Vote in 2008 america.

[Marsos]

Giuliani?  Centrist?  Liberal?  :rofl:

We need that smilie back.

His positions on gun control and abortion were calculated poses intended to win votes from social-liberal New Yorkers, and do not represent the man's ideology or his policies.  Under his administration the NYPD's practices got several times more racist than they were, the prison population skyrocketed, Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik used an apartment that was supposed to be for 9/11 rescue workers to conduct an affair, eminent domain was invoked to kick black people out of their homes, and I'm sure there was even more crap that I don't remember.  Even his position on gun control wasn't so much a liberal position as an "I'll keep guns out of the hands of blacks" position.

Conservatives, Giuliani is YOUR GUY.  He'll do a Romney-esque flip-flop on his abortion and gun control positions within a few months.  Mark my words.

Oh my.  You're the misled one, aren't you?  

You think that anyone who's racist is a conservative?     Please, get your facts straight.  To be conservative is to want smaller government, and more power in the hands of the people.  That's the way our nation was founded anyway; why try to turn it into something it wasn't meant to be: a central powerhouse government?  Liberals believe in a government that can do everything and be everything to and for the people.  In other words, a beaurocratic elite.  If you hate the fact that the government had the right to evict black people from their houses, even if by eminent domain (which btw is a pet peeve of conservatives) then I would think you support downsizing government, and not allowing Guliani to have so much power as to be able to kick people out of their houses.  Assuming that everything you said is true, which I'm sorry to say I highly doubt.

For one, you repeatedly called Guliani racist...  Can you please produce a quote, or something of that nature, where Guliani spouts racist remarks?  At the very least, back up your statements with some kind of evidence when you're making accusations this powerful.  And what makes you think that Guliani hates black people so bad?  If ANYBODY is evicted from their homes because of eminent domain, I call it wrong.  Why are you focusing on the race aspect?  That is, unless Guliani said that he was choosing to evict them only because they were black?  But again, I highly doubt that any politician today is going to come out and say that.

Guliani was the driving force behind the crack-down on crime in New York City.  If he had to crack down on certain ethnic groups in order to lower crime rates, then I say all the power to him.  Isn't the law supposed to be blind to color?  Then why would he turn a blind eye on crimes that are being committed, even if he might open himself to "racism" accusations such as yours by allowing justice to progress?  I wish that Guliani would run for mayor of Los Angeles instead of president; the powers that be in that city are so corrupt and inept when it comes to cutting crime rates it's pathetic.  The liberal politicos running the city are too worried about pandering to the Latino vote, to the extent that they're afraid to go after the hundreds of large-scale violent Mexican drug gangs destroying the city.  If Guliani had been too afraid to go after crime because it might affect his vote from the black population, that's when corruption prevails.  

Sorry if we disagree on this, and I'm sorry for the long post.  

And about the long post, this is nothing compared to the ECC. Speeches there are long-winded, thorough, and exhausting to write and read.

[Romanar]

You think that anyone who's racist is a conservative?      Please, get your facts straight.  To be conservative is to want smaller government, and more power in the hands of the people.  That's the way our nation was founded anyway; why try to turn it into something it wasn't meant to be: a central powerhouse government?  Liberals believe in a government that can do everything and be everything to and for the people.  In other words, a beaurocratic elite.  If you hate the fact that the government had the right to evict black people from their houses, even if by eminent domain (which btw is a pet peeve of conservatives) then I would think you support downsizing government, and not allowing Guliani to have so much power as to be able to kick people out of their houses.  Assuming that everything you said is true, which I'm sorry to say I highly doubt.

Bingo!  My big gripe with the Republicans these days is that they are just as pro-big-government as the Democrats.  Bush has outspent the Dems for his entire term.  The Repubs are only for small government when they aren't in charge of it. 

[Talmann]

Bingo!  My big gripe with the Republicans these days is that they are just as pro-big-government as the Democrats.  Bush has outspent the Dems for his entire term.  The Repubs are only for small government when they aren't in charge of it. 

