able to win out, but they've had to lock the region for safety because of the permanent threat of raids. New members can't join now and the region is effectively moribund.

Again. Off-site forums. Skype. IRC. Plenty of options to regroup, leave the Raiders with the abandoned husk Japan, and form a new Founder-serviced region.

And now they're doing the same thing in St Abbaddon, a region which is too old to have ever had  founder. They've been there a month. They have absolutely no intention of leaving once they've "had their fun". They're going to sit there until they have enough influence to boot out all the region's natives so they can refound the region as a lifeless trophy. This is a region and community which is over 10 years old and they're erasing it from the game so they add one more trophy to their collection.

Same thing. Again. I'm sure St. Abbaddon has an off-site forum. I'm sure a community as old as they are have enough established members who have each others' IM information to coordinate outside of the NS site. This isn't a problem. Have the natives leave and establish a new region with a Founder. Something that will all but guarantee Raiders won't even consider attacking.

I'm sorry Gulliver. You keep going on about all of these communities that Raiders have destroyed, and I just don't see it. I see "communities" that had all they needed to survive their NS region being raided but simply didn't care enough to do what was needed to keep things together.
Say Taijitu was, somehow, successfully raided. I'd still talk to my friends I've made here regularly. Oz, OT, Dixie, Delfos, Khem, and POD's contact info wouldn't suddenly vanish from my Skpe address book. The Taijitu forums wouldn't vanish from the innerwebs. The IRC channel would still be there. We'd have the tools to not only continue on as a community but the means to create a new NS region. Taijitu 2: Revenge of the Fallen. A Michael Bay Production. 

This is why the whole NS gameplay thing doesn't interest me. It's not as simple as it not being my cup of tea. I did give it a chance. At the end of the day? It's just various groups of people acting self-righteous about a meta game. Raiding, defending. I can't be bothered to pretend that either has any sort of moral highground. Especially not with the rise of the "sovereigntist" ideology.

What I care about is Taijitu. Even you Gulliver, and Elu I believe we should protect ourselves. No more. No less.   

[Sovereign Dixie]

First off we need to gain some perspective. No one "destroys" communities in NS. A region that's been successfully raided has been, at the worst, inconvenienced. Raiders either leave once they've had their fun or the people of the raided region just re-group and form a new region. Preferably one with an active founder to discourage further raiding.

[region]Fandom Alliance[/region] was a founderless community. Then the raiders came in and never left once they'd "had their fun". They instead stuck around until all the natives were forced to leave and the community fell apart.

More recently, [region]Japan[/region] was another well-off founderless community until they got raided. In this case, the natives (with help from organizations like the Citizens' Militia) were able to win out, but they've had to lock the region for safety because of the permanent threat of raids. New members can't join now and the region is effectively moribund.

And now they're doing the same thing in [region]St Abbaddon[/region], a region which is too old to have ever had  founder. They've been there a month. They have absolutely no intention of leaving once they've "had their fun". They're going to sit there until they have enough influence to boot out all the region's natives so they can refound the region as a lifeless trophy. This is a region and community which is over 10 years old and they're erasing it from the game so they add one more trophy to their collection.

These are just a few of numerous examples. Raiders are perfectly willing to destroy regions when capable just for kicks and a trophy. If Taijitu raids, that's who we'll be running with and chances are we'll end up participating in one of these operations which does cause a community to fall apart.

To your larger point. I actually agree. Which is why Taijitu's "sovereignist" ideology is so despicable. Taking a stand to proactively protect Taijitu from those who have attacked us is one thing. Attacking Raiders who have never attacked Taijitu just because they're Raiders? It's hypocritical to the extreme.

It's not despicable or hypocritical at all. If you willingly violate the sovereignty of another then you forfeit your own, that is an explicitly stated and internally consistent part of the ideology. If you attack regions, then they and their allies have the right to fight back.

Wow. The butt hurt is real. Calm it down there, Churchill.

