Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]

[Khem]

To me if the existing laws were left in place it would place an emphasis on working around what's already in place as opposed to having that sense of freedom to restructure as we agreed would be beneficial. I didn't want existing structure to hamper "creativity" or muddy up  the waters by changing the thinking from "What would be fun/beneficial/functional" to "what needs to be done to alter the existing documents".

In my line of thinking, anything that already was in place that we agreed upon could simply be re-added into the new document(s) as it would take very little time to do so.

Yea pretty much summarizes the reasons for starting from scratch. Though if these issues can be side-stepped sans dismantling I am open to such.

By repealing everything and starting from scratch, you are limiting the opportunity to retain elements of the old system that may be desirable, and there are things which I believe are worth keeping. This is doubly frustrating when a lot of what you seem to want is what we already have, so it can feel like it's not the system itself that's the problem, but that it's someone else's version of the system, and you need to replace it with a near identical one of your own.

This is a fair point, there may be aspects of the old system which should be maintained through transition (embassies, military, infrastructure). Which aspects are most important to you to keep? Honestly I consider the old system to be our system, which I aim to replace with an alternate collectively devised system. I'd rather such a new system were not created piecemeal via amendments but be birthed as a whole entity by our creative will. I am willing to table outright dissolution should we have your aid in construction, I want the new structure to inherently give each element of interaction (i.e. GP, RP, Sillyness, Legislation, etc.) within the region a legal right to being and avenue of expression.

It's not the intention of those "across the aisle" that I seek to impugn, rather the wisdom of dismantling without having anything to replace the current system.

At the very least, the current system of government should be retained until the successful conclusion of the convention, and the implementation of a new system.

When you're looking for a new house, you don't become homeless in the interim.

You know, I quite like your aptitude for metaphor sir. I will say I am willing to hold a convention while holding the current government intact until the new constitution is hammered out by the collective. Honestly my goal is accomplished in the mass of people willing to admit what has been going on isn't working for the best. Those who had left poked back in for a minute. We're getting honest criticism from new folks. All of this for me is a good start.

I think this is a good idea.

Thank you  

[Utopia Socialist Alliance]

    

Well, I've played for over a year now and 3 of my friends are on here as well, 1 a nation in Taijitu and 2 others in the NWP. We've discussed leaving our regions and starting our own, this decision to begin proceedings to disband Taijitu has brought me to the decision to begin building my own region, a region not held to the chains and bonds of the WA, a region where the nations answer for themselves. I will be withdrawing my membership in the WA and withdrawing any and all WA endorsements.

[Sovereign Dixie]

   

Well, I've played for over a year now and 3 of my friends are on here as well, 1 a nation in Taijitu and 2 others in the NWP. We've discussed leaving our regions and starting our own, this decision to begin proceedings to disband Taijitu has brought me to the decision to begin building my own region, a region not held to the chains and bonds of the WA, a region where the nations answer for themselves. I will be withdrawing my membership in the WA and withdrawing any and all WA endorsements.

This doesn't have anything to do with disbanding Taijitu, or the WA. In  fact, WA membership is always optional in this region.

[Wast]

From what I am reading, the proposal has changed somewhat. Are we going to keep the government intact while the Convention is ongoing? I imagine the proposal can be worded so that the current government expires automatically and the result of the Convention will replace it.

[Gulliver]

It's not the intention of those "across the aisle" that I seek to impugn, rather the wisdom of dismantling without having anything to replace the current system.

At the very least, the current system of government should be retained until the successful conclusion of the convention, and the implementation of a new system.

When you're looking for a new house, you don't become homeless in the interim.

You know, I quite like your aptitude for metaphor sir. I will say I am willing to hold a convention while holding the current government intact until the new constitution is hammered out by the collective. Honestly my goal is accomplished in the mass of people willing to admit what has been going on isn't working for the best. Those who had left poked back in for a minute. We're getting honest criticism from new folks. All of this for me is a good start.

I'd be perfectly happy with a convention or similar, so long as our government does not lapse until the newly decided upon set up is voted in.

[Sovereign Dixie]

It's not the intention of those "across the aisle" that I seek to impugn, rather the wisdom of dismantling without having anything to replace the current system.

At the very least, the current system of government should be retained until the successful conclusion of the convention, and the implementation of a new system.

When you're looking for a new house, you don't become homeless in the interim.

You know, I quite like your aptitude for metaphor sir. I will say I am willing to hold a convention while holding the current government intact until the new constitution is hammered out by the collective. Honestly my goal is accomplished in the mass of people willing to admit what has been going on isn't working for the best. Those who had left poked back in for a minute. We're getting honest criticism from new folks. All of this for me is a good start.

