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Author Topic: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant  (Read 6173 times)

Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2015, 03:36:39 PM »
As stated above, we clearly agreed as a region that the Citizen-Sergeant should be able to command the militia. If you wished to require the Citizen-Sergeant's presence in IRC and in the mission itself, why didn't you bring this up during debate?

And if you have a problem with military ranks (which only exist to give some people power to command others), again: why did you not bring this up during the debate period?

Are you feeling that you should have had the opportunity during the debate to discuss this issue? Maybe you misread something I wrote back then ;) I brought it up plenty of times.

I just read through the original debate and you never made any comment regarding military ranks or the ability of the Citizen-Sergeant to delegate authority. You argued that the Citizen-Sergeant should not have authority in the first place to authorize operations themselves, but that position was voted down and was not the position Bustos advanced.

Maybe, I did say a syndicalized militia, or a completely ad hoc organization, either one is opposite to established military hierarchy which I clearly opposed from the beginning.

And if I do not have the freedom to express what I believe on this issues then I doubt you can call all this "democratic". I have an issue now about how things are being conducted, why can't I talk about it? Dictatorship of a majority? I really doubt you believe that, if you feel things passed in the past cannot be questioned then we're in complete disagreement. Proposals come from any form of consensus, right now I see none, I'm don't see anybody representing what I believe in.

Offline Allama

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2015, 03:40:47 PM »
As stated above, we clearly agreed as a region that the Citizen-Sergeant should be able to command the militia. If you wished to require the Citizen-Sergeant's presence in IRC and in the mission itself, why didn't you bring this up during debate?

And if you have a problem with military ranks (which only exist to give some people power to command others), again: why did you not bring this up during the debate period?

Are you feeling that you should have had the opportunity during the debate to discuss this issue? Maybe you misread something I wrote back then ;) I brought it up plenty of times.

I just read through the original debate and you never made any comment regarding military ranks or the ability of the Citizen-Sergeant to delegate authority. You argued that the Citizen-Sergeant should not have authority in the first place to authorize operations themselves, but that position was voted down and was not the position Bustos advanced.

Maybe, I did say a syndicalized militia, or a completely ad hoc organization, either one is opposite to established military hierarchy which I clearly opposed from the beginning.

And if I do not have the freedom to express what I believe on this issues then I doubt you can call all this "democratic". I have an issue now about how things are being conducted, why can't I talk about it? Dictatorship of a majority? I really doubt you believe that, if you feel things passed in the past cannot be questioned then we're in complete disagreement. Proposals come from any form of consensus, right now I see none, I'm don't see anybody representing what I believe in.

You have the freedom to say whatever you want, question whatever you like. I also have the freedom to point out the fact that you complain, complain, complain constantly but never offer constructive input.

Formally propose your changes if they actually matter to you! That's all I'm suggesting.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2015, 03:50:20 PM »
I also have the freedom to point out the fact that you complain, complain, complain constantly but never offer constructive input.

This is a clear evidence we need couples' counseling. Prejudicial exaggeration is wrong. So many times I've offered constructive input, so many bills resulted from my constructive input, it's really unfair the way you put it, just because you disagree with me.

I don't agree with the interpretation that is being made from the laws that are written, it's past the fact that I'd rather different laws and I've learned to compromise from them. I believe the current system is too hierarchical and none on the law actually talks about a chain of command or the obligation of taijitu citizens to follow a chain of command. Maybe a drawing is required.

Offline Allama

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2015, 03:52:25 PM »
I also have the freedom to point out the fact that you complain, complain, complain constantly but never offer constructive input.

This is a clear evidence we need couples' counseling. Prejudicial exaggeration is wrong. So many times I've offered constructive input, so many bills resulted from my constructive input, it's really unfair the way you put it, just because you disagree with me.

I don't believe I'm exaggerating. I will happily admit to being wrong if you can quote one post since the Glorious Revolution where you say, "Let's make this the law:" and then actually write out the law you want.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2015, 04:10:33 PM »
I am no good at writing laws but I definitely heavily contributed to many laws in place, including the Militia, which was to be "Taijitu Grand Navy" until I suggested the Militia. complain complain complain constantly it blatant prejudice.



