Debate on Alia's Policies

[Zimmerwald]

What about the power void on the South Continent? The Democratic States were a powerful country for many years, but then PI helped free the southern states. A war that Canada played a major role. After that war, there was a power void about who will succeed the DSA as the power on the continent. The Inglish spend most of their time locked away on their island and will only come out and play when war threatens their allies. CDixie are becoming strong, but not that strong yet. The DSA has lost two wars in a row and has already started a third. So the only nation with any success on the American continent has been the Canadian Empire. So the Canadian Empire is most likely to fill that power void.

Ah, but should it endeavor to fill that power void by taking its neighbors' territory? (OOC: the apostraphe is where it is because my character predicts that you will try to conquer the DSA)  You make it sound as if Canada could fill the power void by default.  If so, then why not?  Why bother taking the territory of States that have just as much legitimacy as yours?  Don't try to wrap your ambitions in shades of "manifest destiny" or any other such self-justifying tactic.  This is imperialism, plain and simple.

Anyway, you never bothered to justify the creation of a secret police.  Why do you need such a police?  Why do you need to cause your citizens so much fear?  The only use that any secret police has, and has ever had throughout history, is to repress and reduce the possibility of dissent.  If this is parliamentary democracy, then I for one am glad that Xyrael doesn't have it!

[St Oz]

Dira Salma Na'hir noticed she was different from many of the people at the conference. Unlike them she was probably the only one who grew up from the dead poverty of St Oz City and even saw her mother and father put to death by Moacians. However after the death of her parents and being a single child she inherited what money they had, she invested this money into some land along the river at 17. At the time she had no clue what she was doing and got other Ozians to tend her land and she got 50% of the crop's profit. At 29 she now had a net value of 200 million Pei, making her the richest woman in divine Ozia. Salma also was the only one in the room with a blank expression, and only one that didn't speak a word of Inglish. She brought with her, her Inglish speaker. As the Ozian woman muttered Ozian, the translator spoke out, "My colleague that tongues the Inglish language here tells me that you think Canada is most powerful through everyone else's defeats. There is a well-known proverb of Ozian Sand-walkers, 'when all tribes in an area have sought zuavka and had no success, what say when your time comes to gather zuavka will you be plentiful?' Though your southern continent is not the great desert of Gaea, I don't believe that such a void is a believable, what you speak of is the victories of war. There are more fronts in society than that of the sword. I know of an Inglish saying, "The Pen is greater than the sword", Well I believe that pen and sword are equals along with leadership, economy, and diplomacy. Even though your military wins over countries, what difference is that to your economy? You pay more for the sword which makes your pen, economy, and diplomacy suffer. While the Inglish still maintain their Economical virtue, Diplomatic friendliness, and stability."

[Aquatoria]

Well, any intelligence agency can be considered secret police, Alia is going to disband the secret police, but let them stay as intelligence agents once the Dysanii thing blows over.

[Zimmerwald]

Actually, any reliable dictionary will give you a definition of secret police similar to this one: "a police force that functions as the enforcement arm of a government's political policies and whose activities, which often include surveillance, intimidation, and physical violence as a means of suppressing dissent, are usually concealed from the public."  The secret police is not an intelligence agency, which is normally concerned with gathering information about threats from other States.  It is entirely an internal body, concerned with the suppression of dissent, and the fact that Alia wants to create one, indeed has created one makes her entire policy discreditable.

[Delfos]

Actually, any reliable dictionary will give you a definition of secret police similar to this one: "a police force that functions as the enforcement arm of a government's political policies and whose activities, which often include surveillance, intimidation, and physical violence as a means of suppressing dissent, are usually concealed from the public."  The secret police is not an intelligence agency, which is normally concerned with gathering information about threats from other States.  It is entirely an internal body, concerned with the suppression of dissent, and the fact that Alia wants to create one, indeed has created one makes her entire policy discreditable.

It's an intelligence agency with the authority for immediate action!

[Zimmerwald]

To do what?  Imprison, torture, coerce citizens, prevent them from speaking and writing, from forming political parties and groups, or supporting those that already exist but are in opposition.  That is the only function that a secret police can have; history has proved this, and it is embedded in the very definition of the term!