You have to remember, he has had to deal with a war. Expenditures always go up in times of war.

[Marsos]

Bingo!  My big gripe with the Republicans these days is that they are just as pro-big-government as the Democrats.  Bush has outspent the Dems for his entire term.  The Repubs are only for small government when they aren't in charge of it. 

You have to remember, he has had to deal with a war. Expenditures always go up in times of war.

Definitely. A war is not a contest between the strength of countries' armies, it is a contest of the size and efficient use of their wallets. In terms of large government, I think it was Madam Hilary calling for socialized health care. You don't see Republicans doing that.

[The Empire]

And unilateral offensive wars as reaction to tensions the US government crated themselves during the cold war at that...

What goes around comes around, I just mourn the fact that the 9/11 attacks were aimed at civilan targets wich made them an atrocity though not as big an atrocity as the constant US bombings of infrastructure in Iraq since dessert storm combined with the unconditional support of Israel in spite of their atrocities though their neighbours isn't far behind in atrocities either...

[Allama]

And unilateral offensive wars as reaction to tensions the US government crated themselves during the cold war at that...

What goes around comes around, I just mourn the fact that the 9/11 attacks were aimed at civilan targets wich made them an atrocity though not as big an atrocity as the constant US bombings of infrastructure in Iraq since dessert storm combined with the unconditional support of Israel in spite of their atrocities though their neighbours isn't far behind in atrocities either...

I have to agree with you, especially on the relentlessly pro-Israel stance our government and populace have taken for the last six decades.  I don't support any country that willfully commits such horrible, inhumane acts against unarmed civilians.  Poisoning wells, sowing salt into fields, dropping pamphlets with pictures of mutilated corpses out of planes onto villages that have been populated by Arabs for centuries as a warning to get out of Israel before it happens to them, too... and we say we fight terror?  This isn't some splinter group; it's the officially recognized government.  Both sides of that conflict are so out of line (and have been so since the start) I find it unbelievable that the U.S. supports them.

[The Empire]

Not to mention not taking action when US-based companies hire mercenaries to drive off native population in south and central america to establish plantations for the US market and then committing US special forces to "defend" those companies when the native population reacts by forming guerillas and fighting back against the companies...

[Allama]

Or sending in U.S. forces to recruit (i.e. drum up), train, and outfit a "local" rebellion against a legitimately elected Central American leader because we didn't like his socialist policies.

[The Empire]

And then the US people wonders why everyone else is pissed at them and don't understand that the US is the "best" nation in the world ever...

[Ryazania]

I know that the US has sub-par international relations, arrogance, blah blah blah etc., but from all the traveling I've done, there is no other place I would rather live.

[Marsos]

And unilateral offensive wars as reaction to tensions the US government crated themselves during the cold war at that...

What goes around comes around, I just mourn the fact that the 9/11 attacks were aimed at civilan targets wich made them an atrocity though not as big an atrocity as the constant US bombings of infrastructure in Iraq since dessert storm combined with the unconditional support of Israel in spite of their atrocities though their neighbours isn't far behind in atrocities either...

I have to agree with you, especially on the relentlessly pro-Israel stance our government and populace have taken for the last six decades.  I don't support any country that willfully commits such horrible, inhumane acts against unarmed civilians.  Poisoning wells, sowing salt into fields, dropping pamphlets with pictures of mutilated corpses out of planes onto villages that have been populated by Arabs for centuries as a warning to get out of Israel before it happens to them, too... and we say we fight terror?  This isn't some splinter group; it's the officially recognized government.  Both sides of that conflict are so out of line (and have been so since the start) I find it unbelievable that the U.S. supports them.

