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Author Topic: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant  (Read 6174 times)

Offline Allama

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2015, 06:10:48 PM »
It's not an alternative I agree with, and it's one the region did not vote for, but the alternative of not having a Citizen-Sergeant lead the Militia is an actual alternative to the adopted legislation.
Citizen-sergeant elections doesn't have that option.

Of course it isn't an option in that law: he said not having a Citizen-Sergeant would be an alternative to the current legislation.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2015, 06:15:03 PM »
facepalm

Allama if you don't want to understand what I'm trying to say then at least let others to try, I'm ok if you want to misread what I'm saying for the entirety of your life.

Offline Allama

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2015, 06:20:24 PM »
Yet another post in which Delfos does Thing A, someone points it out, and he goes, "OMG you're doing Thing A!" Yeeeeeeeeesh.

Delfos, you misread Eluvatar so I attempted to help you see what he said. Calm down.

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2015, 06:42:38 PM »
Allama's right about my comment. I meant that when the region voted on the Militia Act, it voted to adopt a Militia Act with a Citizen-Sergeant. It did not vote to adopt an alternative act without one, or to not adopt any act.
                                 
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2015, 06:48:44 PM »
Maybe we're just not exploring many options and we'd benefit on any kind of debate on any kind of thread...just like this one.

Otherwise keep making everyone miss an actual debate by throwing things out of context.

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2015, 06:56:24 PM »
Well I did say
Quote
Proposals come from any form of consensus, right now I see none, I'm don't see anybody representing what I believe in.
This extends to this thread. My first stance is that no wrong was done because nothing says he can't do it, but there is no clear chain-of-command or hierarchy even implicit on the current law, so all this is just what you interpret from what is written.
There is:
Quote from: Militia Act
III.1. The Citizen-Sergeant shall delineate rank and responsibility within the Militia.
"He has the right to delegate" doesn't mean he can create hierarchy, it doesn't have to, and imo, it shouldn't. We all know there is a structured group running the militia justified by "hierarchy", which could as well be a Cabal (lol), that is fine we know "leaders are amazing" and all, it just doesn't have to be that way, even if the law in place.
Google says "cabal" is "a secret political clique or faction." I really, really, really don't think the several noncommissioned officers of the Taijitu Citizens' Militia, their rank being public information, count. I wouldn't describe us as a political clique or faction either, honestly. While most of us are part of the "Sovereigntist" political faction, it is a larger one than just us from what I've seen, and is more of a political philosophy than an organized political faction IMO.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The ranks in the Militia are explicitly provided for, and have been determined in a manner so as to be congruent with the ideas of the glorious revolution: we are all soldiers in the army, none of us commissioned officers. We generally discuss militia matters informally, and explain what we're doing and why.

The actual discussion started about an instance of delegation. If you think delegation is fine, then it doesn't matter if the person delegated to is an NCO or not: the Citizen-Sergeant can delegate running a particular operation to them.

???
The same goes for attacking Bustos for not "following orders", there is really no law against...not following orders, or impeding militia members from participating on other operations, or them to form their own militias.

Sure there is. The Militia Act says the Militia shall be led by a Citizen-Sergeant, that they shall delineate rank and responsibility within the Militia, and that they shall be able to order military actions. It's pretty straightforward that if you join the Militia, you should follow instructions coming down from the Citizen-Sergeant (possibly through a chain of command).

On the other hand no we don't have a law making disobeying a crime. Why should we? We have decided to move away from that sort of thing. Bustos got called out for his refusal to move, this started a discussion, and ultimately Bustos agreed the instruction was legitimate and moved. At no point did anyone do something illegal.

I don't question the legality, I question the interpretation. I'm not criticizing the current Citizen-sergeant nor the operations...at least not in this thread. Yes I'd rather a more ad hoc approach, less "law" might not be a bad thing.

Okay, how would you define what's an operation by the Taijitu Citizens' Militia then?
                                 
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2015, 07:27:00 PM »
There is:
Quote from: Militia Act
III.1. The Citizen-Sergeant shall delineate rank and responsibility within the Militia.
Yes, he can say Bustos is a toilet scrubber and he has to scrub toilets. This is as valid as the current interpretation, but I could see from the beginning that under the operations promoted by people now "leading" the militia it meant traditional military hierarchy. That's fine, but I think as a revolutionary value of equality and all that, maybe we shouldn't make a "toilet scrubber" title and force them to toilet scrub, if you know what I mean. That law also gives him the ability to abolish ranks and remove responsibilities, any elected Citizen-Sergeant can do that, if that's acceptable then maybe we should do that next time.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The ranks in the Militia are explicitly provided for, and have been determined in a manner so as to be congruent with the ideas of the glorious revolution: we are all soldiers in the army, none of us commissioned officers. We generally discuss militia matters informally, and explain what we're doing and why.
None of what you described requires ranks, we generally discuss militia matters informally and people justify them regardless of ranks, that is a good approach, very like what I proposed as a "Syndicalized" or "ad hoc" militia. If people can see the merit in those proposals I will certainly support or write an amendment.

