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Author Topic: Vote in 2008 america.  (Read 17328 times)

Offline Ryazania

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2007, 01:30:26 AM »
The government is wasting billions of dollars that should be handled by the private sector.
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When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2007, 01:39:27 AM »
U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A!
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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2007, 01:41:31 AM »
Hell, I don't like living in the US, and don't think I will if the current field of politicians point to anything.. I'd rather live in Ireland or Hong Kong.
Economic Left/Right: 9.65
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.37

Proud Constitutionalist

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2007, 02:06:38 AM »
Oh, Hong Kong's a very neat place to live in as long as you're not totally poor. Ireland... well... yeah.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2007, 06:45:06 AM »
Well, in sweden there has been an annual real-estate tax for the last 10 years but the new government is abolishing it by january next year. Yes, you heard it right, it's a tax for owning a property, and the value of the property is determined by what it and nearby properties have been sold for...

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Offline Romanar

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2007, 11:39:54 AM »
Yeah, we have that in the US too.  I hate that tax, though as a homeowner I'll admit that I'm biased.

Offline Allama

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2007, 12:34:23 PM »
North Korea. Made a nuclear weapon. Did they learn? And don't call them nonsocialist; that's an opinion, not a fact.

North Korea is a military dictatorship masquerading as a socialist state.  Just about nothing that goes on in that country can be called socialism.  Sorry, but that's not a "mere opinion" of any kind; fact is fact.

The first cavemen were, by all standards, "communist". And are they utopic? Not to mention that if people wanted communism so bad, they had 200 years to start a rebellion and do something. Farmers still own land and livestock, and they DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. Forcing a rebellion of communism onto people will immediately contradict Marx's teachings of imposing economic systems, because there will always be holdouts, much as there are communists in a capitalist society. We're doing nothing to make them buy stuff, they can live by themselves. In a communist society, there are no shops allowed, therefore a capitalist can't object to communism. Communism forces itself on it's people, capitalism doesn't.

I don't think you have any idea how cavemen lived or how happy they were with it.  We can only speculate (no one wrote social commentary on cave walls, believe it or not) but anthropologists have uncovered some pretty telling details, and it is highly unlikely that their lifestyle was communistic.  A certain type of tribal sharing, yes, but a society with so little advancement and job specification could hardly be called "communist".  Tribal communalism is very different..  Would you call nomadic tribes sharing livestock and living off the land communists?  What are these "all standards" you speak of?  They certainly don't fit any standards I've ever heard of for determining the nature of a political entity.

Secondly, the entire point of communism is that you cannot force it on a society.  It has to come naturally from the working class.  No one here was saying we should or even could successfully force it prematurely on any given country.  Please don't even attempt to say capitalism doesn't force itself on anyone.  If you aren't born into affluence in a capitalist society and you aren't lucky enough to live next door to a commune (which are very rare, especially in the 'States), you're stuck.  By the time you save enough money to move hundreds or thousands of miles away you'll have gotten into debt by buying a car or a home, maybe you'll have student loans from college, etc.  At that point you have to keep working a capitalist job to make money to make your payments every month.  Spend your savings to pay off your debts, and you don't have the money to move.  That's not being stuck?  That's not forced?  Hell, I can't afford to move to another town where the rents are lower to save money.

And by "we" I was referrng to humanity as a whole. The simple fact is you cannot abolish market devices and incentives completely nor should you. Do that, establish what I understand to be true communism, and you create a system in which no matter how hard you work you will earn nothing more and no matter how little you work you will earn nothing less. Thus the incentive created is not to work. If people aren't working, there's no economy. And if there is no economy, things will probably revert to a massive black market as market forces, which are like it or not ingrained to some degree in human nature in the form of self interest, inevitably take over, the government unable to administer any sizable economy centrally because without an economy, at least legal one, they've got no resources to work with.

Personally, I would absolutely love it if humanity was unselfish and compassionate enough to make the transition into pure communism.  I do not, however, believe it is possible for us to do so given our current evolutionary state.  As a species, we desire reward and possessions and power and we think we deserve it.  We are also very lazy and often won't do anything if we don't have to.  We can incorporate elements of it into our government, and I believe we should do so wherever we can, but those cannot be forced either.

