Religious Debates - come on in y'all!

[Eientei]

Did I speak of Iran in particular? Nej

As a Christian, I am bound to my faith and have to oppose Islam since it is designed to be against Judaism and Xtianity (read the Quran).

The Quran literally offends and insults Judaism and Xtianity. So why not be against that then?

One of the first things taught in a Christian (at least in my Catholic school) was that you should be tolerant of all people and religions. "Do unto others as you wish done unto you." So by your declaration of being a Christian you are bound by your faith to be tolerant towards Islam. Not oppose it.

And where in the Qur'an does it state its against Judaism and Christianity? (I actually dint know if its in there that's why I'm asking)

At-Tauba (The Repentance)

9:30 AND THE Jews say, "Ezra is God's son," while the Christians say, "The Christ is God's son." Such are the sayings which they utter with their mouths, following in spirit assertions made in earlier times by people who denied the truth! [They deserve the imprecation:] "May God destroy them!" How perverted are their minds!

The Qur'an denies the divinity of Jesus and criticizes the Christians several times in this fashion for that belief.  Same with the Jews, although I'm not sure where the allegation about Jews believing in Ezra as God's son comes from.  The source of this disagreement is the Islamic precept that God is one and has no equal, nor any kind of divine family.

On the other hand, the Qur'an also brings up the fate of Jews and Christians who follow the precepts of their faiths:

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

So a proper Muslim believes that good Jews and Christians are saved, along with good Muslims, on the Judgment Day.

A lot of controversy comes from certain passages in the Qur'an that were presumably meant as commands to Muhammad about what to do to solve his most immediate problems.  These are the passages that people like Osama bin Laden tear out of context to justify their hatred and bloodlust.

[Saletsia]

Have you ever seen any Christian start blowing Muslims up simply because he does not believe in what muslims say?

lol, The Crusades. I brought it up before, but it stands here. Maybe not blowing them up, but taking back cities belonging to Muslims. Massacring the Muslims that were in no way related to the ones that invaded Europe except for the fact that they shared the same relgion. Killing the women and children of the Muslims in the city...so theres the killing innocents for what they believe in. And yes those Christians were radicals, just like the ones blowing themselves up are radicals.

Did I speak of Iran in particular? Nej

As a Christian, I am bound to my faith and have to oppose Islam since it is designed to be against Judaism and Xtianity (read the Quran).

The Quran literally offends and insults Judaism and Xtianity. So why not be against that then?

One of the first things taught in a Christian (at least in my Catholic school) was that you should be tolerant of all people and religions. "Do unto others as you wish done unto you." So by your declaration of being a Christian you are bound by your faith to be tolerant towards Islam. Not oppose it.

And where in the Qur'an does it state its against Judaism and Christianity? (I actually dint know if its in there that's why I'm asking)

And on last quote from the generally respected Gandhi

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

1) Again: it's getting stupid when you compare a defensive act with aggressive acts without any legitimation nor justification.

2) Tolerance? Tolerance is NOT Acceptance which so many people do NOT understand: I can tolerate a Satanist, a muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu etc. BUT I need not accept what they say or believe in.

3) Indeed, take Christ...then take Mohammed.

As for Muslims towards Xtianity and Judaism:
"Wahrlich, jene, die ungläubig sind unter dem Volk der Schrift (Juden und Christen) und die Götzendiener werden im Feuer der Dschahannam sein; ewig werden sie darin bleiben; diese sind die schlechtesten der Geschöpfe. (Sure 98:6)"

That means: Xtians and Jews are the worst of all creatures.
As I have said already: taqiyya allows a muslim to lie for the very sake of Islam to confuse the Kuffar (infidels).
Quoting some seemingly "nice" passages from the Quran without seeing how Islam really views the other religions is - as I have said earlier - a rather good tactic for confusion: The Trojan horse had to be presented asa gift of friendship in order to get into the city, no?

Comparable to Hitler again: "Wir wollen den Frieden!" = we want peace
So he's good now because he seems to have said something good?

Compare the life of the person who had the Quran written to its rather "positive" contents....

[Delfos]

yes and Bush said invading Iraq was to maintain peace...right, no WMD or connections to Al Qaeda...It depends on your point of view, you can't just decide what's for the peace what's not. Don't forget the frustration of Middle Easterners for loosing land to Israel (the banned men from the holy land), and being manipulated by 'the west'. And still are, it's like, we let African do their revolutions, but we keep messing with Middle-East? Why do we need to mess there? oh right, oil...OK...

[Eientei]

Any particular reason you're quoting a German translation of the Qur'an?  Again, I'm just curious.

[Delfos]

he's German a bought a German edition? I got Portuguese Ed.

[Bender1968]

I tried to not to read this post because discussions about religion always turn heated, but I read something that hits me at the core of my being and upbringing.

