Redefining "Observer" status

[Aquatoria]

ooc: Looks like to me this IPO is becoming another League of Nations. Built with good intentions, but has failed to live up to those intentions. If this one fails then maybe the next one will work.

[Pachamama]

ooc : To be honest I think there are people here who want to prove that such organizations do not work and they will try everything to drive home their point.
They don't want peace and they don't want war. They just want us to fail. It is - I believe- called a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Or I am the only one who saw that he ignored any offer at a solution?

[Xyrael]

ooc: i'm not trying to ruin this organization, i'm trying to make people realize that you can't just sit back, do nothing, and watch peace flourish. It doesn't work like that. But we aren't going about in any meaningful way to promote peace, we aren't promoting trade, reconstruction, higher education, the only thing worth doing atm is the center for disease, and there's 2 chairmen/women on that committee, making me further skeptical. I'm also trying to make sure nations remain nations and not some sort of member of international union.

[Pachamama]

ooc Uhm i wasn't referring to you with the ooc statement. My In Play character however sees things differently trough his eyes. So he will keep an eye on you.

Also for me he was going something like this.
"I want the red car"

"Sure yiu can have it"

"If you don't give me the red car you are an idiot"

"I told you you can have the red car."

"Asshole. i knew you wouldn't give me the red car. You idiot"

It was a bit too obvious he just wanted to crash the party. At least from my point of view. May be a misinterpretation.

[Delfos]

ooc: you're already driving all conclusions together saying we are this and that and we don't allow their voice or whatever. As far as i know, this organization is TOO FREE for the sake of it. People can do whatever they want, and Loyan has prooven that. Yes, we made several conclusions that all parties to be accepted and they were ignored for a political arguing that cannot be applied in an organization of nations. This didn't fail, this isn't failing, there are just people with FREEDOM OF SPEECH that say we are already broken apart, without no authority on the issue. Don't you see you have the freedom you are asking already?

ic: Unless the delegates from the nation of Rabarac finally come up with a good plan to redefine "Observer" status, the administration sees no point to continue arguing, since all problems have been exposed, and now people are just flaming problems that have nothing to do with this issue.
Don't try to make this organization look fool, you already have what you are asking for, we gave you options. Make an effective plan to redefine the status, leave, or become a full member of the organization. Continuing arguing in this matter isn't going to change the status because the proposal you offered isn't good enough. Make something better.
And we can't fully understand why you want to participate in the debates as Observer, and not as a Member, so i would say, the best thing you can do is to apply as a member.
Xyraeli Delegate, this isn't your home country, we are part of an organization of nations for the cooperation to world-peace. Trying to create problems nonexistent in this organization isn't going to solve anything. I already addressed that, if you wish our organization to follow a different path, apply a project for the 15th of November Administration. I don't see another way to make us follow your desired path.

[Cantr]

I note that the Pachamaman delegate has already assumed that Rabarac was responding to his comments as opposed to the comments of others.  I don't believe Rabarac wants anymore than what you have proposed.  And Rabarac has a very good reason for remaining outside this organization; they as a people don't believe we are doing anything for human rights or world peace and don't want their money drained off into the bureaucratic processes involved in executing these.
Concerning your outrage about Winter Shield; once war broke out, it was proposed that we send Winter Shield to support Canada; this motion was defeated by a vast majority under the reasoning that the objective of the peace force; peace, had already been lost, and sending more soldiers couldn't possibly restore it.

[Rabarac]

OOC:  Guys, guys, calm down, I'm not doing this to live out my own political ideology on these boards.  There are more twists to this story coming along shortly.  On a side note, seeing as Brahms has already left, continuing to make demands of him seems kind of silly to me.  However, if he were still here he would point out that he did in fact propose that he be allowed to write a resolution defining observer status better if it would actually get before the body of the IPO, since, as an observer, he has no capacity to put it up for a vote, or submit it as a possible administrative project himself.  In response, Delfos came out and said "Join us or go home," and didn't comment on Brahms' proposition to write a resolution.

Pachamama has absolutely no authority to tell Rabarac that he can speak now; Loyan, as Administrator, said he couldn't, and until an Administrator, or a general vote, changes that, that is how it stands, which is why Rabarac has refrained from commenting on all the other issues.  I didn't think this would be a testy issue at all, I just wanted to post in the other threads, but I'm definitely going to have fun with it now that it is!

