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Author Topic: Vote in 2008 america.  (Read 17360 times)

Offline Myroria

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #165 on: April 18, 2007, 12:35:49 AM »
It's still 750,000 at least, 1,000,000 at most people dead from inaction. That's not an atrocity?

Secondly, it was to win the war, but since we're Americans, we get the credit for winning even though we lost the least people. If we wanted to show them off to the USSR (Which I don't see why we would want to, we were allies and very few people worried about them at that time), why not show them off on an island instead of deliberately killing thousands of civilians? Is it perhaps because the US is atrocious, but able to hide behind the mask of "great democracy"?

I also find it funny how we objected to making the A-bomb Dome in Hiroshima a UNESCO World Heritage Site. We still can't live up to our moral mistake?
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Offline Marsos

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #166 on: April 18, 2007, 01:11:19 AM »
It's still 750,000 at least, 1,000,000 at most people dead from inaction. That's not an atrocity?

Secondly, it was to win the war, but since we're Americans, we get the credit for winning even though we lost the least people. If we wanted to show them off to the USSR (Which I don't see why we would want to, we were allies and very few people worried about them at that time), why not show them off on an island instead of deliberately killing thousands of civilians? Is it perhaps because the US is atrocious, but able to hide behind the mask of "great democracy"?

I also find it funny how we objected to making the A-bomb Dome in Hiroshima a UNESCO World Heritage Site. We still can't live up to our moral mistake?
No, we apparently can't. But we don't have a monopoly on that. Consider the atrocities committed by Belgium in the Scramble for Africa. They would cut off people's hands to account for ammunition (to make sure soldiers didn't waste ammunition, they had to account for each bullet with a human hand.) in order to not face court martial. But the museum in Belgium about the Congo describes African colonization as a noble effort. But like Talstadt said, this isn't an "I hate America" thread. Let's move on.
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #167 on: April 18, 2007, 01:13:58 AM »
I don't hate America so much as I hate democracy (Well, republic. Direct democracy, while I don't like as much as monarchy, at least is more representative of the population). If America was a direct democracy or monarchy, honestly, I'd find nothing wrong with it. It's just that America pretends to be all good and democratic when it's not.
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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #168 on: April 18, 2007, 01:25:33 AM »
Wait.....wait.......you're the one who bitches about democracy being a tyranny by a majority! How the fuck do you support direct democracies rather than representative republics?
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #169 on: April 18, 2007, 02:03:14 AM »
Because in a direct democracy, everyone votes directly on everything so no one race/gender/class can be superior to everyone else. Yes, it's unavoidable that there's going to be a majority, but in a republic that gets overblown, because the representatives tend to be all of the same type. In a direct democracy there's still those other people that aren't in a republic. For example, take this:

In Republic A, 95% of the people representing are white males, but only 75% of the population is white. This gives the white males a huge advantage. If A was to become a direct democracy, 75% is 75%, not 95%. This way, there's still tyranny by majority, but not so extreme like in Republic A.

But like I said, I prefer monarchy more than democracy, direct or republican.

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Offline Marsos

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #170 on: April 18, 2007, 02:06:46 AM »
Because in a direct democracy, everyone votes directly on everything so no one race/gender/class can be superior to everyone else. Yes, it's unavoidable that there's going to be a majority, but in a republic that gets overblown, because the representatives tend to be all of the same type. In a direct democracy there's still those other people that aren't in a republic. For example, take this:

In Republic A, 95% of the people representing are white males, but only 75% of the population is white. This gives the white males a huge advantage. If A was to become a direct democracy, 75% is 75%, not 95%. This way, there's still tyranny by majority, but not so extreme like in Republic A.

But like I said, I prefer monarchy more than democracy, direct or republican.


