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Author Topic: Vote in 2008 america.  (Read 17246 times)

Offline Algerianbania

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2007, 04:39:53 PM »
I concur with that statement.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2007, 04:51:51 PM »
Well, as soon as anyone tries to regulate corporations with majority ownership in the US, the CIA manages to "find" something "that poses a threat to american soverignity" and the senate and congress is manipulated to approve a new offencive campaign in "defence of freedom"
Aka. defending the US's "right" to use other peoples's resources and labour without taking responsibility for any local negative effects on neither economy, environment or population.

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Offline Allama

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2007, 05:33:13 PM »
Oh, come on now.  You know as well as I do that America is the best country in the world and we should be able to do whatever we want; might makes right.  If we think we should economically and socially rape another country, so be it.  The United States of America has been chosen as the world's leader and we deserve our rights, damn it!  God bless the US!

[/rampant sarcasm]

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2007, 06:16:41 PM »
Well, as soon as anyone tries to regulate corporations with majority ownership in the US, the CIA manages to "find" something "that poses a threat to american soverignity" and the senate and congress is manipulated to approve a new offencive campaign in "defence of freedom"
Aka. defending the US's "right" to use other peoples's resources and labour without taking responsibility for any local negative effects on neither economy, environment or population.

Which is exactly why change must be effected in the US.  If it's effected anywhere else, the US military and intelligence sectors are the primary counter-revolutionary forces.  Those sectors must be dismanteled in the US if revolution anywhere can succeed.  And they can only be dismantled if the economic system and the state that enforces it are also dismantled.

Quote from: Allama
Oh, come on now.  You know as well as I do that America is the best country in the world and we should be able to do whatever we want; might makes right.  If we think we should economically and socially rape another country, so be it.  The United States of America has been chosen as the world's leader and we deserve our rights, damn it!  God bless the US!

Your satire amuses me.  Also, don't you think it's funny that the Senate gallery has "novus ordo seclorum" etched into its walls, and yet, the motto of the US is "in God we trust"?  I just find that amusing.


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Offline Allama

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2007, 06:30:33 PM »
Your satire amuses me.  Also, don't you think it's funny that the Senate gallery has "novus ordo seclorum" etched into its walls, and yet, the motto of the US is "in God we trust"?  I just find that amusing.

Virgil; fantastic.  Can you imagine the look on the faces of the "Christian right" if they knew what that quote came from?

Speaking of, I find them extremely embarrassing.  Not only as a citizen of the same country, mind, but a member of sort-of the same faith (though hearing what I believe, they would probably deny this).  They make all Christians look like fanatical demagogues with very little sense of what the man they supposedly follow actually taught.  I suppose you could call me a member of the "Christian left", not having been raised as a Christian, finding the faith on my own, and having the opportunity to decide what I believe on my own without being spoon-fed any bullshit.  Not to get us into a debate about religion; I am side-tracking myself.  The point is, the obvious ignorance of a large portion (not all, of course) of the Christian right makes our whole faith, and our whole country, look bad.  So many of us don't agree with anything they advocate, but they've created a huge political lobby and it's hard to get around it sometimes.

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2007, 06:51:48 PM »
We have the same problem with AIPAC.  All the religions have the same problem; their left-wing membership disdains political organizing.


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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2007, 07:03:07 PM »
I'm a bit disappointed to see so many people leaping onto the massive global corporate conspiracy bandwagon.

Firstly, do you really think that the United States government, given its dismal track record of late, could ever pull off anything as complex and intricate as the sorts of conspiracies you seem to be hinting at?

This is not about capitalism, this is simply about power. The United States is powerful, simple as that. Power, and human hubris and stupidity. Were the United States communist, they'd be just as irresponsible in wielding that power for the sake of communism.

And as to getting rid of capitalism, might I remind you what happened the last couple of times we tried to do that, i.e. mass starvation, poverty and no decent economy to speak of? The evidence speaks for itself; the best developed areas of the world, the United States, Europe, Japan and so forth, have what when all is said and considered are free and open markets.