It takes two to tango, tow halves make a coin blah blah blah. Without raiders the moral high horse riders on the defender end of things would have nothing to wank their morally self righteous hate boners to. *rolls eyes*

I call raiding natural selection. If you're too fucking lazy to make an off site forum or give so few fucks about your regional cohabitants as to form some kind of lasting bond of community beyond NS then *shrugs* sorry bout ya.

In short, cry me a fucking river.

[St Oz]

Den's got some cool stripes.

[Gulliver]

Taijitu should fight back against those who have attacked it. You go on about "destroying communities." We're no better if we support or contribute to a foreign policy that attacks regions, Raider or otherwise, that have never attacked us.
At the end of the day? "Sovereigntism" is just an excuse to pile on people who enjoy a meta game in a different way you do. I, for one, don't want to see my region be a part of that.

There is a difference between attacking communities that have not wronged others and attacking communities who exist solely to victimize other regions. Also, if it's okay for them to pick and choose who they raid, why is it a problem for us to do the same?

In my opinion? We shouldn't engage in any offensive operation unless the target has expressly harmed Taijitu in the past. And no, TNP or its allies don't count. I know this may come as a shock to some of my colleagues here, but Taijitu is in fact its own distinct region.

Our currently military policy was adopted following a free debate and an open, fair vote of citizens, not under the shadowy influence of some foreigners. In fact, TNP's military actually in fact occasionally raids, which conflicts with our current policy.

First off, it's their own fault for not maintaining an active founder.

Only people with access to the founder nation can do that, most people living in these regions don't have that.

Say Taijitu was, somehow, successfully raided. I'd still talk to my friends I've made here regularly. Oz, OT, Dixie, Delfos, Khem, and POD's contact info wouldn't suddenly vanish from my Skpe address book. The Taijitu forums wouldn't vanish from the innerwebs. The IRC channel would still be there. We'd have the tools to not only continue on as a community but the means to create a new NS region. Taijitu 2: Revenge of the Fallen. A Michael Bay Production.

I am surprised you can discard Taijitu so callously in this hypothetical situation. This region is my home and has a history that another region wouldn't. Yes, this is just a browser game and we can rebuild, but being forced out of my home in that game would nevertheless sting and I can empathize with those who actually have had that situation forced  on them. Sometimes a region itself can be an integral part of a community.

Wow. The butt hurt is real. Calm it down there, Churchill.

That we disagree on military policy does not mean that you have to project the worst possible tone on my comments and immediately resort to insult and condescension.

I call raiding natural selection. If you're too fucking lazy to make an off site forum or give so few fucks about your regional cohabitants as to form some kind of lasting bond of community beyond NS then *shrugs* sorry bout ya.

There are currently 85 nations piled on the raider lead in St. Abbaddon. To realistically have a shot at liberating it, you would need to get between 95 and 105 people to simultaneously jump into the region at update without any mistakes, maybe more if they have a lot of active regional officers. I don't think any military in NationStates history, defender or raider, has ever put together an updater force anywhere even near that large. The reality is, once raiders take a region with a handful of updaters, they can freely pile numbers like this into the region if they're set on permanently capturing it, like with St. Abbaddon. Do you really think that its fair to blame founderless regions for being unable to muster a force of unheard, historical proportions to liberate themselves?

[Sovereign Dixie]

I will project whatever I decide to project into the argument because I'm sick and tired after ten fucking years of hearing about the Save The Pixels Foundation.

The amount of smug that defenders generate is probably the true culprit of climate change. Seriously. Every time these inane discussions crop up I feel like I need a fucking pair of hip waders because the shit gets piled on so thick.

I didn't buy the defender talking points back then, nor do I now, or at any point between then and now. If their argument was simply a choice in style of game play, then I would be on board. But instead they go all fucking Sara McLaughlin playing "In the Arms of The Angels" while holding up the latest poster region saying "For only one endo a day, you can help keep the citizens of [Insert Region Here] from suffering brutal online tyranny."

Defender. Raider. It's just playstyle choices. Neither to me are the "Good guys" and any claim to the contrary should be kept purely RP. Except they don't do that, they try to paint themselves as the fucking White Knights of NS and it's fucking stupid.