[/post that's probably going to piss people off, sadly]

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2007, 01:39:23 PM »
I'd like to stress that, despite my belief in free markets and my objection to communism, that neither Myroria nor Ryazania speak for me, even if we're on the same side of this argument.

So criticize their arguments all you want  :P

And as for communism naturally coming from the "working class", problem there is that if the working class goes through the trouble of going through this whole communist revolution it shows that they ipso facto are concerned with their own personal material well being. And if that concern exists, communism will fall apart.

Offline Myroria

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2007, 07:39:14 PM »
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Just about nothing that goes on in that country can be called socialism.

Quote from: Wikipedia
State-owned industry produces nearly all manufactured goods.

However, North Korea has a command economy in which nearly everything of value is already owned by the state.

North Korea's economy remains one of the world's last centrally planned systems.

Not socialist?


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Would you call nomadic tribes sharing livestock and living off the land communists?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I would. Wikipedia says "Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production." The means of production being livestock, as many Indians used their animals for mostly everything, and as you yourself said "sharing livestock", that would mean that Indians shared the means of production, therefore being communist.

Primitive communism, which Marx himself believed existed, was the state of the pre-historic cavemen. He said that "exploitation of the working class" (Which I put in quotations because it's funny how workers have had an alternative idea for a little under 200 years and yet they don't do anything about being "exploited") came from having a surplus, which is basically saying "It's admirable to live on bare bones". If it wasn't for capitalism, there wouldn't be communism.

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If you aren't born into affluence in a capitalist society and you aren't lucky enough to live next door to a commune (which are very rare, especially in the 'States), you're stuck. By the time you save enough money to move hundreds or thousands of miles away you'll have gotten into debt by buying a car or a home, maybe you'll have student loans from college, etc.  At that point you have to keep working a capitalist job to make money to make your payments every month.  Spend your savings to pay off your debts, and you don't have the money to move.  That's not being stuck?  That's not forced?  Hell, I can't afford to move to another town where the rents are lower to save money.

My parents are not affluent, and yet they are not in debt either. People like to own things. That's how our instincts work. Communism asks humans to change everything they've ever held dear, and give up their possessions so that some leader can force power onto him and become "more equal". Power corrupts. Period. In capitalism, an absolute or strong leader over the country has little effect on the economy because everything is privately owned. In communism, a leader taking power immediately causes the economy to go all to hell, and all equality is broken. Not to mention in a communist system the leader should be living just like his people, without guards or anything (if he's in his own country). But that never happens because people will never be equal.



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Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2007, 08:51:12 PM »
People will be equal one day, either through a hivemind or last man standing.

I prefer the latter, mainly because I'm a sick bastard.

As to why I'm not adding my intellectual €0.02 to the conversation is that communism and capitalism are both viable, working systems and surprisingly, their compromise works.

Damn, I'm €0.02 poorer. Crap.
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2007, 11:19:05 PM »
Eh, I'd say that communism is absolutely unfeasible, flying in the face of all sound economic principle,  as is completely unregulated markets, which carry those same principles of economics to a disastrous end. The best option is a wise middle path that balances the strengths of a free market with the strengths of government regulation.

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2007, 11:23:24 PM »
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And you're implying that it is in the nature of Americans to be irresponsible?  Or are you implying that about the powerful?  Because I would agree with you; it is always in the nature of a ruling group to advance its interests at the expense of other groups.  However, it is not true that it must be done in an irresponsible manner.  Without economic imperialism to enforce, American military power would not be necessary.  That was the mistake the Soviets made; they tried to exert their will through military force over other countries, and failed.  What you don't realize is that we socialists might have learned from their mistakes.

North Korea. Made a nuclear weapon. Did they learn? And don't call them non-socialist; that's an opinion, not a fact.

Well, I won't call them non-socialist.  What I will call them is non-Marxist, undemocratic, and just plain insane.  And the former two adjectives are admitted to, proudly, by themselves.  Juche is, "our own kind of socialism," and not one that I particularly find atractive.  Also, there are two problems with the "they have nukes!" argument.  First, they can't really get it anywhere.  The delivery systems they've tested have failed.  Second, they are, like everyone else, subject to MAD.