I'd be perfectly happy with a convention or similar, so long as our government does not lapse until the newly decided upon set up is voted in.

I still do not know why it matters so damn much? I don't say that to be confrontational, I just legitimately don't get it.

[Gulliver]

I still do not know why it matters so damn much? I don't say that to be confrontational, I just legitimately don't get it.

Because it's creating political uncertainty and limbo that doesn't make it any easier to hold a constitutional convention. If anything, it makes it harder since there's no institutions or offices who clearly have the authority to organize that discussion like the Ecclesia and Citizen-Initiator do now. As noted before, it could also be harmful to our treaty obligations. All in all, the risks aren't huge, as you say, but they're greater than zero and not necessary to take when we can easily formulate and enact a replacement system without taking them.

[Sovereign Dixie]

As this proposal comes to a vote, I thought I would take a bit to, I guess, offer a "closing argument" of sorts as well as a bit of personal commentary.

   When I came back to Taijitu a few weeks ago, I had every intent to stay out of politics and play with my toys in the RP corner. I had grown sick of politics, tired of the stress, tired of.. tired of people raging over their damned pixels. Tired of people taking a damned -game- far too seriously and applying RL morals to a sodding browser game and taking a moral high horse which was at best tenuous and at worst, laughable.

   I have never been a legislative genius. For those who do not know me every well, I'm one of those "big picture" types. I see the forest, and seldom the trees. This has been both a blessing and curse to me both here and elsewhere. I was more than reticent to charge headlong into a situation that I knew would not be my element.

  And then I stood back and looked around. While it has been said that this is not the worst off the region has ever been, to me it is. I will tell you why. Even when this region was dead, even back in 2010 when I got to feeling nostalgic and popped onto the forums to find people talking about relegating the forums to being an archive.. it was not this bad. Because even then, the region may have been all but dead but at least the spirit of the region was intact. I can not say as much now.

 While I do not really consider myself to be a "leader" of this charge, I fully endorse it. I wholeheartedly feel that it is what this region needs whether it is the most popular idea or not. Make no mistake, I don't think a change of government will magically cure all of our problems. But hey, its a start. It's gotten some of us to open up, to begin constructive dialogue, which is more than I seen happening before.

  Taijitu has always been a region full of RP'ers and at the same time, full of those who enjoyed the Gameplay aspect. I have done a good measure of both over the years. This whole mindset that the two are somehow mutually exclusive is both asinine and repugnant to me. If anyone would try to say that this proposal has anything to do with this ludicrous debate they would be flat out wrong and from where I sit, merely looking to cause trouble.

  I've heard a lot of talk about how the current "Revolutionary" government worked well. And while I would not seek to mock the efforts of those who put so much time into the effort I would say that I have seen little evidence to this fact besides the quotation of nation population within the region. This doesn't prove that a governmental system works. This proves that there was an influx of new players into the region and that we actually put forth effort to recruit them. We have had population upswings over many various governmental systems. Correlation does not prove causation.

  Can anyone here tell me, right now, what this governmental system has accomplished besides create a legislative body with very little of consequence to do? Indeed, what is there to be done? A new member joins the forums, becomes a citizen and joins the Ecclesia. Then what, eh? CL maybe? Have fun with that. It's basically the same thing as the old Minister of the Community position. Remember that? It was the one that almost no one wanted. Citizen Delegate maybe? Great! Supposedly in charge of foreign policy, and yet pretty much every aspect has to be approved by the Ecclesia. So what's the point? What is there to keep the ambitious member here and engaged? I don't see anything. I can't help but feel that if this current system was so great that more of those recruited during the golden age of the "Glorious Revolution" would still be here. I can tell you now. If I were a new player in NS and came here.. I would walk away from this current system without a second thought and dismiss it as absolutely boring as hell. There is just nothing compelling or rewarding here right now.

  Now, to be fair there are elements of the current system that I like. I've always been a fan of simplicity and small government. I have to say, this certainly meets both criteria. But, perhaps... maybe it went just a bit overboard?

  To be clear. I (nor any other member of the Centre Party) am not advocating removing anyone's freedom of speech, anyone's ability to participate, or anything of the sort. We are advocating a multi tiered centrist government with actual checks and balances. Crazy, huh?