[Pachamama]

Actually I have that authority to ask you a question and you can talk to me. This is not a military unit.
The chairman is not our commander. If I want to talk to you or ask you something I can do that.
And I will try and define how this organization goes about it's business when it is my turn.
But what this organization never will be is a place were everyone just waltzes in and make demands.
I don't accept people who join a club and say. "I wanna join your club but I will do whatever I want."
This organization will have rules. And if you think it dictatorial that anyone should follow those rules then be in for the hot seat.
If you don't want rules then move to a  Negasphere. But don't complain if your bones turn to flowers and your brain suddenly stops working above + 20°C.
The demands you made in the end were ridiculous and could only lead to what has happened. if any representative of me would act like that I would shoot him myself.
Also I am irked by your denial of what I said in your favor.
You only acted upon negative statements.

EDIT. As a summary I have the feeling that you actively were working towards this outcome.

[Cantr]

Pacha, he asked to be allowed to participate in discussions without being part of the IPO.  He didn't want to vote, or be admin, or anything like that, he just wanted to let his voice be heard, on issues that matter (as opposed to this, which only matters because if it goes through it will allow Rabarac to matter).  Is that a sin?

[Pachamama]

i tried to assist him in this which he generously ignored.
If what you say was really what he wanted he would have taken the chance to work with me and Xyrael on his case.
he had TWO supporters.
He has clearly shown that he is unwilling to compromise, unwilling to take up an offer for help and unwilling to be flexible.
Not the best traits for a diplomat.
May they should send a real diplomat next time? might get them better results.
So what he wanted was to make demand in the hope that he would be rebutted. And as that didn't work, because he suddenly got support from me and Xyrael he ignored us and walked out. He did not even take up my offer to talk. And the reason he gave for this shows that he is unwilling to take even the risk of speaking his mind when offered the chance to do so.
There is a wordplay for this but unfortunately it only works in German. It would get lost in translation.

[Pachamama]

Okay back to In Play.
Delegate Yar turned towards the assembly.
"Well that didn't go to well. I say this organization needs guidelines and rules people can read and understand before the come up here. Up to now we are hanging in the Air. I would like to write up a proposal. And.."
he turned to wards the Xyraeli delegate" ..as you are part of this organization I ask for your assistance. You are a reasonable man with a different point of view. Maybe together we can produce something that will help us in the future.If you can so well point out our shortcomings maybe you can help us overcome them as well. I ask the assembly to give us a week of time to prepare this proposal before we present it to you for review."

[Delfos]

In response, Delfos came out and said "Join us or go home," and didn't comment on Brahms' proposition to write a resolution.

You must be blind then.

to the lack of a good resolution i said:

But you have a choice, member, observer or none of above. If you wish so much to participate, why don't you become a member?
I see what you want, but I yet do not see an effective way to propose a bill.

the first line I've put int his topic was:

The current administration is interested in a efficient proposal to redefine the status of External Observers.

my final post was:

ic: Unless the delegates from the nation of Rabarac finally come up with a good plan to redefine "Observer" status, the administration sees no point to continue arguing, since all problems have been exposed, and now people are just flaming problems that have nothing to do with this issue.
Don't try to make this organization look fool, you already have what you are asking for, we gave you options. Make an effective plan to redefine the status, leave, or become a full member of the organization. Continuing arguing in this matter isn't going to change the status because the proposal you offered isn't good enough. Make something better.
And we can't fully understand why you want to participate in the debates as Observer, and not as a Member, so i would say, the best thing you can do is to apply as a member.

I said exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

[Rabarac]

Actually I have that authority to ask you a question and you can talk to me. This is not a military unit.

Well, duh, I can talk to you, I can address any nation I wish, but under the current rulings, observer nations cannot address the general IPO body regarding proposed resolutions that will affect them; they are to sit in silence as trade regulations and other such matters are decided.  I never tried to be able to address individual nations, I was asking the ability to deliberate like the other delegations, just not vote.

But what this organization never will be is a place were everyone just waltzes in and make demands.
I don't accept people who join a club and say. "I wanna join your club but I will do whatever I want."
This organization will have rules. And if you think it dictatorial that anyone should follow those rules then be in for the hot seat.
...
The demands you made in the end were ridiculous and could only lead to what has happened. if any representative of me would act like that I would shoot him myself.
Also I am irked by your denial of what I said in your favor.
You only acted upon negative statements.

