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Author Topic: The Idea of Sovereignty  (Read 2451 times)

Offline Eientei

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The Idea of Sovereignty
« on: June 03, 2007, 03:14:37 AM »
Seeing as NS is a nation simulator with a great focus on diplomacy, the issue of the sovereignty of states in real life seems appropriate to bring up.  The founding of the International Criminal Court and other international institutions raises the level of multilateral activity among the world states.  That might promote peace and prosperity (if it doesn't actually cause conflict instead, because who knows.)

However, some say it cripples the idea and the practice of national sovereignty.  It's been the basis of international relations since the 1600's, but are times changing?  The Bush Administration "unsigned" the Rome Statute creating the ICC on the grounds that foreigners would be able to bring Americans to a court in Europe, a violation of US sovereignty.

What do you think of it?  Should states have more sovereignty at the expense of peace or less sovereignty, breaking down the established system?  Or is the whole argument just screwed up in itself?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 08:43:33 AM by Eientei »

Offline Delfos

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 06:02:41 AM »
yes, i don't even understand. But anyway, i suppose that's how you face it. In case of what you say, a portuguese that committed a crime in USA can be trialed in his motherland, it's called extradition. The other way is against of most of the laws of the countries. I say the latest polemic one about that Russian that is accused by the brittish government of poisoning that ex-KGB, and that they want to trial him in UK, but Russia doesn't allow that.

At some sort, i think he should be trialed in UK since he committed the crime in UK, he was facing brittish own sovereignty when he committed the crime, so what you said can come around too.

Offline Khablan

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 08:04:23 AM »
I would say that there should be no problem with the main classes of offenses; genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.  But the (as yet) undefined offense of crimes of aggression could be a sticking point.  I know I wouldn't want to sign a contract before the other party had even decided what to include in the document.  I'd want to see it written in stone first, so to speak.

As far as whether such a thing cripples sovereignty, certainly it could, if taken too far.  But when it focuses exclusively on things like extreme violations of human rights (such as torture, genocide) rather than trying to nitpick the grayer areas where various countries may not agree, then I can't see it conflicting with sovereign interests in countries where such things are considered wrong. 
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Offline Eientei

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 08:41:39 AM »
As far as whether such a thing cripples sovereignty, certainly it could, if taken too far.  But when it focuses exclusively on things like extreme violations of human rights (such as torture, genocide) rather than trying to nitpick the grayer areas where various countries may not agree, then I can't see it conflicting with sovereign interests in countries where such things are considered wrong. 

In the case of the ICC, maybe I should say it directly affects jurisdiction, which may indirectly cripple sovereignty.  It's  still not terribly clear, but then, neither is John Bolton's paper in which he takes a giant leak on the whole idea of the ICC.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 08:44:41 AM by Eientei »

Offline Khablan

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 06:33:43 PM »
Well, as politics goes, I'm sure there are lots of ramifications that those of us not in the field wouldn't even be remotely aware of.  Eientei, I'm not familiar with the John Bolton paper - do you happen to have a link where I could find information on it?
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Offline Eientei

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 01:25:55 AM »
It's "The Risks and Weaknesses of the International Criminal Court from America's Perspective" at

http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?64+Law+&+Contemp.+Probs.+167+(Winter+2001)

He makes a few points, but I think Bolton has an extreme position on the issue.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 04:33:11 AM »
It is, as I believe may have already been noted, the classic trade off between freedom and security. I for one am an avid internationalist. I believe that  by far one of the best ways to ensure a true and lasting peace is to breed conditions on the international stage in which countries are mutually dependent on one another such that to act against another nation is to harm themselves as well. As such, I do not object to the ICC. As far as I'm concerned, if the US government ever to go off and commit one of the crimes it covers there's no reason that we shouldn't be held as accountable as anyone else and made to take responsibility.

Offline Khablan

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 06:48:26 AM »
Thank you very much for that link, Eientei.  I haven't completely finished reading the paper, but sections do imply that the vagueness of the offenses is a hindrance.  Bolton uses examples of past occurences for which the US could technically be retroactively found guilty of war crimes under the current wording, such as the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WWII.  Given the aggressive and maverick nature of the Bush administration's actions internationally, I can certainly why they would be all the more cautious about such a thing.  It seems to validate my earlier supposition that the open-endedness of the wording as a major concern, particularly since it would assert automatic jurisdiction. 

And speaking of automatic jurisdiction, the fact that it would hold accountable all nations, not only those who agree to be bound by it, means that it could most certainly intrude upon the sovereignty of certain countries where such offenses are practiced by the governments.  But should that take precedence over an attempt to reduce such offenses?  Personally, in a broad sense, I think not. 