Offline Allama

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2015, 04:19:51 PM »
Delfos, when you start accusing people of prejudice just because they don't appreciate your caustic "debate" style, that's trolling.

Pointing out your gross misuse of a very nasty word is not trolling.

Offline Myroria

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2015, 04:32:36 PM »
I am no good at writing laws but I definitely heavily contributed to many laws in place, including the Militia, which was to be "Taijitu Grand Navy" until I suggested the Militia. complain complain complain constantly it blatant prejudice.

If there's one place I would feel prejudice, it's in the legislature of the direct democracy I advocated for for years and later got.
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2015, 04:39:40 PM »
Disregarding my proposals are "complaints" is prejudice to me.

Offline Allama

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2015, 04:47:04 PM »
Disregarding my proposals are "complaints" is prejudice to me.

That'd make sense if words mean whatever you want them to mean, actual definitions be damned.

Luckily, we live in a world with dictionaries.


Offline Funkadelia

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2015, 05:21:59 PM »
You haven't made any proposals yet.
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Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2015, 05:34:19 PM »
While Delfos does sometimes take issue with matters without suggesting an alternative, in this case he actually has. Whether to call his comments "complaints" or "proposals" is missing the point: the question is whether they are constructive or not. His comments are not unconstructive for the reason of not proposing an alternative.

It's not an alternative I agree with, and it's one the region did not vote for, but the alternative of not having a Citizen-Sergeant lead the Militia is an actual alternative to the adopted legislation.

That said, it's not the fault of proponents of the adopted legislation that an alternate proposal was not written up as a bill and voted on. The proponents wrote up a proposal, adjusted it in response to comments in ways that made sense, and then asked for a vote. The Ecclesia voted to adopt the proposal. They had no obligation to put forward a proposal they would not agree with.

I'm not sure that Delfos' comments in this topic have been constructive: this topic was about whether a specific military action was legal. The discussion of whether it should be legal is separable. It's also unreasonable to say "I told you so" when A) Delfos did not oppose having NCOs under the Sergeant specifically and B) no argument has been made as to why the Citizen-Sergeant shouldn't be allowed to delegate running an operation at a time they are unavailable, or otherwise.

Finally, it's not prejudice, Delfos, when someone has known you for years. Allama's complaint, however direct, was not based on a preconception of you without specific familiarity. I wouldn't say you only ever complain. As I said just now, you have actually proposed alternatives many a time. However, reviving previously settled questions and challenging laws and policies without actually proposing alternatives can definitely be unconstructive, and you've made a habit of doing so from time to time which I've seen people find frustrating.

I hope my long digression was constructive, and not further derailment.
                                 
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Legality of Military Actions conducted without Citizen-Sergeant
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2015, 06:06:42 PM »
Well I did say
Quote
Proposals come from any form of consensus, right now I see none, I'm don't see anybody representing what I believe in.
This extends to this thread. My first stance is that no wrong was done because nothing says he can't do it, but there is no clear chain-of-command or hierarchy even implicit on the current law, so all this is just what you interpret from what is written.

"He has the right to delegate" doesn't mean he can create hierarchy, it doesn't have to, and imo, it shouldn't. We all know there is a structured group running the militia justified by "hierarchy", which could as well be a Cabal (lol), that is fine we know "leaders are amazing" and all, it just doesn't have to be that way, even if the law in place.

The same goes for attacking Bustos for not "following orders", there is really no law against...not following orders, or impeding militia members from participating on other operations, or them to form their own militias.

I don't question the legality, I question the interpretation. I'm not criticizing the current Citizen-sergeant nor the operations...at least not in this thread. Yes I'd rather a more ad hoc approach, less "law" might not be a bad thing.

It's not an alternative I agree with, and it's one the region did not vote for, but the alternative of not having a Citizen-Sergeant lead the Militia is an actual alternative to the adopted legislation.
Citizen-sergeant elections doesn't have that option.

Maybe we're just not exploring many options and we'd benefit on any kind of debate on any kind of thread...just like this one.