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Author Topic: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!  (Read 15387 times)

Offline Bender1968

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #165 on: September 19, 2007, 12:16:09 PM »
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - Karl Marx

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #166 on: September 19, 2007, 01:22:25 PM »
alright, if we ain't moving up from here I'm done with this topic. And Eientei, irony is one of the strongest weapons of allegory.

Offline Cyadkuso

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #167 on: September 19, 2007, 09:05:24 PM »
1) Again: it's getting stupid when you compare a defensive act with aggressive acts without any legitimation nor justification.

Well if I was indeed comparing a defensive act to an aggressive act I would provide a basis on which they could be compared. But the Crusades and the bombings are both aggressive acts. In no way is the Crusades into Jerusalem a defensive act. Your justification for it being defensive is that the Muslims(or the branch that invaded Europe) attacked Europe and took most of Spain and Portugal. Alright, so why did they continue from the peninsula and move to Jerusalem to further kill more Muslims(ones that for the most part had no part of the attack on Europe[some of the Muslims killed were women and children too]) and take back something which had fallen out of European hands hundreds of years before? You can not say, "Well it was ours 400 years ago and we decided to finally 'defend' it and take it back." That would be like the UK deciding that it wanted to take back the USA, India, a nice chunk of Africa. And Spain taking back almost all of South and Central America, and a nice chunk out of the land West of the Mississippi. If they tried to do that people would be in an uproar that those countries could be so warmongering. Why? Because it is considered in the past, ancient history if you will.

3) Indeed, take Christ...then take Mohammed.

First of, Christ was not the founder of the Christian faith. He was the role model it would be based off of, and almost all of his preachings as well. But so many people forget some interesting facts. A) Christ was not his last name. Its a title. It is Greek and it means Anointed one.(just a little info) B) The actual founder of Christianity were the Apostles; who were as human as Muhammad.  C)Most people forget that Jesus of Nazareth followed the faith of Judaism. D) Even Jesus had his slip ups.

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"On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts." (Mark 11:15-16)
Admittedly his intentions were good, but quite out of character for the Man of patience and caring. 

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35 He went a little farther. Then he fell to the ground. He prayed that, if possible, the hour might pass by him. 36 "Abba," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup of suffering away from me. But let what you want be done, not what I want." (Mark 14:35)

So even Jesus was reluctant to fulfill the grand plan of God. He still followed through with his wishes, but even Jesus had his human moments.

As for Muslims towards Xtianity and Judaism:
"Wahrlich, jene, die ungläubig sind unter dem Volk der Schrift (Juden und Christen) und die Götzendiener werden im Feuer der Dschahannam sein; ewig werden sie darin bleiben; diese sind die schlechtesten der Geschöpfe. (Sure 98:6)"

That means: Xtians and Jews are the worst of all creatures.
As I have said already: taqiyya allows a muslim to lie for the very sake of Islam to confuse the Kuffar (infidels).
Quoting some seemingly "nice" passages from the Quran without seeing how Islam really views the other religions is - as I have said earlier - a rather good tactic for confusion: The Trojan horse had to be presented asa gift of friendship in order to get into the city, no?

Its not exactly like the Trojan Horse if they let us know their view on other Religions. The trojan horse worked because they had no idea what was inside. If they had known they would never have taken it. Also it says it allows them to lie. Not that they must. Even Peter lied, when he denied knowing or being a part of the following of Jesus three times. Not to mention that even though it is the 9th Commandment, many if not all of Christians in today's world at one time or another lie.


There that should bring us somewhat back on track...or at least the track we have been on for about a week now.
“People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent.” ~Bob Dylan

"Had I not seen the Sun, I could have borne the shade" ~Emily Dickinson

“The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame.” ~Oscar Wilde

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”  ~Annie Dillard

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #168 on: September 19, 2007, 10:04:18 PM »
You believe Christ was a super-natural being? Where do you base Christ's super-abilities? Miracles?

Offline Cyadkuso

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #169 on: September 19, 2007, 10:51:42 PM »
You believe Christ was a super-natural being? Where do you base Christ's super-abilities? Miracles?

I never said he was a supernatural being. Super abilities? Where did that come from? My statements were based off of the Christian(I'm assuming that it is a general belief) belief that Jesus is the Son of God.
“People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent.” ~Bob Dylan

"Had I not seen the Sun, I could have borne the shade" ~Emily Dickinson

“The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame.” ~Oscar Wilde

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”  ~Annie Dillard

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #170 on: September 19, 2007, 10:55:24 PM »
the questions weren't aimed to you specifically, but you compare him to 'normal men' or 'human' are you saying he's not human? what i got the feeling from your text was that you were saying he was human. I don't really see the point where you are getting at if not challenging someone that believes he was super-human or had special abilities, I'm the son of my father too, but that doesn't make me Christ. Thank God.

Offline Cyadkuso

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #171 on: September 19, 2007, 11:52:10 PM »
lol, well I was taught in my Catholic School that Jesus was the Son of God, and because of that he was divine. And I was mainly arguing with Sal when he says to compare Jesus to Muhammad. Because it seemed to me that he was saying, "Look at Jesus who is forever perfect...and than look at Muhammad who is a horrible human being."
“People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent.” ~Bob Dylan

"Had I not seen the Sun, I could have borne the shade" ~Emily Dickinson

“The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame.” ~Oscar Wilde

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”  ~Annie Dillard

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #172 on: September 20, 2007, 03:27:13 AM »
i had that feeling too, but seems we won't be able to call him to reason in that matter :h: hey cool hypo smileys, look at the ears...anyway, I'm waiting for Saletsia to answer, he's just divine beacuse he's son of God or is there some mysterious super powers to be able to do Miracles?