I never claimed to make any demands; I wanted the ability to speak Rabarac's concerns to the body of the IPO, that is all.  Just for the record, I am asking for the observer status of the UN observer nations; if that is anarchy and chaos to you then your argument holds up, if not, I ask nothing.  I haven't posted in any IPO thread since I was told not to by Loyan, I was obeying the rules that you claim I have such disregard for.  I was petitioning for that to be officially changed, that is all.  Instead everyone questions why I don't just be a member.  Uh, RP reasons, maybe?!?  I'm playing a libertarian Republic which doesn't think too highly of supranational organizations; if I, as a player, wanted to bring it down from the inside, I would be a member already and vote accordingly!

the proposal you offered isn't good enough. Make something better.

I didn't make a proposal, I offered an argument.  A proposal would go something like this;

The IPO "Observer Status" Resolution:

The Body of the IPO,

Realizing the efforts of past administrations to reduce possibly chaotic deliberations,
Simultaneously realizing the effect of IPO decisions on nations not interested in joining the organization,
Recognizing the rights of these non-member nations to have some say in what will be affecting them, as an organization of peace cannot operate in its own interest alone,

Does hereby

Define "observer" as a nation who is not a member but will nevertheless have a delegation in the general assembly,
Extends to said "observer" nations' delegates the privilege of addressing the IPO body during deliberations,
Withholds the right of said delegates the privilege and honor of voting, administrating, or appointing members to ruling councils in IPO organizations,
Affirms the necessary step of a confirmation vote of the IPO body in order to admit a new Observer nation, (regardless of whether or not this is the case for membership applicants)

In General Assembly of the International Peace Organization, November, 2007 (or whatever year it's supposed to be).

That would be the resolution, Delfos, but as you said, you saw no way for this to be proposed, as things are done by 'Administrative projects' in the IPO anyway, and not by resolutions from members.

No, Delfos, you didn't address IC Brahms' proposition to write a resolution that would then be proposed by a full member.  Frankly, that wouldn't happen anyway, since the only thing that happens in the IPO is the current Administrative projects, unless I am misunderstanding the system.  If the administration is interested, then make it an 'administrative project', propose the miniscule change I proposed, and let the body vote on it, for there is no other way that things happen in the IPO.

The only proposed change I made was that I be allowed to post in the topics, nothing more, nothing less, and that is what you call 'not good enough.'  If that is the case, then I must be a member to influence treaties, laws, and mandates that will affect my trade relations with an IPO member, and IPO quickly becomes a self-absorbed, elitist club, disregarding the concerns of nations who do not agree and are not members.  I have told you why Rabarac does not agree with the IPO, concerns which no one has addressed thus far, and that is why I will not be a member (well, well, you'll see).  The question is this; does the IPO believe that nations who are not fully committed to (the IPO's brand of) peace (by being members) have the right to address their concerns in a civil manner before the IPO, or can they be ignored because they don't agree?

[Delfos]

no, anyone can propose anything. As you, if you had the attention, would see, I proposed stuff during Loyan administration, he did the same with mine, anyone can do it, even you by making this topic of discussion as you can see. The Administrator has no power regarding the limits of obligations of each nation. This was already discussed.
You didn't make any good offer, as i said i wouldn't do the dirty work for you, if you wanted something done just proposed to me and i would publish the proposal for the application of the bill. Instead, you just followed Xyraeli lead to degrade the image of our organization without any base of truth, even Cantr said, most of yours and Xyraeli accusations are inapplicable from the moment we failed all proposals regarding aiding PI. As far as i know, the Peace forces are still in New Delfos, and the Canadian freighters are still there too.

[Cantr]

You and Loyan are both part of the IPO.  There's no precedent for non-members proposing anything, and further, he didn't say he wanted to propose anything, he just wanted to talk about proposals other people made.  When he tried to do that, Loyan, the current admin, stopped him.  No one argued that he should be allowed to speak.  Perhaps this is just another case of Loyan using administrative powers he never actually had, but if so, it definitely wasn't addressed the way the DSA's expulsion was.