Which of course brings us to another point, that there are plenty of countries with free market economies that aren't rampaging over the world and such. Consider:

Quote from: Economist Economic Freedom Index, 1-5 with 1 being the most free
United States: 1.84
Switzerland: 1.89
Canada: 1.85
Iceland: 1.74
Ireland: 1.58
Luxembourg: 1.60
Sweden: 1.96
Denmark: 1.78

Your argument that capitalism and free markets inevitably results in the behavior displayed by the United States is complete bunk. I return to my original point: power and hubris.

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« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:07:37 PM by Pragmia »

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2007, 07:31:02 PM »
Quote
Firstly, do you really think that the United States government, given its dismal track record of late, could ever pull off anything as complex and intricate as the sorts of conspiracies you seem to be hinting at?
What do you mean, its "dismal track record of late?"  The United States government has over 231 years of a "dismal track record."  There's racial slavery and Indian genocide, then imperialist ventures first in Flordia, then against Mexico, then against Spain, then in the Phillipines, then in Korea and Vietnam, and now in the Middle East.  The "dismal track record" has been virtually continuous.

Furthermore, I fail to see how accurately pointing out the large number of US military bases around the world is a conspiracy theory.  It is a simple fact; the United States has military bases all over the world, in around a hundred countries, in all regions of the globe.  And it is not conspiracy to say that crime increases near an American military base, because it does.  Nor is it conspiracy to say that much of this crime is perpetrated by American servicemen.  Because it is.  The top brass confirm it.

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This is not about capitalism, this is simply about power. The United States is powerful, simple as that. Power, and human hubris and stupidity. Were the United States communist, they'd be just as irresponsible in wielding that power for the sake of communism.
Were the United States communist, the rest of the world would be communist too.  Because communism implies the absense of a state, and the states won't be permanently abolished until there are no states that threaten them.  You want to use the word "socialist."

And you're implying that it is in the nature of Americans to be irresponsible?  Or are you implying that about the powerful?  Because I would agree with you; it is always in the nature of a ruling group to advance its interests at the expense of other groups.  However, it is not true that it must be done in an irresponsible manner.  Without economic imperialism to enforce, American military power would not be necessary.  That was the mistake the Soviets made; they tried to exert their will through military force over other countries, and failed.  What you don't realize is that we socialists might have learned from their mistakes.

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And as to getting rid of capitalism, might I remind you what happened the last couple of times we tried to do that, i.e. mass starvation, poverty and no decent economy to speak of? The evidence speaks for itself; the best developed areas of the world, the United States, Europe, Japan and so forth, have what when all is said and considered are free and open markets.
I defy you to name me one time where "we" have tried it.  What has been tried, in most cases, is imposing economic plans upon an unwilling people.  You fail to consider the class interests of the peasantry in China and Russia, to which you seem to be referring; it is in their interest to own their own land, not to collectivize it.  You would probably make the argument that that can never change, but right now, in the advanced capitalist countries, it is in the farm workers' interest to own land cooperatively.  That would not be an imposition, and would require no military force to enforce it.

In Cuba, for example, most of the rural residents worked, for wages (that is impoertant) on plantations owned and managed by either American or Cuban planters.  They had ceased to be peasants; they had become farm workers.  Consequently, socialism was not an imposition upon them in Cuba, and they support it to this day.  In China, socialism was a patriotic way to drive out the Japanese invaders, and it soon lost its lustre.  China has ceased to be socialist precisely because of this.

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United States: 1.84
Switzerland: 1.89
Canada: 1.85
Iceland: 1.74
Ireland: 1.58
Luxembourg: 1.60
Sweden: 1.96
Denmark: 1.78

Now, there are a couple of things wrong here.  I never said that each capitalist country had to have its own imperialist military to work its will.  Each of the countries you mention, besides the United States, has a small population.  Therefore, it has a small tax base, and has a smaller pool to draw from for recruits.  None but the United States can afford such a large military.  Besides, it is in the interests of the ruling class of each of these countries to have someone else do their military dirty work for them.  That way they don't have to spend money on it.  What you fail to see is that the American military is not just the instrument of the American capitalist class; it is the instrument of the international capitalist class.

Your argument therefore fails.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:33:37 PM by Gallipoli-China »


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Offline Myroria

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2007, 07:45:33 PM »
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And you're implying that it is in the nature of Americans to be irresponsible?  Or are you implying that about the powerful?  Because I would agree with you; it is always in the nature of a ruling group to advance its interests at the expense of other groups.  However, it is not true that it must be done in an irresponsible manner.  Without economic imperialism to enforce, American military power would not be necessary.  That was the mistake the Soviets made; they tried to exert their will through military force over other countries, and failed.  What you don't realize is that we socialists might have learned from their mistakes.