Offline Cyadkuso

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #173 on: September 20, 2007, 03:44:55 AM »
I'm not quite sure. What I picked up was that the only way to do a miracle was to have the backing of God, and that he was working through that person by manifesting his will into a miracle. Now if you get into the Holy Trinity and is Jesus just divine or is he actually a part of God, than I'm not sure if it is Jesus doing the miracles or God working through him.

and of course, my favorite is the hippos holding the cookie sign   :hc:
“People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent.” ~Bob Dylan

"Had I not seen the Sun, I could have borne the shade" ~Emily Dickinson

“The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame.” ~Oscar Wilde

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”  ~Annie Dillard

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #174 on: September 20, 2007, 04:28:05 AM »
would rather a cookie monster...awwww, i missed those...

Offline Collatica

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #175 on: September 20, 2007, 01:27:17 PM »
Okay okay another question for you all.

Assuming you believe in God. Do you believe God is eternal or everlasting?

An eternal god always has, always will and currently does exist. Eternal god is transcendant, above and outside of time, and incapable with interaction with the world. How then, how can God be omnipotent? One of the defining characteristics of the judaeo-christian concept of God. An eternal god can see future, past and present. But then, we have no free will, for if god knows the future our future is clearly already determined. This is one of the biggest contradictions around, and is used to try and disprove the existence of God(s).

An everlasting god however, is inside of time, and has a beginning and an end, although these may be infinite. Everlasting god can interact with the world, with miracles, etc, as everlasting god can see past and present, but not the future. BUT then, how can God be omniscient, one of the defining characteristics of the judaeo-christian concepts of god? A god that cannot see the future cannot be all knowing, and thus another contradiction is raised.
Dux-Imperator Marcus IV
The Imperial Federated States of Collatica


Offline Cyadkuso

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #176 on: September 20, 2007, 02:52:03 PM »
Assuming you believe in God. Do you believe God is eternal or everlasting?

I don't really, I just like to debate. (or argue, take your pick :-P )



An eternal god always has, always will and currently does exist. Eternal god is transcendant, above and outside of time, and incapable with interaction with the world. How then, how can God be omnipotent? One of the defining characteristics of the judaeo-christian concept of God. An eternal god can see future, past and present. But then, we have no free will, for if god knows the future our future is clearly already determined. This is one of the biggest contradictions around, and is used to try and disprove the existence of God(s).

Why must an eternal God not be able to interact with the world? If he is, as considered in the Judaic-Christian faith, omnipotent could he not simply be powerful enough to interact with the world. Why if God knows the future do we not have free will? Could he not see the future and try to influence us to change it but still not directly change it? Could not the future be one of many paths, like a rope. There are hundreds of smaller strings that make up one of the strings that make up a rope. They could be be hundreds of different possibilities and God simply tries to guide us to those that he believes best for us.
“People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent.” ~Bob Dylan

"Had I not seen the Sun, I could have borne the shade" ~Emily Dickinson

“The books that the world calls immoral are books that show the world its own shame.” ~Oscar Wilde

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”  ~Annie Dillard

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #177 on: September 20, 2007, 05:35:58 PM »
i don't believe in 'a' God, like Judaic/Christian God, but i would say everlasting, if the universe reboots, so will God, so God =< Universe...

Offline Prydania

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #178 on: September 29, 2007, 11:24:20 PM »

"9:30 AND THE Jews say, "Ezra is God's son,"..."

The Qur'an denies the divinity of Jesus and criticizes the Christians several times in this fashion for that belief.  Same with the Jews, although I'm not sure where the allegation about Jews believing in Ezra as God's son comes from.  The source of this disagreement is the Islamic precept that God is one and has no equal, nor any kind of divine family.
Just thought I'd mention this, Jews don't believe that Ezra was G-d's son. Muslims adopted the Jewish belief that no one is G-d's equal. I'm not bashing Isalm of the Qur'an, I just thought I should point that out. The closest thing to a "son of G-d" in the Jewish faith is the Messiah, who we believe has yet to show up.

As for the whole "Muslims are evil" thing, I don't believe that at all. Islam, like every religion, has its fringe lunatics.
I don't judge all Christians on the likes of the Pat Robertson, and I would hate to be judged as a Jew based on the actions of my faith's nut jobs. Same goes for Islam. I'm not going to condemn every Muslim just because Osama and co. are perverting the faith to justify mass murder.

The way I see it is that Islam is going through the phase Christianity went through during the Crusades. All major religions have that phase. During the time of ancient Israel Jews forcibly converted non-Jewish semitics in what is now southern Israel (one of the last Kings of Israel, Herod the Great, was descended from one of these tribes).
Between 1095–1291 Christians went on the Crusades.
Now Islam is going through the same phase.
It makes sense that Islam, the youngest of the three Western faiths, is going through their "extremist" phase now.
About a thousand years in, both Judaism and Christianity experienced these bouts with extremism, before "calming down."
The Islamic calender states that we're in the 1420's, so the timing's about right for Islam to experience its bout with extremism. In time extremist Islam will be sidelined.

Offline Ess

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #179 on: September 30, 2007, 12:06:36 AM »
Excuse me if this has been posted, but does anyone have a problem with religion stemming from astrology? 
Check out:  http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

There are 3 parts, but the first part relates to this discussion.

I am not a believer in god or astrology, btw.  They were both a way for people to explain a world they knew not.