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Author Topic: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]  (Read 23040 times)

Offline Khem

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 06:08:18 PM »
Representative democracy seems to suggest that the legislature is a group of elected representatives.

Is that indeed what you meant? Or do you mean elected executive leaders, much like we currently have, but with a little more power?
Elected representatives indeed is what I mean. Mind this could be the form of a Senate of Reps sitting above a Congress of Citizens.

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Offline Sovereign Dixie

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 07:35:23 PM »
Representative democracy seems to suggest that the legislature is a group of elected representatives.

Is that indeed what you meant? Or do you mean elected executive leaders, much like we currently have, but with a little more power?

Closer to the latter. So far as any of us have discussed the legislative body will remain basically as it is in terms of open participation.


Offline AwesomeSaucer

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2015, 07:44:23 PM »
I will leave if Taijitu turns into a representative democracy.  We don't want to be like every other region in NS, failing at that.

The guild/committee system is our best option for a great compromise to make everyone happy.  If we want a bit more representative elements in the system as well, we could have each member of a committee's vote for a bill relating to the committee count slightly more.

And for Khem's idea of giving Taijitu a system of check democracy with the Senate being tiered, it won't work for such a small community.  There won't be enough people to fill all positions.
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Offline Sovereign Dixie

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 07:59:52 PM »

And for Khem's idea of giving Taijitu a system of check democracy with the Senate being tiered, it won't work for such a small community.  There won't be enough people to fill all positions.

Eh, don't worry about that. That's a problem we've dealt with in the past and are used to overcoming either by adaptation in a dynamic governmental scheme or by gradually increasing numbers. In other words... we're used to it. *shrugs*


Offline Khem

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 08:35:54 PM »
The guild/committee system is our best option for a great compromise to make everyone happy.  If we want a bit more representative elements in the system as well, we could have each member of a committee's vote for a bill relating to the committee count slightly more.
I would prefer this kind of system but worry about how complex it would become without a tiered legislature, allowing for representatives of each guild (with such a group named for average citizens).

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Offline AwesomeSaucer

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2015, 08:57:30 PM »
The guild/committee system is our best option for a great compromise to make everyone happy.  If we want a bit more representative elements in the system as well, we could have each member of a committee's vote for a bill relating to the committee count slightly more.
I would prefer this kind of system but worry about how complex it would become without a tiered legislature, allowing for representatives of each guild (with such a group named for average citizens).
Personally, I would think things would be a lot simpler if we didn't have a tiered system for each committee.  Perhaps we could give some degree of autonomy to each committee to allow them to decide what's best (and to find out what system works best), but my personal belief is that we are not a corporate ladder, and I don't think we should become one.
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Offline Prydania

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2015, 10:39:20 PM »
I disagree, also, with the notion of policy disagreements being the root cause of discord which we should preferentially address.
Take it from someone who has talked with people who exist outside of your "sphere" here. They feel like the current system does not work for them.
Is the current system the root of it all? No, but many feel it's limiting. Despite its egalitarian nature.

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Unless we become a totalitarian dictatorship, we will always have policy disagreements. If we want to avoid the kind of flamewars we've seen recently we need to change something else, I think.
Well then what do you propose? Legislation won't deal with the problems not related to the current system. So if you'd like to deal with those issues, and I think everyone would like to, then it would need to be through some other means.
Which either means getting together to talk it over OR just banning anyone who you disagree with re: those deeper issues. Which would be just the worst, given the origin of this region.

I will leave if Taijitu turns into a representative democracy.  We don't want to be like every other region in NS, failing at that.
That would be unfortunate :(
At the same time? We shouldn't hold the region hostage to the whims of a few members. Doing that is what caused so much stress here in the first place.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 10:49:56 PM by Prydania »

Offline Prydania

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2015, 10:48:06 PM »
n/m
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 11:04:11 PM by Prydania »

Offline Sovereign Dixie

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2015, 11:15:34 PM »
1. An improvement act that dissolves the thing it claims to improve?
It's called sarcasm.

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2. I really don't think it's the institutions that are to blame for our level of argument. It's our behavior as individuals.
No reason not to change both.

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3. The Ecclesia is just the collection of citizens. What is the meaningful difference between the Ecclesia and a constitutional convention? The only difference I can see is the minor limitations on its own power the Ecclesia adopted with the Constitution. Why do we need those powers?
For one thing. Why abide by the constitution that we plan to be rid of? For another, doing it this way requires fewer votes to pass.

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4. The specification of which laws are to be repealed and which are to be kept is extremely ambiguous. What is the status of the Militia Act?
That is intentional. Also, right now the militia is the last damn thing on our minds. Issues at home are more important to the regions interest right now than being party to  the military agendas of others.

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5. Why is the Revolutionary Calendar called out individually, where no other law is?
It was fucking stupid.

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6. Why is this being moved straight to a vote without any time for debate?
Simple. Less time debating means less chance that our legislation gets watered down and bastardized.



Offline Gulliver

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2015, 12:15:09 AM »
In my experience throughout NS, representative legislatures have never been in anyway inherently superior to direct ones, and more often than not put up an extra barrier to ordinary members getting discussions about whatever's on their mind going.

