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News: Citoyen reminder: Socioendangerment levels run from one to sixteen. Cooperation with mandatory sentencing from the Citoyen-Mediator may result in decreased rehabilitation length.

Author Topic: The Death Penalty  (Read 7219 times)

Offline The Empire

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2008, 07:11:39 PM »
No, I haven't re-read number four, because I don't argue with people who have broken the law in several countries.

That sounds like a cheaper-than-dirt attempt at excusing ignorance...

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Offline Gulliver

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2008, 09:48:03 PM »
Quote from: The Empire
3) Penalties as a deterrent doesn't work since all criminals intend to not get caught and if they succeed, the penalty they COULD have been sentenced to doesn't mean shit.

Quote from: Korinn
3. Rehabilitation doesn't work either.

I hope you two are aware of the absurd conclusion that you've reached in inadvertent tandem. We cannot deter criminals, we cannot rehabilitate them. In other words crime is completely uncontrollable and there's not a thing we can do about it. So why the Hell are we debating the death penalty then?

Both of these propositions, that we cannot deter criminals with the prospect of punishment and that we can't rehabilitate them are preposterous.

The chance of incurring a punishment is a potential risk which every potential criminal must consider even if they intend to avoid such punishment. The risk is there all the same and if is sufficient to outweigh what they stand to gain through crime then it can deter them. People don't invest money with the intent of losing it all either, but that doesn't mean a needless risky one won't deter them if they conclude the risk does not justify the potential gain. The same sort of cost benefit analysis applies here.

Likewise, that all criminals cannot be rehabilitated is also a silly proposition. Many people commit crimes not because they're inherently bastards but out of economic desperation which makes crime attractive and justifies its risk (as they have nothing to lose and everything to gain). Equip them with the tools to avoid that desperation and they won't repeat their crimes. If you need a real life example consider the Prisoner Entrepreneur Program in Texas. Whereas within the state's prison population at large more than 50% end back up in jail within three years of being released, graduates of the PEP have a recidivism rate of less than 5%. Part of the high rate of success is because it's very selective, but some people are indeed beyond rehabilitation and it wouldn't make a terrible amount of sense to waste effort on them and the program nonetheless demonstrates that some prisoners can be successfully rehabilitated in one way or another.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 09:52:23 PM by Gulliver »

Offline The Empire

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2008, 03:59:38 PM »
I didn't say criminals can't be deterred, only that the severity of the penalty isn't an effective deterrent, at least not on it's own accord. A police force that's almost always present and attentive witnesses likely to act on the other hand, is a very strong deterrent. Meaning the penalty isn't the deterrent, a high risk of getting caught is.

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Offline Myroria

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2008, 04:57:25 PM »
Ignorance:

ignorance (plural ignorances)

1. The condition of being uninformed or uneducated. Lacking knowledge or information.


I know what rehabilitation is, and I know how it works, so don't call me ignorant when you yourself are ignorant of what it means. Do you plan to rehabilitate kleptomaniacs? Serial killers (Which, by definition, requires the existance of Antisocial personality disorder)? You can't rehabilitate someone with a mental illness. You can give them medicine, but it never goes way. Crime will never go away, as Pragmia said, but I hold the belief that just because crime is always present doesn't mean that crime should go unpunished. If you take someone's life, you must take theirs. You can't put someone who kills for fun into a clinic and let them out a year later thinking they'll change. That's like giving a schizophrenic therapy but no medication, and expecting him to stop hearing voices. Or giving someone with severe OCD some aversion therapy and thinking that they're all better. Rehabilitation cannot help an inherent problem in the mind of the criminal. If someone who's "sane" (I use "sane" because in most non-psychotic cases, sanity is relative to the society) commits a crime for their own monetary gain, telling them they're wrong isn't going to stop them from doing it again. They know its wrong, just as someone with OCD knows their compulsions are irrational, or someone with Asperger's Syndrome knows their social skills are impaired. But they're doing it on their own free will (contrasting with OCD and AS), and rehabilitation can't affect free will, and unless you're using the fucking Ludovico technique, they'll just say they're better and turn around and do it again.

And even proposing that the Holocaust might not have happened is illegal in several countries.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2008, 05:29:06 PM »
The only thing you prooved with that rant Garth, is that you have a grave logic deficiency coupled with a frightening lack of interest in understanding anyone else's situation or life conditions and a grossly inflated ego when it comes to judging others...

Using your logic, if you happened to kill somone who walked out in front of your car while you were driving and fidgeting with the stereo, you should be killed in turn since you took a life. Right?

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Offline Myroria

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2008, 03:13:35 AM »
Actually, no. That's involuntary manslaughter. You know I meant murder, and if you want to get into a long argument about semantics with a native English speaker, be my guest.

And you really shouldn't be fiddling with the radio at 50 miles an hour anyway, but it's still just a suspended license as far as I'm concerned.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 03:19:55 AM by Commonwealth Monarchy of Myroria »
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Gulliver

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2008, 04:43:52 AM »
Quote from: The Empire
Meaning the penalty isn't the deterrent, a high risk of getting caught is.

But being caught is only a problem because of the penalty that you are then subject to.

Offline j delight

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2008, 04:44:33 AM »
Agreed.  On the test of constitutionality, it passes.  Morally...I don't know.  But seriously...if you're already going to kill them, what's the fuss about "cruel and unusual punishment"?  This is going to sound crass, but wouldn't throwing them out of a plane work equally as well?  I'm just saying that you shouldn't act like you want to be humane to someone when you're already killing them.