Where'd you hear that? I'd have a hard time believing that without credible sources, so I'm sure you have some. Going off of what I know, I would say that Palestine and Israel do wrongs on both sides, but it'd be hard to find a conflict where one country was all right or all wrong. While you could question the legitimacy of the Israeli state (the powers that be uprooting the natives to give the Israelis a homeland) you could say the same about the Palestinian state, as the Romans uprooted the Israelis and settled Palestinians there. About the question of who commits atrocities, Palestine is not anymore innocent than Israel. They fight, and fight dirty just like the Israelis.

[Barceleroth]

I agree with Marsos.  Allama and Empire: You're both lovely people, but you guys are starting to act like typical left-wing lunes who unjustly attempt to simplify a complex situation, down to an ignorant conclusion that conveniently fits their agenda.  I heard alot of strong accusations, but no sited evidence at all.  Please, give me some solid proof and I can take you much more seriously. 

Secondly, I think somebody needs a reality check when they begin to blame others for fighting 'dirty' against the Palestinians, or any warring groups of Islam.  We're talking about Muslims who fight wars in the name of their god; who massacre innocents by the hundreds because they're "infidels"; who behead non-combatants, and show video footage of the "glorious" proceedings to all the world, and etc.  For six decades, Israel has had to fight for its survival, surrounded by a sea of hostile Islamic nations who didn't want her there.  And she has triumphed so far, if only by succeeding to exist.  I do not condone all that Israel has done in its wars, but I do know that whatever "atrocities" Israel has resorted to, they are next to nothing in comparison to those committed by its enemies, who commit horrible atrocities in the name of their 'god'.  Btw, if you want proof of what I say, follow current events for a week.  No, three days.  Any three days, I'm not choosy.

Why do you think that the Islamic nations of the Middle East happen to hate Israel so much?  Because it's the nearest Christian, non-muslim nation.  Once they would exterminate Israel, Islamic facsists would next be assaulting other Christian nations around them.  They want to pick a fight with anyone who does not share their beliefs, because they believe that is their ticket to paradise.  As someone said before, not every muslim is a terrorist, but every terrorist is a muslim (with one or two exceptions).  And in this nuclear age, it only takes one to destroy the lives of millions. 

Empire and Allama: Unless you two are Muslim, then just remember there are many people in this world who want you and me dead, only because they think their god wants them to kill you (after all, what's religion for? ). 

Now, I didn't say all of this in support of the current war, or Israel, or the GOP, or whatever you're thinking.    I only think that we need to get things in perspective, from both sides, when we talk about the "atrocities" of the US and her allies. 

[Myroria]

I don't think the Muslims are bad. Islam is a religion of peace, and some crazy people who happen to have a lot of power is ruining it's name. Otherwise I agree with you.

[Talmann]

I have no idea how this discussion got to religion, but I'll add one thing before we [/hijack].
I have chosen to be agnostic partially because there are those in every religion who read something into their religion's doctrine to have an excuse to commit horrible things. Islam has jihad, Christianity had the Crusades (and the Holocaust), Judaism actually had Jesus murdered (PM me if you want details), Hinduism had the many wars over the government of India during Ghandi's day, and Buddism had a recent terrorist group in Japan (recent being late 1990's to 2000) that bombed Tokyo's subway. Yes, nowadays all religious violence seems to be concentrated in Islam, but one can't make the assumption that ALL Muslims are evil and dangerous. Now, [/hijack] and let's talk some politics!

[The Empire]

I am actually a christian protestant. As such I belive that the message of love that Jesus attempted to spread supercedes pretty much everything. As such I also view the loudest US right-wing "christians" as war mongering heretics.
Also, far from all terrorists are muslim, just as many claim to be christian or Jewish

I never said that the palistinians or any of Israel's neighbours was without blame, in my eyes they are more or less equal. What makes the Israeli atrocities worse is that they are conducted from a stronger position.

And with regards to proof of US atrocities, start with the "indian wars" and slavery, then go forward. Of course, back then they wasn't the only ones in that boat either but that doesn't decrease validity. Also, can you mention any single decade post WW2 where the US hasn't been involved in armed conflict somwhere in the world? Of how many other nations can anyone say the same?