What does white males have to do with it? White males have different opinions. Our divisions are political, not racial. You'll find that while 95% of the representatives may be white males, this does not make a dominating party, as white males are not necessarily united on every issue, or even most of them.
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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #171 on: April 18, 2007, 02:07:42 AM »
Can you please tell me how group 'x' gets more representation than group 'y'? I was unaware that one group held more power than others.
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #172 on: April 18, 2007, 06:16:55 AM »
And Soly, about your 'comedian' quip: if you disagree, please give me something I can think about.  Try to reason with me; I'm not that hard-headed you know. :) But when you get down in the mud, don't expect me to follow you.

I did try to give you my point by emphasising the line in your post. I'm just not sure whether you were being serious when you claimed that every terrorist barring one or two are muslims as that simply is not true. If you were, I'd like you to think about that. If you weren't, well, that's an odd spot to change attitudes.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #173 on: April 18, 2007, 06:33:27 AM »
Ok, My last post in this thread is to give two examples of US atrocities: Guantanamo, status: currently going on. Abu Graib: was revealed in 2006 but had probably gone on since the first year of the occupation.

And yes, with great power comes great responsibility. I don't belive the US has respected that responsibility, especially not since that responsibility also encompasses beeing a good example to developing nations in various stages. Something wich a corporate oligarchy never will be. The proud democratic US republic that once was is dead, realise that and you might be able to restore it.
The only thing I find interesting about this election is wether the US will get it's first female or first black president, other than that is' the same as usual one of two of puppets controlled by different companies

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Offline Allama

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #174 on: April 18, 2007, 12:38:59 PM »
Btw, usually, it's the people who are trying to accuse someone else of something who have to prove their point, not the ones defending the point.  Otherwise, I would expect everyone to speak with some form of evidence to back up their stronger statements.

Sweetie, I think you were the one claiming all but one or two terrorists are Muslims.  I didn't see any sources cited there, nor statistics, nor even a scrap of evidence.  Clearly you said this without bothering to research worldwide terrorism in the slightest.  Hence, double standard.

I agree, we should keep this focused on politics, not religion, however, I never said that I believe ALL Muslims to be evil, or dangerous.

Don't worry, no one said you did.

Empire, you find these Israeli "atrocities" (btw, could you please site one such horror as you describe, with names, dates, places, etc.) to be worse than others only because they are committed from a stronger position?  I can hardly believe your claim to be Christian now, since I thought all believers of the Bible believed in an Absolute Truth, which includes calling a spade a spade, and in this instance, a wrong a wrong.  I would never say that an act is much less acceptable when committed by one party than if committed by another.  Might alone does not make right, or wrong, for that matter.  If ANYONE commits what you consider an 'atrocity', I should think you would be horrified.  But when you only consider an act an atrocity after checking who committed it, (in this case, a strong nation like Israel) then I can only think that your political beliefs are strongly affecting your sense of reason.

I highly doubt he intended to downplay the atrocities committed by other nations in any way; Israel was simply the one relevant to our prior discussion.  As a Christian myself, I believe all crimes against humanity to be crimes against God, no matter who perpetrates them, and I'm sure Empire agrees.

One of many examples of the atrocities we mentioned is the Sabra and Shatila massacre of 1982.  On September 16-18 of that year Israeli forces surrounded the area of two Palestinian refugee camps as un-armed civilians were raped and slaughtered in a three-day orgy of vengeance for the assassination of Lebanese leader Bashir Gemayel.  The number of those killed is still in question as evidence has been obscured and justice has been sought in vain by those who survived, but it is estimated in the thousands.

Human rights abuses are still going on there today.  For example, in February of 2001 the U.S. State Department released a report on human rights violations during the previous year, entitled: "Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2000: Occupied Territories".  This report stated the following:

"Israel's overall human rights record in the occupied territories [is] poor....Israeli security forces committed numerous serious human rights abuses during the year....Since the violence began, [September 2000] Israeli security units often used excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators.  Israeli security forces sometimes exceeded their rules of engagement, which provide that live fire is only to be used when the lives of soldiers, police, or civilians are in imminent danger....Israeli security forces abused Palestinians in detention suspected of security offenses....There were numerous credible allegations that police beat persons in detention.  Three Palestinian prisoners died in Israeli custody under ambiguous circumstances during the year.  Prison conditions are poor.  Prolonged detention, limits on due process, and infringements on privacy rights remained problems.  Israeli security forces sometimes impeded the provision of medical assistance to Palestinian civilians.  Israeli security forces destroyed Palestinian-owned agricultural land.  Israeli authorities censored Palestinian publications, placed limits on freedom of assembly, and restricted freedom of movement for Palestinians.”