This is so true, it is after all the the death penalty, why be so PC on how it is done.

I believe in most of the U.S. hanging is not allowed, but probably because it's not 100% effective and not because of any questions of humanity.  Dunno...
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Offline The Empire

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2008, 02:49:56 PM »
I have been thinking, and there is another logical flaw in your reasoning Garth, No one has to do anything if somone kills someone else. Arguably, it could be stupid not to do something though. I agree with you as far as someone commiting a crime is waving parts or all of their human rights, BUT that doesn't mean anyone else (including society as an entity) get an 'abuse or kill at will' card for that person. It just means we don't have any moral obligations to do anything to help him/her in any kind of situation.

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Offline kor

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2008, 05:19:14 PM »
Quote from: The Empire
3) Penalties as a deterrent doesn't work since all criminals intend to not get caught and if they succeed, the penalty they COULD have been sentenced to doesn't mean shit.

Quote from: Korinn
3. Rehabilitation doesn't work either.

I hope you two are aware of the absurd conclusion that you've reached in inadvertent tandem. We cannot deter criminals, we cannot rehabilitate them. In other words crime is completely uncontrollable and there's not a thing we can do about it. So why the Hell are we debating the death penalty then?

Both of these propositions, that we cannot deter criminals with the prospect of punishment and that we can't rehabilitate them are preposterous.

The chance of incurring a punishment is a potential risk which every potential criminal must consider even if they intend to avoid such punishment. The risk is there all the same and if is sufficient to outweigh what they stand to gain through crime then it can deter them. People don't invest money with the intent of losing it all either, but that doesn't mean a needless risky one won't deter them if they conclude the risk does not justify the potential gain. The same sort of cost benefit analysis applies here.

Likewise, that all criminals cannot be rehabilitated is also a silly proposition. Many people commit crimes not because they're inherently bastards but out of economic desperation which makes crime attractive and justifies its risk (as they have nothing to lose and everything to gain). Equip them with the tools to avoid that desperation and they won't repeat their crimes. If you need a real life example consider the Prisoner Entrepreneur Program in Texas. Whereas within the state's prison population at large more than 50% end back up in jail within three years of being released, graduates of the PEP have a recidivism rate of less than 5%. Part of the high rate of success is because it's very selective, but some people are indeed beyond rehabilitation and it wouldn't make a terrible amount of sense to waste effort on them and the program nonetheless demonstrates that some prisoners can be successfully rehabilitated in one way or another.

Kill them all and let their gods sort them out. >_>

<_<

 :P



Offline Myroria

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2008, 08:05:12 PM »
How is that a logical flaw in MY argument? You're presenting your opinion. Logic is, by definition, absent of opinion. By saying that you think that, you're just saying that. Logic does not state that rehabilitation is better than punishment, because there's not enough evidence to stack up.

That would be like me saying that "Socialism is illogical, because I don't think it works." No, I don't THINK it works, but that doesn't make it illogical.

Oh, and:

Quote
The only thing you prooved with that rant Garth, is that you have a grave logic deficiency coupled with a frightening lack of interest in understanding anyone else's situation or life conditions and a grossly inflated ego when it comes to judging others...

No, actually, I'm defending my mentally ill bretheren. I know what it's like to lose control of your thoughts, and I KNOW my obsessions would not be solved by therapy, which is what rehabilitation is. I'm not holding them to the same standard as "sane" people; you're pulling the idea that I think that mentally ill people should be executed out of thin air. Quite the contrary. I'm saying they need to be punished, yes, but I was making the point that rehabilitation doesn't work on mentally ill criminals. You're assuming that because I think they should be punished, that I believe they're held to the same standard; that's contextomy.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:11:33 PM by Commonwealth Monarchy of Myroria »
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Eientei

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2008, 09:04:47 PM »
I love watching a Swede and an American arguing over the morality of the death penalty.  One place is dramatically different from the other, and sometimes what's good for the goose is no good at all for the gander.

I agree with Trey on the "cruel and unusual" issue.  The state is putting people to death, and the death part should be the part we're focusing on, not whether the condemned experiences some pain for a few minutes before dying.  It's certainly best to carry out a less painful than a more painful execution, but it shouldn't be the focus of the debate as it seems to be in the US today.

Offline Space Raider

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2008, 05:58:41 PM »
OH YEAH!
We keep our weapons super destructive, but they're never used unless our national security is threatened, our foreign trade blockaded, we are invaded, our planetary colonies invaded, or our capital is nuked.-President of The Most Powerful Nation In The World (TMPNITW), G-Day Rawlings-
:o
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Offline Trey

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2008, 10:28:30 PM »
Show of hands: Should we sentence Space Raider to the death penalty?  Here's one aye vote...
"I believe every single person is extraordinary. The tragedy is that we
have a society where too many people never get to fulfill that
extraordinary potential. My view – the liberal view – is that
government’s job is to help them to do it. Not to tell people how to
live their lives. But to make their choices possible, to release their
potential, no matter who they are. The way to do that is to take power away from those who hoard it. To challenge vested interests. To break down privilege. To clear out the bottlenecks in our society that block opportunity and block progress. And so give everyone a chance to live the life they want." - Nick Clegg, Leader of the Liberal Democrats and Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

Offline Myroria

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Re: The Death Penalty
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2008, 10:39:24 PM »
Aye.
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."