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News: Citoyen reminder: Socioendangerment levels run from one to sixteen. Cooperation with mandatory sentencing from the Citoyen-Mediator may result in decreased rehabilitation length.

Poll

Do you believe the world would be a better place without violence?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Violence  (Read 7218 times)

Offline Allama

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Re: Violence
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2007, 01:08:57 PM »
Oh. My bad. Well, the same tactic was used in the American Wars of Independence, American & English Civil Wars etc...so just substitute it for those. ;D

No worries!  You are right that the cannon-fodder mentality has always existed, of course.  I just think it's been tinged with more of a lackadaisical "if our men get caught in the line of fire, too bad" attitude in the past century, with less value and appreciation placed on individual lives.  As weapons of mass destruction (God, I hate that term now) become the tactic-of-choice around the world we kill on a much grander scale.

Offline Dysanii

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Re: Violence
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2007, 01:12:35 PM »
Oh. My bad. Well, the same tactic was used in the American Wars of Independence, American & English Civil Wars etc...so just substitute it for those. ;D

No worries!  You are right that the cannon-fodder mentality has always existed, of course.  I just think it's been tinged with more of a lackadaisical "if our men get caught in the line of fire, too bad" attitude in the past century, with less value and appreciation placed on individual lives.  As weapons of mass destruction (God, I hate that term now) become the tactic-of-choice around the world we kill on a much grander scale.

Agreed. But surely, if WMDs are only used as deterrents, they may in fact be saving soldiers having to fight (pull out of said country, or we'll nuke your ass). Therefore, perhaps it could be said that in some wacky, zaney way WMDs prevent violence?

Offline Allama

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Re: Violence
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2007, 01:32:53 PM »
If you consider slaughtering civilians to save your own soldiers "preventing violence", yes.  Yes it can.   :-P

But I jest (sort of).  I know you probably meant threatening to use them.  The problem with that is that you cannot make military threats you aren't willing to go through with, so you do have to be willing to kill innocents to use WMD's as a threat.

In all seriousness, in warfare how many armies actually use WMD's as deterrents only?  How many bombs has the U.S. alone dropped on other countries?  We don't even have to talk about anything recent, just look at all the bomber planes everyone had flying around in WWII.  If we have it, we'll use it.

Offline Dysanii

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Re: Violence
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2007, 02:04:40 PM »
Uh-huh.

*Thinks back to Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within Zeus cannon killing Gaia*

At any rate, I don't mean to go off topic (sorry Sol) but, something that gets me really worked up is when people say to me, "We'll, its totally unfair that we don't let anyone else have nuclear bombs/missiles."

Well, you have to ask WHY you would let a country like Iran develop said weapons. I think the U.S. (not solely but most frequently) is justified in denying countries like Iran obtain nuclear weapons - for a nation that is unstable and wants to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, why the hell would you let them have such awesome power at their disposal?

I also hear the term 'World Police' thrown about as well - and if being World Police means keeping nuclear weapons from manic religious nutcases like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who want to destroy the 'infidels', then so be it.

/End Rant.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 02:07:40 PM by Dysanii »

Offline Solnath

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Re: Violence
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2007, 08:02:54 PM »
Meh, going off-topic doesn't annoy me at all. You are having a decent discussion anyway. But I must detest, ever since the Cold War ended and nuclear weapons began finding their way into various factions' hands, things have gone from bad to worse. Hopefully, when some of the minor league players blows up Tel Aviv, people will wake up to see the reality of the threat. At least after the US nukes the shit out of Iran or the likes.
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Violence
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2007, 08:09:18 PM »
Well, problem with Iran is that they could hand of their nuclear devices to a terrorist entity or the like free of any formal ties to a state, and thus there would be no target for a retaliatory nuclear strike, voiding MAD. Now that is something to worry about.

Offline Saletsia

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Re: Violence
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2007, 08:40:21 PM »
^that's just the kind of bullshit someone who hasn't seen the true face of modern warfare says, there is nothing glorious about war, it's just mud, blood, pain, death, fear and shit...

Agreed.

(that was the reason I had to quote it)    O:-)

Offline Ryazania

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Re: Violence
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2007, 08:51:39 PM »
While I agree with the statement that modern warfare has lost the romanticism that it used to have, I still stand by this quote.

" Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. "
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Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline The Empire

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Re: Violence
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2007, 08:55:23 PM »
well, only as long as it's purely defence, as in on your country's OWN, undisputed soil.

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Offline Dysanii

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Re: Violence
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2007, 09:46:10 PM »
Well, hopefully the future will be like Hellgate London, where humans run around in armour fighting demons. That's much more romantic then nuclear war, but just as destructive. Its a win win situation! Bring on the demons!

Offline Solnath

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Re: Violence
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2007, 09:48:04 PM »
I don't want it to be like that. I want to be able to enter and exit buildings. :P
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Offline Liam

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Re: Violence
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2007, 07:41:56 AM »
Uh-huh.

*Thinks back to Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within Zeus cannon killing Gaia*

At any rate, I don't mean to go off topic (sorry Sol) but, something that gets me really worked up is when people say to me, "We'll, its totally unfair that we don't let anyone else have nuclear bombs/missiles."

Well, you have to ask WHY you would let a country like Iran develop said weapons. I think the U.S. (not solely but most frequently) is justified in denying countries like Iran obtain nuclear weapons - for a nation that is unstable and wants to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, why the hell would you let them have such awesome power at their disposal?

I also hear the term 'World Police' thrown about as well - and if being World Police means keeping nuclear weapons from manic religious nutcases like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who want to destroy the 'infidels', then so be it.

/End Rant.

Out of curiosity ... would you feel safe as Iran, with America having the nuclear bomb? The only nation so far who actually used it to wipe out 2 cities (not military camps or such, but cities) and who just recently invaded a neighboring country, under the pretense of it having WMD and links to Al Kaida? Both being claims, which so far have been seen to be well let's say it nicely ... a bit of a misunderstanding?
Oh and don't confuse a fundamentalistic, religious Government with an unstable one. Not being democratic may seem odd for some people in our beloved western world, but it doesn't necessarily make you a) evil b) unstable or c) loose you your rights to use atomic energy in a civil way, which is even granted in the NPT. You could argue, that since most of the United Nations are behind it, the Iran should just give in and accept it, but well America is the country which openly denies the right of the International Court of Justice in Den Haag (which is the United Nations court) to judge on possible warcrimes commited by US Soldiers.
So I guess you could say, from the viewpoint of the Iran and several other nations in this world, at least America should be one of the nations to give up their WMD too, cause they have certainly shown their willingness to use them and not to care to much about what the United Nations think.

Apart from that and back on topic, hmm sure violence had it's benefits, but praising them is a bit macabre. I don't think the inventions made during war, especially during the two worldwars have really been worth all the suffering, the pain and millions of dead people. Just imagine all the lives lost, all the brilliant minds killed, all the energy and ressources wasted... no I can't bring myself to see something good in it. Our short lifespan in combination with a certain arrogance, curiosity and the will to excel, to be important, is enough to further scientific development.

A world without violence would be better, because I think it's one of the things holding us back, cause why develop, why be civilized, if in the end we can solve all problems by falling back to the most primitive of all means. Just overpower and subdue everyone who thinks differently and if they still are stubborn kill them.

Offline Solnath

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Re: Violence
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2007, 08:53:10 AM »
^ missed the point. No violence, no humans. :-P
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Offline Khem

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Re: Violence
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2007, 11:10:16 PM »
sorry to be late to this thread but as a person who gains sexual/intellectual/physical satisfaction from violence i support it fully. without violence we wouldn't have BDSM, martial arts, nifty boots, character building experiences and many technologies. violence like many good things is great in moderation. also violence is one of the main driving forces of evolution and personal drive.

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Offline The Empire

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Re: Violence
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2007, 10:24:18 AM »
Well, I belive one has to separate consentual and non-consentual violence, the main variety that has been discussed here is the latter, wich is completely unnessessary no matter what, period.

Join the Word Bearer legion and brin glory to the dark gods! Taijitu stalker extraordinaire - no Taijituan presses a key without my knowledge, Resident Cannibal - I prefer females, Resident ginormous dragon - It is not a good idea to mess with a dragon who is packing heavy firepower