The actual discussion started about an instance of delegation. If you think delegation is fine, then it doesn't matter if the person delegated to is an NCO or not: the Citizen-Sergeant can delegate running a particular operation to them.
I think the Delegation under the current law is fine, I said so. I dislike the ranks and the sometimes autocracy on deciding the operations. Yes the current law gives the Citizen-sergeant the power to decide those things, I just think sometimes we, the militia, do operations for the slightest of reasons. Maybe the above mentioned discussion should be mandatory even if only within the militia in IRC. Maybe even a simple vote within IRC would totally satisfy me and make me say I'm proud for the "work" we're doing. (I've said I'm proud before, didn't I?)

On the other hand no we don't have a law making disobeying a crime. Why should we? We have decided to move away from that sort of thing. Bustos got called out for his refusal to move, this started a discussion, and ultimately Bustos agreed the instruction was legitimate and moved. At no point did anyone do something illegal.
ipsis verbis, I just took this opportunity to discuss underlying matters brought up from Bustos' discussion. How highjacker of me, sorry.

Okay, how would you define what's an operation by the Taijitu Citizens' Militia then?
I think it should arise on need, as it has been for many of them, organized on the spot and executed by those in favor. Those against may bring the operation in question to, what in our current system would most likely fit, the Ecclesia. In a way, we've been doing that, again there's no need for ranks or "orders", it's just more interpretive of free will if it's organized in a more participative way. Participative Democracy ftw.

Kinda like this:
This discussion is no longer fruitful. I believe the Militia should form itself organically whenever it is necessary by participation, whoever wants to participate is free to do so and it may have a SIMPLE ad hoc organization, without the need or attempt to establish military governance. Calling it a Citizens' Militia doesn't make it so.

This happened in the past:
(...)We shall organize ourselves into a militia until our current Delegate Oz officially recognizes this military operation under the Taijituan Army. We shall declare this intention in Taijitu's RMB, a list of those who join the militia will be updated here and transmitted to officials in Osiris.

I sign this declaration of intentions, I join the militia Taijituans for Freedom and Democracy with [INSERT NATION NAME], I will change my flag to the militia flag, move my WA nation to the region Osiris and there endorse Cormac.

PS: Ranks and required membership status, I mean, a citizen doesn't have to be in "our" militia to participate, and as a principle maybe we shouldn't also block anyone that isn't a citizen either, like a foreign dignitary or a random friend from another region wanting to participate on a militia operation with us. Make it more Participatory is what I mean.

Offline Wast

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2015, 09:02:55 AM »
Quote
I think it should arise on need, as it has been for many of them, organized on the spot and executed by those in favor. Those against may bring the operation in question to, what in our current system would most likely fit, the Ecclesia. In a way, we've been doing that, again there's no need for ranks or "orders", it's just more interpretive of free will if it's organized in a more participative way.

My perspective on this probably isn't worth much (since I'm not at all involved in the militia, and barely in the Ecclesia at all), but I'd like to offer at least a few words to the discussion.

So long as the active members of the militia feel the need for occasional deployment, there will be some kind of standing structure to the organization. Establishing the militia provides transparency, accountability and official representation to what would exist anyway. An 'ad hoc' militia would be somewhat confusing (and if I recall, that's what we had before the Act, more or less, and it was confusing).

The ranks may be pulled from 'traditional military hierarchy' but legally speaking they don't carry that much weight (Citizen-Sergeant aside). It's a way of adding flavor to the organization, aesthetics consistent with the revolutionary theme even if it doesn't follow to the egalitarian aspect. So long as that hierarchy doesn't begin to contradict the actual structure of the government/militia/etc., the titles are fine. Drawing purely from strict egalitarianism is, frankly, rather dry.

If you'd like to ban titles within the militia or impose some sort of equality on the structure that the Sergeant (or whoever leads the militia) cannot override, it may be worth opening a new thread. If you'd also like to eliminate the Sergeant altogether then that's a more fundamental change that would also warrant its own thread.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 09:06:20 AM by Wast »

Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2015, 12:44:09 PM »
I accept that I ought to end this long hijack of this thread. I've started a new topic to conclude this discussion in a more official way:
http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/militia-organization/