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(From Bolton's paper) Because parties to the ICC may refer alleged crimes to the prosecutor, we can virtually guarantee that some will, from the very outset, seek to use the court for political purposes.
 

This is a given in any political arena, due to the nature of politics and politicians, and is a large reason behind many failures of attempts to promote worldwide peace.  It is certainly an important matter of concern when it involves the giving up of a certain amount of control to another body of people.  The giving of power to fallible human beings who may not necessarily wield it solely for the purpose of the greater good can make for dangerous waters.  It is a risk on a national as well as an international scale.

Aside from the ICC, which is not ideal in its present state (if anything truly ever is), I feel that sovereignty, like human rights, should be nurtured, but when the two conflict, precedence should not be given to sovereignty over basic human rights.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 09:58:51 AM »
As a peace loving europeean and anti-corporationalist, this part cathed my eyes very quickly:

"This is but one of many reasons why the Statute of Rome10 is harmful to the national interests of the United States, is unsound foreign policy, and is a threat to the independence and flexibility that America's military forces need to defend U.S. national interests around the world."

Do anyone else see the incoherency and underlying threat of the, by me, boldened sub sentence?
Especially the last part of expressing an arrogant posture of using military force to eliminate competition towards american companies regardless if theat competition comes from local, FOREIGN populations, foreign governments or foreign companies.

Not to even mention parts of the US legislation coded the "patriot act" that actually tries to place US jurisdiction over EVERYONE and tries to seize the right to make completely Ad Hoc arrests of ANYONE, ANYWHERE that fulfils certain criteria determined by the US govt. And as if that wasn't enough, it also "allows" the US state to hold people arrested under such pretext for indefinite time without trial and no guarantee against US govt. sanctioned torture. This if anything makes his "vagueness" resistance moot beyond doubt.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:16:44 AM by The Empire »

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Offline Solnath

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2007, 11:13:24 AM »
My input shall be brief: nationalism is passé, a unified world government would solve this problem as well.

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Offline Myroria

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 11:16:01 AM »
I never even knew "national interest" was still politically correct.

And that's all I'm saying in this thread.
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Offline Eientei

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2007, 05:08:18 PM »
Thank you very much for that link, Eientei.  I haven't completely finished reading the paper, but sections do imply that the vagueness of the offenses is a hindrance.  Bolton uses examples of past occurences for which the US could technically be retroactively found guilty of war crimes under the current wording, such as the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WWII.  Given the aggressive and maverick nature of the Bush administration's actions internationally, I can certainly why they would be all the more cautious about such a thing.  It seems to validate my earlier supposition that the open-endedness of the wording as a major concern, particularly since it would assert automatic jurisdiction. 

And speaking of automatic jurisdiction, the fact that it would hold accountable all nations, not only those who agree to be bound by it, means that it could most certainly intrude upon the sovereignty of certain countries where such offenses are practiced by the governments.  But should that take precedence over an attempt to reduce such offenses?  Personally, in a broad sense, I think not. 

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(From Bolton's paper) Because parties to the ICC may refer alleged crimes to the prosecutor, we can virtually guarantee that some will, from the very outset, seek to use the court for political purposes.
 

This is a given in any political arena, due to the nature of politics and politicians, and is a large reason behind many failures of attempts to promote worldwide peace.  It is certainly an important matter of concern when it involves the giving up of a certain amount of control to another body of people.  The giving of power to fallible human beings who may not necessarily wield it solely for the purpose of the greater good can make for dangerous waters.  It is a risk on a national as well as an international scale.

Aside from the ICC, which is not ideal in its present state (if anything truly ever is), I feel that sovereignty, like human rights, should be nurtured, but when the two conflict, precedence should not be given to sovereignty over basic human rights.

The ICC certainly needs time to establish itself, as it's a very young institution.  The principle of retroactively charging people for crimes is one I also have a problem with, though I think most of the offenses the ICC deals with are covered by many different treaties, conventions and in a very general way by the UN Charter itself.

I wouldn't worry too much about politically-motivitated charges brought against the US, at least.  It would be hard to imagine a prosecutor calling, say, Donald Rumsfeld to court and expecting the US to send him.  The United States has enough influence to be able to threaten to pull out of the ICC, or if it were still not a member of the Rome Statute, to threaten to cut off parts of its UN funding and twist the arm of the court, and American lawyers would probably be able to make a case for political motives in the charge anyway.  Also, if the US were to join the Rome Statute, it would be able to continue shaping the court for its own purposes, which is pretty impossible to do as an outsider.  That's why President Clinton signed the statute, even though he knew Congress would never ratify it.  Of course, these points don't apply to smaller states that don't have the benefit of American power and influence.