As a Christian, I am bound to my faith and have to oppose Islam since it is designed to be against Judaism and Xtianity (read the Quran).

As a Christian you are bound to be more than tolerant of others.  Its the same reason when Christ said to forgive someone 70x7 times.  What that means is someone must wrong wrong you personally 490 times before you can say I can't forgive you any longer.  If you're still around someone that has done you wrong that many times, there are other issues at work.  Bound by your faith?  Where does it say in the Bible go out and kill, slaughter, oppress, beat into submission, etc. those who do not follow the teachings of Christ?  What the real problem is, you get some people that are easily swayed by someone else and saying God or Allah or whoever "wants you to do it".  Its the same thing when an abortion clinic gets blown up or a doctor killed and the killer says he was doing God's work. 

[Eientei]

he's German a bought a German edition? I got Portuguese Ed.

Oh, I didn't know Saletsia was German.  I was wondering because we're debating (sort of) in English.  Apologies.

[Delfos]

well he should try to translate instead of quoting German if he's trying to explain in English, but i have nothing against German quoting, would certainly help this forum to reach a multi-cultural achievement...oh right, everything must be in English, even Gordon Brown wants the foreign workers to know English...weird attempts to control immigration...but you don't have immigration problems in the Forum, do you?

[Eientei]

Well, it's no problem.  It's a little strange to break out into languages other than the one primarily being used, but for quoting, it doesn't make much difference.

On the other hand, the debate's gotten pretty bad when we have to resort to Hitler comparisons.  How many times have you heard someone compare someone else to Hitler, or some idea to Nazism, in a debate?  A whole lot of times.  All you really achieve with a Hitler comparison is showing that you don't have much idea of historical perspective.  At least, that's how it is in American debate.  Maybe Sal can clarify his argument a little better.

[Bender1968]

Eientei please you have to be mindful and respectful that these forums are made up of people from other countries as well as our own.  I'm not trying to flame you, but I'm begging you not to turn into the stereo typical "ugly American".  We're hated over the globe because of our arrogance.

[Eientei]

Eientei please you have to be mindful and respectful that these forums are made up of people from other countries as well as our own.  I'm not trying to flame you, but I'm begging you not to turn into the stereo typical "ugly American".  We're hated over the globe because of our arrogance.

Bender, I'm not trying to be the ugly American.  I'm just talking about how debate goes where I'm from and how it might compare with debate elsewhere.  Isn't that the definition of healthy debate?  If I end up offending anyone because of it, it's not because I'm trying to be a chauvinist.

In this case I feel I have to bring up the subject anyway, because some of the Saletsia's problems with Islam seem much more European than American.  The US obviously has a complicated relationship with Muslim immigrants and nations, but we don't have the sheer number of Muslim immigrants that many European states do, nor do we have the same problems regarding identity here that people living in Britain, Germany, France etc. face today.

[Delfos]

yes Hitler is an inhuman beast! and can't be compared to other humans!

where were we? ah yes, true 'your' arrogance is world wide known. Anyway before this turns into American-leaves-the-shell or swear-at-America topic, i would like to suggest to keep on topic, this well lighted debate started in a Blame-Christians, then Blame-Jews, then Blame-Muslims and i don't think Blame-Americans fit on the sequence, neither Blame-Hitler. Sure blame whoever you want, i liked Saletsia statements about Muslims and Al Qumran, thought it was too extreme, anyway defending it's too extreme or anyone defending Muslims exclusively? thanks in advance.

[Bender1968]

Delfos, you are right let us get back on track.  I think what we all detest is the extremism that happens on all religions.  Right now we blame all muslims for terrorism instead of the extremists.  Same thing with the crusades and eventually it'll be some other religion. 

[Eientei]

yes Hitler is an inhuman beast! and can't be compared to other humans!

where were we? ah yes, true 'your' arrogance is world wide known. Anyway before this turns into American-leaves-the-shell or swear-at-America topic, i would like to suggest to keep on topic, this well lighted debate started in a Blame-Christians, then Blame-Jews, then Blame-Muslims and i don't think Blame-Americans fit on the sequence, neither Blame-Hitler. Sure blame whoever you want, i liked Saletsia statements about Muslims and Al Qumran, thought it was too extreme, anyway defending it's too extreme or anyone defending Muslims exclusively? thanks in advance.

No, I mean SO many people compare X and Y and Z to Hitler that about 99 percent of the Hitler comparisons don't make a bit of sense.  He's the first guy who comes to many people's minds when they think "EVIL", so it's only natural.

I think we're all badly misunderstanding each other.  Never mind.

[Collatica]

i would like to suggest to keep on topic, this well lighted debate started in a Blame-Christians, then Blame-Jews, then Blame-Muslims and i don't think Blame-Americans fit on the sequence, neither Blame-Hitler. Sure blame whoever you want.

Blame religion.