[Prydania]

Taijitu should fight back against those who have attacked it. You go on about "destroying communities." We're no better if we support or contribute to a foreign policy that attacks regions, Raider or otherwise, that have never attacked us.
At the end of the day? "Sovereigntism" is just an excuse to pile on people who enjoy a meta game in a different way you do. I, for one, don't want to see my region be a part of that.

There is a difference between attacking communities that have not wronged others and attacking communities who exist solely to victimize other regions. Also, if it's okay for them to pick and choose who they raid, why is it a problem for us to do the same?

Because we're not them. All your doing is victimizing someone for playing the game in a way you don't like. Which isn't much better than what Raiders do. It's worse in some ways. At least Raiders are honest about what they're doing.

Our currently military policy was adopted following a free debate and an open, fair vote of citizens...

I'm not high on Taijitu's current "democratic" processes at the moment. It's certainly hard to believe that certain policies haven't been adopted without strong foreign influence. It's no surprise that the people who pushed heavily for "sovereigntism" are heavily involved in other Defender-orineted regions.
And from where I'm standing? The love for an assertive Defender stance isn't universally beloved here.

Only people with access to the founder nation can do that, most people living in these regions don't have that.

Plenty of regions manage to maintain founders. Those that don't? It's a failure on their end. Either by failing to set up a system to ensure the Founder doesn't go inactive (like the system we have) or to develop a community strong enough where the Founder can be addressed by the community as a whole if Founder inactivity is an issue.

Wow. The butt hurt is real. Calm it down there, Churchill.

That we disagree on military policy does not mean that you have to project the worst possible tone on my comments and immediately resort to insult and condescension.

Heh. Given what's transpired over the last month or so? You really shouldn't be playing the "projection" card.

Say Taijitu was, somehow, successfully raided. I'd still talk to my friends I've made here regularly. Oz, OT, Dixie, Delfos, Khem, and POD's contact info wouldn't suddenly vanish from my Skpe address book. The Taijitu forums wouldn't vanish from the innerwebs. The IRC channel would still be there. We'd have the tools to not only continue on as a community but the means to create a new NS region. Taijitu 2: Revenge of the Fallen. A Michael Bay Production.

I am surprised you can discard Taijitu so callously in this hypothetical situation.

Again, with the projection from you. Who said I'm discarding Taijitu in this situation?
You may not like this fact Gulliver, but I consider Taijitu a home of sorts too. I'm not discarding it at all. It's just that Taijitu, to me, is more than a NS region. It's certainly that, but it's so much more. In my opinion.
Taijitu is the people who make it up. This forum, which is safely beyond Raider influence, is Tajitu's online home. Not the NS page. Taijitu is Oz, Dixie, OT, Khem, Delfos, POD Gunner, Myro, Elu, and yourself Gulliver. And so many more people on top of that. We're Taijitu. If, somehow, Taijitu were raided? We'd regroup here. Or over Skype. Or on IRC. We'd set up a new Taijitu region on NS, and our community will have remained unscratched. Unsullied.
Would we be inconvenienced? Yeah, but our community would far from destroyed.

[Sovereign Dixie]

Again, with the projection from you. Who said I'm discarding Taijitu in this situation?
You may not like this fact Gulliver, but I consider Taijitu a home of sorts too. I'm not discarding it at all. It's just that Taijitu, to me, is more than a NS region. It's certainly that, but it's so much more. In my opinion.
Taijitu is the people who make it up. This forum, which is safely beyond Raider influence, is Tajitu's online home. Not the NS page. Taijitu is Oz, Dixie, OT, Khem, Delfos, POD Gunner, Myro, Elu, and yourself Gulliver. And so many more people on top of that. We're Taijitu. If, somehow, Taijitu were raided? We'd regroup here. Or over Skype. Or on IRC. We'd set up a new Taijitu region on NS, and our community will have remained unscratched. Unsullied.
Would we be inconvenienced? Yeah, but our community would far from destroyed.

Not to mention, then we could organise our response to the attack. I'd have a fucking field day with that. *evil grin*