Please feel free to check my facts.  If you would like more, PM me and I’ll compile a list.

You then found fault with the fact that the US has been involved in some type of armed conflict in almost every decade since WWII:

Also, can you mention any single decade post WW2 where the US hasn't been involved in armed conflict somwhere in the world?

Well, to answer your question first, the 1980s.  Unless you want to count extremely minor police actions somewhere in Africa.  But come on, they have bigger street fights in L.A.  ;D

1981, 1986 - U.S./Libya Conflict
1982-1984 - U.S. Intervention in Lebanon
1983 - U.S. Invasion of Grenada
1985-1986 - Iran-Contra: This is my “favorite” of the 80’s armed conflicts we got involved in.  Members of the U.S. executive branch headed by Ronald Reagan sold armaments to Iran and used the money gained to fund the Contra rebellion against the Sandinista government in Nicaragua, and continued to do so after being strictly forbidden by Congress.  For this one our soldiers didn't actually fight like in others I've mentioned, but we sure as hell got involved.
1987-1988 - “Operation Ernest Will”/The Tanker War
1989 - U.S. Invasion of Panama

Offline Barceleroth

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #175 on: April 18, 2007, 10:05:13 PM »
Allama, like I said, we have bigger street fights in L.A.  :) 

Soly, I think our main problem here is the definition of 'terrorist.'  My idea of a terrorist is a person who is a member of a violent cult who committs suicide bombings through a belief that they are serving their god.  We could just call them assholes, but these are peole who fight under a banner, and supposedly have religious beliefs that are 'responsible' for their actions.  I wouldn't call a guy who robs a bank a terrorist, or a person who blows himself up in a crowd because he's mad at his mother.  It may be a form of terror warfare, but my idea of an actual "terorist," especially in this day and age, is different.  I realize that this is my own definition, and tho everyone I know pretty much agrees with it, you might consider anyone who commits a crime a terrorist, and in that case we would be talking apples and oranges.   



Now, Myro, I have a hard time swallowing the fact that you can stand up and seriously say that you approve of a monarchy over any form of democracy, but your given reasons for this belief are through a hate of a majority dominating the minority...   WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR BRAIN, MAN???  :)  If you think that "the little guy" doesn't get heard in a Democracy, for crying out loud, what do you think'll happen in a monarchy?  There's a reason that monarchies are not alive and well today.

Myro, you said:


When you:

1. Deliberately lie about killing thousands of civilians
2. Don't act when hundreds of thousands of people are killed genocidically

it is.

Not to mention that the bombings were a war crime anyway. One, Japan was basically defeated already. Two, let's assume the Germans developed the bomb and dropped them on semi-important American cities, but later lost the war. Do you have any doubt the Germans that developed the bomb would have been called war criminals and hanged?


So, you think it's an 'atrocity' that the US didn't jump in and save the world during the Rwanda conflict?  I thought everyone was complaining that the US were trying to be the "world's police"????  Do you see the hypocrisy here?  We do something, we get jumped on; we don't do something, and we still get jumped on.  If you think the world hates the US, you have no clue how SICK I am of hearing the rest of the world belly-ache, wine and complain.  What else do you want the US to do, change your diapers??? 