  It is my desire that this proposal pass. That we completely remove ourselves from this era and come together to forge a new path. A path that is well grounded and built upon a structure of rebuilt trust and friendship. You know, the way it used to be. The way it should be. You other old farts out there know what I mean. It's why you're still here. For many of us some of the best memories of our lives are from this place. Can we honestly say that we have been good stewards and passed along the opportunity for new players to have the same experience? In my opinion, we have not. I say we deliberately, being fully aware of my own sins.

 Taijitu.. our very symbol.. evokes balance. We have lost ours. So I put forth this honest desire that it be restored. That raider and defender, RP and GP, Left and Right, can have a region that we can call home, that we can have a region where we feel welcome and valued.

[Sovereign Dixie]

I still do not know why it matters so damn much? I don't say that to be confrontational, I just legitimately don't get it.

Because it's creating political uncertainty and limbo that doesn't make it any easier to hold a constitutional convention. If anything, it makes it harder since there's no institutions or offices who clearly have the authority to organize that discussion like the Ecclesia and Citizen-Initiator do now. As noted before, it could also be harmful to our treaty obligations. All in all, the risks aren't huge, as you say, but they're greater than zero and not necessary to take when we can easily formulate and enact a replacement system without taking them.

Well, when it comes to treaty obligations, Zarandai said, we're in an empty castle. Like, If one of our treaty partners is so fucked that they need our current shambles of a military to actually do something then they've got far worse problems. Sorting out or own issues should come first.

[AwesomeSaucer]

Oh God, we're relying on nostalgia now to get where we need to be?!

Also, that is not the CP's official stance.  While opinions differ between members, our official stance is simply implementing done form of a guild system, in one way or another.

I realize I'm going against all you're saying in that post, SD, but I need to clarify that for other members.

[Khem]

Oh God, we're relying on nostalgia now to get where we need to be?!

Also, that is not the CP's official stance.  While opinions differ between members, our official stance is simply implementing done form of a guild system, in one way or another.

I realize I'm going against all you're saying in that post, SD, but I need to clarify that for other members.

I back the below stance.

To be clear. I (nor any other member of the Centre Party) am not advocating removing anyone's freedom of speech, anyone's ability to participate, or anything of the sort. We are advocating a multi tiered centrist government with actual checks and balances. Crazy, huh?

[Of The US]

Oh God, we're relying on nostalgia now to get where we need to be?!

Also, that is not the CP's official stance.  While opinions differ between members, our official stance is simply implementing done form of a guild system, in one way or another.

I realize I'm going against all you're saying in that post, SD, but I need to clarify that for other members.

We're relying on the one thing that will work, the one thing that has worked, the fact that everyone here has been, and(mostly) will still be friends at the end of this. We've been exclusionary, and we've been inclusive, at one point almost all of the old guard here has been disliked by the rest of us for some reason, we don't come back here because of government, we come back here because we're all friends. The point I tried making before this whole "Glorious Revolution" was that Taijitu should be a community and branch out of just Nationstates, I still believe that to be true. Every argument that we've ever had has been over some imagined slight in NS, and while we all continue in it, we've recently lost several members because of it. The government type doesn't matter, in your case you are horribly wrong about the Centre Party. What does matter is juts getting something done.

[AwesomeSaucer]

I back the below stance.

To be clear. I (nor any other member of the Centre Party) am not advocating removing anyone's freedom of speech, anyone's ability to participate, or anything of the sort. We are advocating a multi tiered centrist government with actual checks and balances. Crazy, huh?

That still works with the CP's current stance.  I just wanted to make it clear that that specific model is not the only model.

We're relying on the one thing that will work, the one thing that has worked, the fact that everyone here has been, and(mostly) will still be friends at the end of this. We've been exclusionary, and we've been inclusive, at one point almost all of the old guard here has been disliked by the rest of us for some reason, we don't come back here because of government, we come back here because we're all friends. The point I tried making before this whole "Glorious Revolution" was that Taijitu should be a community and branch out of just Nationstates, I still believe that to be true. Every argument that we've ever had has been over some imagined slight in NS, and while we all continue in it, we've recently lost several members because of it. The government type doesn't matter, in your case you are horribly wrong about the Centre Party. What does matter is juts getting something done.

I think we agree on a lot of things, especially how community should be the #1 focus of Taijitu.  I believe you and I to be working together on many issues. 

[Khem]

From what I am reading, the proposal has changed somewhat. Are we going to keep the government intact while the Convention is ongoing? I imagine the proposal can be worded so that the current government expires automatically and the result of the Convention will replace it.

This is a sensible compromise.

[Of The US]

So, uhh what in the actual fuck is this guild thing?