I agree that sovereignty shouldn't take precedence over human rights.  However, I think the ICC will be limited, at least for a while, by political realities - i.e. American, Chinese or Russian politicians or high officials might have committed crimes against humanity, but they won't be brought before the ICC because their countries are influential enough to be able to ignore the charge and argue against it without too many consequences.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 05:11:55 PM by Eientei »

Offline Khablan

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 06:52:11 PM »
Quote
The ICC certainly needs time to establish itself, as it's a very young institution...

...Also, if the US were to join the Rome Statute, it would be able to continue shaping the court for its own purposes, which is pretty impossible to do as an outsider.  That's why President Clinton signed the statute, even though he knew Congress would never ratify it.

That's precisely what I was thinking as I was reading.  Especially since Clinton signed it with the provision that changes would be made.  I'm personally not of the opinion that pulling out of it altogether was the best course of action.  But it also doesn't surprise me, given the maverick nature of this current administration.  I'll be curious to see what the next administration decides.

Quote
I wouldn't worry too much about politically-motivitated charges brought against the US, at least.  It would be hard to imagine a prosecutor calling, say, Donald Rumsfeld to court and expecting the US to send him.  The United States has enough influence to be able to threaten to pull out of the ICC, or if it were still not a member of the Rome Statute, to threaten to cut off parts of its UN funding and twist the arm of the court, and American lawyers would probably be able to make a case for political motives in the charge anyway.

You may very well be right.  I think the current administration, though, much prefers not to have to answer to anyone on anything, since at the very least, it adds complication in doing whatever it is that they're trying to do.  Given the fact that Bush has shown such a tendency to try to steer the American people's attention away from things that they might protest, having to answer to the ICC, even if the risk of repercussion is nil, would still bring more attention to that which they're trying to keep quiet.

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"This is but one of many reasons why the Statute of Rome10 is harmful to the national interests of the United States, is unsound foreign policy, and is a threat to the independence and flexibility that America's military forces need to defend U.S. national interests around the world."

Do anyone else see the incoherency and underlying threat of the, by me, boldened sub sentence?

Absolutely I do.  It clearly implies that the US government does not want its international freedoms reduced.  The use of the term "defend U.S. national interests" is political double-talk, because politicians do of course stretch the definition of "defense" when it suits their political goals.  Believe me when I say that I do not like that statement any more than you do.

As for the Patriot Act, I dislike that as well - it gives the government too much power and too little accountability, in my opinon.

I do not subscribe to the theory that "might makes right", and the current administration in the US seems to lean toward that too heavily for my tastes.

I apologize to Eientei - it seems I'm concentrating more heavily on the US government's decision toward the ICC rather than the original question, which was whether multilateralism intrudes too far upon sovereignty in general. 
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Offline The Empire

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 07:51:47 PM »
I also appologizes for leading the topic astray.
My position on sovereignity vs multilateralism I belive that the ICC can definitely be a step in a good direction.
Also, I am of the oppinion that the nation state as a cultural construction has passed it's best-before date and the time has come for starting to work towards a united planet. That unification can only come from education and from us in the technologically rich western world to help those not as well off to reach our standards with a minimal waste of resources. A second, maybe even more important issue is that individual human rights has to be enforced, against the will of states if nessessary and, even more important, enforced above any interests of multinational corporations.

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Offline Khablan

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Re: The Idea of Sovereignty
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2007, 03:25:23 PM »
Certainly sovereignty is important - nations must have the ability to rule themselves.  And nationalism in its simplest sense is important in that a government must see to its own people first.  The question is a matter of degree.  What one nation does often affects other nations, whether only its nearest neighbors or those on the other side of the world, and so it behooves any responsible government to take such things into consideration in planning its actions.

Morality, in large part, is subjective to the individual culture.  The drinking of alcohol might be illegal in one, and not considered immoral in another.  So such things must be left to the individual nation to decide.  But there are also the more extreme issues that are viewed in virtually the same way all over the world, such as those the ICC addresses; genocide, war crimes, crimes of aggression against other nations. 

Does a group of more powerful nations have the right to force the smaller ones to comply with world sentiment?  The League of Nations was born in a time when rulers realized that things had gotten out of hand to the point where the actions of a nation were potentially endangering others, and in some ways, ALL nations. 

Multilateralism is crucial on some issues.  I doubt that anyone would argue that.  In those cases, I do believe that sovereignty must be compromised, if necessary, in order to secure the safety of the world and its people.
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