Myro, if you think that the use of the A-bombs were unnecessary, you haven't done a very thorough study on WWII.  Ever hear about Tarawa?  Ever see the film clips of Japanese residents on the island throwing themselves and their childen over cliffs, to escape the "shame" of surrendering?  If Japanese soldiers weren't willing to surrender when all was lost on a God-forsaken tiny sliver of sand out in the middle of the Pacific, what would we have to do to make him surrender his own homeland?  Japanese records show that no one in Japan was contemplating surrender before the use of the A-bombs.  Even after the two nukes were dropped, Japanese war ministers were all for going to the very end.  It was only the Emperor who was unwilling to sacrifice his people's lives so needlessly, and accepted surrender.  It became very clear after the war that the Japanese people were braced to go to the last man, in successive lines of defense, including the remnants of the army, old men and boys, and women and children.  The Japanese people were conditioned to not accept surrender, under any circumstances.  Did you ever see "The Last Samurai"?  That shows some of this mentality among the Japanese.  It also became clear that we saved countless Japanese lives by not invading the islands, because of their own suicidal intentions. 

Furthermore, you can say that Hiroshima was not a military base.  But do you know how long we had been bombing Japanese manufacturing plants, factories, bases, airfields, etc.?  Their ability to wage war had ceased to exist.  Yet they refused to even contemplate surrender.  There was nothing LEFT to bomb in Japan.  Hiroshima was a large economic center of Japan, and therefore, the foremost "military" target.  The same with Nagasaki. 


EDIT: Allama, I am not trying to condone any war crime committed by Israel.  And I do know that Israel has done some pretty horrific things.  However, the only reason I'm providing their defense, is that your reasons for choosing to find fault with Israel over its enemies, who also committed warcrimes, appall me.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 10:31:32 PM by Barceleroth »
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #176 on: April 18, 2007, 10:44:04 PM »
Then your definition of terrorist is extremely narrowed down as the official definition of terrorist is anyone who uses fear to attempt to force others to acchive a specific goal.
As such, there are loads of domestic terrorists in both the US and Europe including organizations all the way from KKK to our swedish "Nationalsocialistisk Front" and "Antifascistisk Aktion" along with various organized criminal organizations and biker gangs.

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Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #177 on: April 19, 2007, 08:03:38 AM »
Like ^ said about terrorism, the top three terrorist "factions" in human history are, in terms of extensive operation:

1) The Roman Catholic Church
2) Western Imperialists
3) The Soviet Union under Stalin.

To say that muslim terrorists are the only terrorists is like saying that your "apples and oranges" are the only foods.
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Offline carraterra

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #178 on: April 19, 2007, 10:47:12 AM »
VOTE POPULIST!

Offline Allama

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #179 on: April 19, 2007, 01:24:14 PM »
Soly, I think our main problem here is the definition of 'terrorist.'  My idea of a terrorist is a person who is a member of a violent cult who committs suicide bombings through a belief that they are serving their god.  We could just call them assholes, but these are peole who fight under a banner, and supposedly have religious beliefs that are 'responsible' for their actions.  I wouldn't call a guy who robs a bank a terrorist, or a person who blows himself up in a crowd because he's mad at his mother.  It may be a form of terror warfare, but my idea of an actual "terorist," especially in this day and age, is different.  I realize that this is my own definition, and tho everyone I know pretty much agrees with it, you might consider anyone who commits a crime a terrorist, and in that case we would be talking apples and oranges.

Hun, "your" definition fits dozens of non-Muslim terrorist groups around the world.  Violent religious and/or political cults kill innocent civilians in sad attempts to prove a point or get attention for the "rightness" of their cause all the time, and a great many of them are Caucasian or Hispanic or Asian, etc.  Again, I am willing to cite examples if you request it.

Oh, and for the record, I don't think all violent criminals are terrorists.  I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find anyone who believes that.

EDIT: Allama, I am not trying to condone any war crime committed by Israel.  And I do know that Israel has done some pretty horrific things.  However, the only reason I'm providing their defense, is that your reasons for choosing to find fault with Israel over its enemies, who also committed warcrimes, appall me.

When did I ever condone what Israel's enemies have done, or say I didn't despise their violent actions as much as those of Israel?  I simply used Israel as an example of how much the U.S. only cares about other countries' human rights violations if we're not allied with them.  I think violence against civilians is unforgivable no matter who perpetrates it.  Kindly do not put words in my mouth.