North Korea. Made a nuclear weapon. Did they learn? And don't call them non-socialist; that's an opinion, not a fact.

Quote
I defy you to name me one time where "we" have tried it.  What has been tried, in most cases, is imposing economic plans upon an unwilling people.  You fail to consider the class interests of the peasantry in China and Russia, to which you seem to be referring; it is in their interest to own their own land, not to collectivize it.  You would probably make the argument that that can never change, but right now, in the advanced capitalist countries, it is in the farm workers' interest to own land cooperatively.  That would not be an imposition, and would require no military force to enforce it.

The first cavemen were, by all standards, "communist". And are they utopic? Not to mention that if people wanted communism so bad, they had 200 years to start a rebellion and do something. Farmers still own land and livestock, and they DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. Forcing a rebellion of communism onto people will immediately contradict Marx's teachings of imposing economic systems, because there will always be holdouts, much as there are communists in a capitalist society. We're doing nothing to make them buy stuff, they can live by themselves. In a communist society, there are no shops allowed, therefore a capitalist can't object to communism. Communism forces itself on it's people, capitalism doesn't.

Where do you buy your clothing GC? Your house? Anything? Being that you are a communist, you should sew your own clothing, build your own house, and walk everywhere.

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What you fail to see is that the American military is not just the instrument of the American capitalist class; it is the instrument of the international capitalist class.

What you fail to see is that the Chinese military is the instrument of international communists. It doesn't matter whether China is socialist or not, until they let corporations into it, they are, for all due purposes, not completely capitalist and therefore, are using their population to NK's, Laos', Vietnam's, and Cuba's advantage.
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2007, 07:53:36 PM »
Quote
That was the mistake the Soviets made; they tried to exert their will through military force over other countries, and failed.  What you don't realize is that we socialists might have learned from their mistakes.

You seem to back up precisely the point I made; anyone with power has the potential to abuse it, regardless of their ideology.

And for the matter of responsibility, when you consider the size of the United States, the reach and power it has, the many many ways in which mistakes can be made and harm done should be apparent. Because of its size, and because it is currently a relatively uncontested superpower, the opportunities to go astray are multiplied. And the more ways there are for mistakes to be and for irresponsible action to be taken the more likely they are to occur.

And by "we" I was referrng to humanity as a whole. The simple fact is you cannot abolish market devices and incentives completely nor should you. Do that, establish what I understand to be true communism, and you create a system in which no matter how hard you work you will earn nothing more and no matter how little you work you will earn nothing less. Thus the incentive created is not to work. If people aren't working, there's no economy. And if there is no economy, things will probably revert to a massive black market as market forces, which are like it or not ingrained to some degree in human nature in the form of self interest, inevitably take over, the government unable to administer any sizable economy centrally because without an economy, at least legal one, they've got no resources to work with.

And of course said black markets are ipso facto unregulated, creating even more problems.

Or of course everyone excepts their fate in a world without an economy and perishes, but human survival instinct is strong.

And as for your final argument, it relies on the fact that all of these nations are also in on this grand global capitalist conspiracy, for which you have not presented any evidence. What's more, you reaffirm my original point: what makes America different from these countries is not that it is capitalist, but that it is powerful, and that that power explains its actions compared to those other countries.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:55:28 PM by Pragmia »

Offline The Empire

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2007, 08:14:37 PM »
just for the record, I don't belive in the class-struggle as such, I just argue against abuse of power.

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Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2007, 08:24:51 PM »
I don't believe in paying taxes, but...
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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2007, 08:31:18 PM »
I object to using taxes. I've tried to avoid taxes by using private currency, and so far it has worked on local levels.
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2007, 01:03:03 AM »
Income tax I'm against. Sales tax and stuff actually makes sense, but income tax is:

1. Slavery
2. A punishment for being productive.

But what REALLY pisses me off is how WE have to pay taxes for having a job, but the BUMS get CHECKS.
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2007, 01:11:02 AM »
Income tax is a way to pay for a lot of government benefits other than social welfare. Social welfare is just a way of smoothening the rock bottom of society.
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