[Delfos]

I've a question, isn't this supposed to be RP based? Myroria comes with 40k and other shit, you come with secret police history when there's few cases in Taijitu, are we basing this off RP?

ic: Those actions guarantee our security, and reinforce the power of the Federation. Anything a Federation citizen wants, to feel safe in his comfy home, with his family.

[Bara]

OOC: Whats wrong with 40k?

[Delfos]

Isn't exactly good matter for an In Character Debate on someone's policies.

[Bara]

yeah, but still. i like 40k...

[Zimmerwald]

OOC: You do know that I-S has secret police (at least he's RPd them in the past), that Xyrael has secret police, and that Ryazania (whose nation is defunct) had secret police, don't you, Delfos?  It's not like they're new.

IC: Oh, and Federation citizens feel safer when their own government is placing them under surveillence, when they can be disappeared at any time for holding an opinion contrary to Alia's, when they might be murdered in the dead of night by a supposedly democratic state?  Apparantly Canadian citizens have a strange mutation that turns the fear response on its head.

A secret police, as I've explained to you earlier and you don't seem to understand, is a totally internal arm of the government.  It does nothing to secure the country from foreign foes, nothing to gather intelligence, nothing, in other words, to ensure national security.  It exists for one purpose and one purpose only; to crush liberty. 

You could argue that suppression of dissent leads to greater national cohesion and power, but that is an extraordinarily weak and easily refuted argument.  Citizens under surveillence are not happy.  They slow down on the job, decreasing GDP.  Morale in the armed forces falls, decreasing fighting effectiveness.  Democratic government becomes a sham, decreasing the political efficacy of citizens, and decreasing their support for government of any sort.

[Delfos]

ooc: Canada, you will have to explain how your secret police idea even came to the debate, and how I should defend it, because I can't find arguments against GC.

GC, yes i know, I think there's others who might have secret police, anyway, their actions aren't widely known, I know nothing about repression of I-S or whoever using their secret police, although I know everything you said, I can't really find more arguments to defeat your points unless banging more into the safty of the citizens, even if their privacy or tax is being raped.
That would be impossible in New Delfos...or maybe not lol...for some time I'm wanting to RP an emergent dictatorship and a sort of anarchy right after, with several groups fighting for power. But that takes too much of my precious time...maybe around Christmas.

ic: It's a risk we can take, I rather them watching my naked back if that makes me feel safe. A true citizen of the Federation must not be ashamed and must have nothing to hide, it's suspicious if he does have something to hide, don't you think so? I'm happy with surveillence, it makes the streets safe, the Federation will prosper in that climate, not the opposite as you suggest.

[Zimmerwald]

OOC: Now you know how I felt arguing in favor of attacking Iran at a debate tournament.  Trust me; there's always a counter-argument.

IC: What exactly are you afraid of?  Afraid big bad commies are coming to get you and your family?  Afraid some random group is going to kidnap your son or daughter?  You couldn't be afraid of other nations, otherwise you'd be advocating for a larger army; anyone advocating for a secret police is in fear of internal enemies, and if Canada's government is so bad that it has spawned dissent, then it deserves to be overthrown.

What you're saying really is that a citizen of the Federation must be a simple cog in the machine of State.  Unfortunately democracy doesn't work like that.  If you want Canada to become a dictatorship, simply come out and say so, rather than hiding behind platitiudes of "safety."

And no, secret police doesn't make the streets safe; that's the job for regular police.  Secret police make the people less safe, because they have to fear their own government.

[Delfos]

I don't fear my government, that's a bad assumption by your part. The Federation isn't a dictatorship, it's a democracy that answers to Alia. Alia is the symbol of the Canadian Federation, together with the currency, National Anthem, Language and Flag they form the equilateral pillars of our nation. If you take away one of our symbols and the unity of the Nation makes no sense. Alia will always be a symbol of Canada, that's unquestionable. The government otherwise is free and democratic, taking care of the Canadian Federal Society. The police is for this society, while the secret police is the shield and sword of the Empress. Long live Alia! (yay!)

[Zimmerwald]

The Federation isn't a dictatorship, it's a democracy that answers to Alia

If the government answers to Alia, then it is not a democracy.  Simple.

OOC: thanks for shooting yourself in the foot.