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I defy you to name me one time where "we" have tried it.  What has been tried, in most cases, is imposing economic plans upon an unwilling people.  You fail to consider the class interests of the peasantry in China and Russia, to which you seem to be referring; it is in their interest to own their own land, not to collectivize it.  You would probably make the argument that that can never change, but right now, in the advanced capitalist countries, it is in the farm workers' interest to own land cooperatively.  That would not be an imposition, and would require no military force to enforce it.

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The first cavemen were, by all standards, "communist". And are they utopic? Not to mention that if people wanted communism so bad, they had 200 years to start a rebellion and do something. Farmers still own land and livestock, and they DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. Forcing a rebellion of communism onto people will immediately contradict Marx's teachings of imposing economic systems, because there will always be holdouts, much as there are communists in a capitalist society. We're doing nothing to make them buy stuff, they can live by themselves. In a communist society, there are no shops allowed, therefore a capitalist can't object to communism. Communism forces itself on it's people, capitalism doesn't.

"Primitive Communism" is a half-formed notion at best, and, even if accepted, differs from true communism in two respects.  First, it lacks productive capacity.  Cavemen simply did not have the technology that is available today.  Second, it is unmotivated by class consciousness.  Cavemen, because of their productive impotence, organized society around very local forms.  As the class structure progresses, so do the organizations of society; from family to tribe to clan to city to nation to empire to an international state.

Your "holdouts" are motivated by class interest, just as communists are motivated by class interest in capitalist society.  The thing about "holdouts" is, they are by definition a reactionary minority.

And to contradict your point about capitalism forcing itself onto people, I need only bring up...every year of its history.  I look at Africa, the West of North America, Asia, and Ocenia and I see capitalism forcing itself onto a people whose class structure wasn't ready to accept it.  Just as the Soviets shouldn't have tried to force Communism onto the Eastern Europeans whose class structure wasn't ready to accept it.

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Where do you buy your clothing GC? Your house? Anything? Being that you are a communist, you should sew your own clothing, build your own house, and walk everywhere.

Ah, how very wrong you are.  Being a communist, I believe that people should work in factories, and buy from shops.  It's just that they should also own the places at which they work, and own collectively the places that distribute goods.  Socialism isn't about turning back the clock on production.  Socialism concerns itself with remedying the maldistribution of capitalism.

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What you fail to see is that the American military is not just the instrument of the American capitalist class; it is the instrument of the international capitalist class.

What you fail to see is that the Chinese military is the instrument of international communists. It doesn't matter whether China is socialist or not, until they let corporations into it, they are, for all due purposes, not completely capitalist and therefore, are using their population to NK's, Laos', Vietnam's, and Cuba's advantage.

And that's where you're wrong.  China has completely abandoned socialism.  The Communist Party continues to exist in power only because its policies, since the 1970s, have remained friendly to its capitalist class.  And its name has ceased to carry with it any meaning.  China is a party dictatorship with a capitalist economy, as is recognized by Western economists, commentators, and virtually all informed citizens.


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Offline Myroria

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2007, 12:23:55 AM »
Quote
Also, there are two problems with the "they have nukes!" argument.  First, they can't really get it anywhere.  The delivery systems they've tested have failed.  Second, they are, like everyone else, subject to MAD

It doesn't matter if it failed or not. They still wanted it.

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Being a communist, I believe that people should work in factories, and buy from shops.  It's just that they should also own the places at which they work

Which is fine. But then you say that you believe people should collectively own things, which really expects everyone to do their part, which won't happen. In capitalism, there are incentives for the unemployed to get jobs, i.e., they can't live without them. In communism, people will live off other people. It's completely and totally unavoidable. With no reason to get a job, people won't, and we'll end up with a palace economy state where no one does anything and the government supplies everything. There are active people and inactive people. In a communist society the inactive have no reason to be active and productive.



« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 01:26:03 AM by Myrorian Theocratic Imperium »
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2007, 07:05:46 AM »
Well, in capitalism people also live off other people, the difference there is that those people are called "stock owners" or "investors".
And you, Myroria have to see the difference between true communism and the socialistic wellfare state that for example is in place in Sweden, the wellfare state gives out handouts, true communism don't, if you don't work there, you don't have anything to trade for things you want unlike the wellfare state wich serves only chaos in the long run.

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Offline Solnath

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Re: Vote in 2008 america.
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2007, 10:29:08 AM »
The incentive in communism in responsibility, simple enough. In the capitalist world of today, far too many people are too irresponsible to make communism possible.
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