I think the dysfunction we're currently seeing is not with the legislature, which has never had any trouble passing new laws when they were necessary, but with the executive. We've had an explosion of various directly elected officers, and I think it's splintered the government somewhat to its detriment. A more effective improvement would be to alter the law to consolidate some of them under the auspices of a single one who can appoint committees or something of the sort.

Offline AwesomeSaucer

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2015, 12:31:27 AM »
Google Doc is up (commenting is enabled for now, editing will be shortly)!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PUJtxOwUZx_2CI2vqoMC1eMVdtL169W7iaN-ky8Qato/edit?usp=sharing

Our constitutional convention will take place here, and in a forum post located here.
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Offline Sovereign Dixie

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2015, 12:43:27 AM »
Google Doc is up (commenting is enabled for now, editing will be shortly)!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PUJtxOwUZx_2CI2vqoMC1eMVdtL169W7iaN-ky8Qato/edit?usp=sharing

Our constitutional convention will take place here, and in a forum post located here.

You're jumping the gun by a long shot here. We haven't even voted on this yet.


Offline Prydania

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2015, 12:50:19 AM »
In my experience throughout NS, representative legislatures have never been in anyway inherently superior to direct ones, and more often than not put up an extra barrier to ordinary members getting discussions about whatever's on their mind going. I think the dysfunction we're currently seeing is not with the legislature, which has never had any trouble passing new laws when they were necessary, but with the executive.
Except our region was at its peak under a representative democratic government.
As for the current system not putting up barriers? Many people feel differently. And that's led, in part, to the dysfunction we're seeing.

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We've had an explosion of various directly elected officers, and I think it's splintered the government somewhat to its detriment. A more effective improvement would be to alter the law to consolidate some of them under the auspices of a single one who can appoint committees or something of the sort.
So basically a strong, centralised executive? :)

Which is what I plan to propose should we have a constitutional convention. Only that way would free the shackles from this quagmire of legislative supremacy that has left the region without direction and has promoted a culture of, well, assumed victory.
That's ultimately the problem with the Glorious Revolution. Utopia is a wonderful goal to strive for. Until you actually achieve it.

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2015, 02:25:33 AM »
I disagree, also, with the notion of policy disagreements being the root cause of discord which we should preferentially address.
Take it from someone who has talked with people who exist outside of your "sphere" here. They feel like the current system does not work for them.
Is the current system the root of it all? No, but many feel it's limiting. Despite its egalitarian nature.
This is starting to feel like "some people say". I realize that some may be reticent to stand by their views, but I think that in a democracy, you kind of have to.
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Unless we become a totalitarian dictatorship, we will always have policy disagreements. If we want to avoid the kind of flamewars we've seen recently we need to change something else, I think.
Well then what do you propose? Legislation won't deal with the problems not related to the current system. So if you'd like to deal with those issues, and I think everyone would like to, then it would need to be through some other means.
Which either means getting together to talk it over OR just banning anyone who you disagree with re: those deeper issues. Which would be just the worst, given the origin of this region.
Yes, I think we need to talk those out. I just don't see how this legislation would remove those problems, unless one 'side' folds up and leaves over this passing... until the next factionalization.
I will leave if Taijitu turns into a representative democracy.  We don't want to be like every other region in NS, failing at that.
That would be unfortunate :(
At the same time? We shouldn't hold the region hostage to the whims of a few members. Doing that is what caused so much stress here in the first place.
... How so?
In my experience throughout NS, representative legislatures have never been in anyway inherently superior to direct ones, and more often than not put up an extra barrier to ordinary members getting discussions about whatever's on their mind going. I think the dysfunction we're currently seeing is not with the legislature, which has never had any trouble passing new laws when they were necessary, but with the executive.
Except our region was at its peak under a representative democratic government.
The Senate of 2007 was more like the Ecclesia of 2015 than the elected Senate of 2011-2013: Any Taijituan could join it and vote on legislation.
As for the current system not putting up barriers? Many people feel differently. And that's led, in part, to the dysfunction we're seeing.
I really don't think "some people say" is at all a strong argument regarding facts.
Quote
We've had an explosion of various directly elected officers, and I think it's splintered the government somewhat to its detriment. A more effective improvement would be to alter the law to consolidate some of them under the auspices of a single one who can appoint committees or something of the sort.
So basically a strong, centralised executive? :)

Which is what I plan to propose should we have a constitutional convention. Only that way would free the shackles from this quagmire of legislative supremacy that has left the region without direction and has promoted a culture of, well, assumed victory.
What is this "quagmire of legislative supremacy" of which you speak? And what would make a new system immune from assumed victory?
That's ultimately the problem with the Glorious Revolution. Utopia is a wonderful goal to strive for. Until you actually achieve it.
Sounds nice but I don't see what it actually means.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 02:30:15 AM by Eluvatar »
                                 
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2015, 02:26:27 AM »
Quote from: Prydania
Except our region was at its peak under a representative democratic government.
This is simply not true. Our region was at its peak under our initial, directly democratic Senate.

Quote from: Sovereign Dixie
That is intentional. Also, right now the militia is the last damn thing on our minds. Issues at home are more important to the regions interest right now than being party to  the military agendas of others.
The militia was commanded by and composed entirely of Taijituan citizens, not foreign agents. This sort of sentiment, that there's no place in Taijitu for people who participate in military GP, that they are somehow disloyal, is exactly what drove Myroria and Funkadelia away over months, and is now driving me away.