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Author Topic: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!  (Read 15493 times)

Offline Allama

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2007, 02:41:58 PM »
Science is not a religion, because with science you need proof for it to be accepted. With religion, you just need to spout out some crap and people believe it because some spirit supposedly said it.

How can you prove something you cannot see?  Once you have observed every possible instance of a given phenomenon in all of space and time, you have proven a scientific theory to be factual.  Until then, you are making an assumption on faith; faith in the orderly, observable nature of the universe, that absolutely cannot be proven.


P.S. I wrote a post about this a couple days ago that I now cannot find.  I would almost swear it was in this topic.  If someone locates it, please let me know.

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2007, 04:23:12 AM »
Well, the way I see it, theistic religion assigns God(s) powers that people don't believe they possess.  As people gain less and less control over what they produce, they assign God(s) that control.  People have the capacity to remake the world.  Everyone knows that by now.  And yet the still continue to assign that power to God(s).  Why?  Because though we can remake the world, most people don't decide how it is to be remade, nor do they reap the fruits of that remodeling.

God(s) become unnecessary when people realize their full productive capacity, and are able to take full advantage of it.  Till then...

?

I'd rather say that over history, we've assigned God less willful control over the world, if not less power.  Take the trials of ordeal practiced in Europe back in the Dark Ages - people actually expected God to intervene for the accused if he or she was innocent, by preventing their hand from being burned by boiling water, or keeping the accused's feet from being burned by hot coals, etc.  We also used to attribute natural phenomena we just couldn't explain to God expressing his pleasure or displeasure over something or other.

Congratulations on completely missing the point.  The point is not that human beliefs evolve over time, because they do.  It's that the more our productive capacity increases, and the less control people have over the fruits of production, the more productive power we assign to God.  Notice that I say "productive power," rather than "power of intervention."  Productive power is the capacity to create new things.  In the oldest religions, for example the Sumerian, Greek and Egyptian, the Gods (or the chief god) and the Universe emerged out of Chaos at the same time.  Gods then created humans.  Only later was God assigned the power to create the world as well as its inhabitants, a power most people believe God holds to this day.

Quote
I'm not quite sure what you mean by humanity's power to "remake the world" either, unless you mean we basically give up trying to improve our lives when we start to put our trust in some deity instead.
Humans are productive creatures.  Over the last hundred years, our productive power has greatly increased, so much that we are able to change the shape of coastlines, to create artificial mountains and valleys, to eliminate and then recreate forests, and even to contemplate terraforming other worlds.  That's what I mean by our power to remake the world.

However, due to the nature of our society at the present time, most people don't have a hand in deciding how the world is to be reshaped.  Only a few people have that authority.  The majority of people, because the decisions are out of their hands, are willing to assign the power of creation to God, willfully ignoring the fact that it resides in their fellows, and may be seized from their fellows.

Better?


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Offline Eientei

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2007, 04:53:42 AM »
Congratulations on completely missing the point. 

Oh, come on, there's no need to be like that.

The point is not that human beliefs evolve over time, because they do.  It's that the more our productive capacity increases, and the less control people have over the fruits of production, the more productive power we assign to God.  Notice that I say "productive power," rather than "power of intervention."  Productive power is the capacity to create new things.  In the oldest religions, for example the Sumerian, Greek and Egyptian, the Gods (or the chief god) and the Universe emerged out of Chaos at the same time.  Gods then created humans.  Only later was God assigned the power to create the world as well as its inhabitants, a power most people believe God holds to this day.

Fair enough.  In that sense, I suppose the further some people are removed from the direct fruit of their labor, the more uncertainty they have about their fate and the more of it they entrust to God.  You have to realize that "production" here is also a little abstract as a concept, since you seem to be talking about creation on all sorts of scales.

Humans are productive creatures.  Over the last hundred years, our productive power has greatly increased, so much that we are able to change the shape of coastlines, to create artificial mountains and valleys, to eliminate and then recreate forests, and even to contemplate terraforming other worlds.  That's what I mean by our power to remake the world.

However, due to the nature of our society at the present time, most people don't have a hand in deciding how the world is to be reshaped.  Only a few people have that authority.  The majority of people, because the decisions are out of their hands, are willing to assign the power of creation to God, willfully ignoring the fact that it resides in their fellows, and may be seized from their fellows.

Better?

Your idea is much clearer now, I think.  I don't agree that God doesn't have creative power simply because individuals are able take the power of production into their own hands, though.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2007, 09:27:13 AM »
and i wouldn't expect GC with another theory: "Religion is the opium of the people"

Offline Bialy Rycesz

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2007, 02:45:30 AM »
I was raised in a staunchly Catholic family and I believe religion is a way for an Intelligent minority to control an ignorant majority..a way to make people believe they were dying for the right causes,a excuse to start wars..please no one hate me for this I do not hold religion against anyone I believe in free thought and was just putting down the simplistic theory I created myself...I love you all no matter what.... :) :'(
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 02:47:17 AM by Bialy Rycesz »
"The threat is more powerful than its execution"-Emmanuel Lasker
"My vengeance is awake and she is a falcon that slumbers not till fully gorged"-Ivanhoe
"Come,the croaking raven doth bellow for revenge"-Hamlet
"It is always better to sacrifice your opponents men"-Savielly Tartakower
"Those who forget the past are comdemned to repeat it"-George Santayana
"In every enterprise consider where you would come out"-Publilius Syrus
"Cowards die many times before their deaths;The valiant never taste of death but once"-Julius Caesar

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2007, 03:23:27 AM »
sweet. That's control, that's what catholic became even before the collapse of the roman empire. control the population. More than a third of the world's population paying taxes to an empire, empire collapses, where does the money go? oooo greedy popes! i cannot even imagine how much money they can have.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2007, 03:26:53 AM »
forgot to underline, catholicism

seems you only know Catholicism, my advice to you, read about other religions. It's not all about control, they go everywhere, physics, astronomy, philosophy most of all, but basically: moral guidance and ethics. That's my view, and i know quite a few.

Offline Bialy Rycesz

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2007, 04:06:19 AM »
Me too I should've been more specific in that I'm not an Atheist but more of a karma chameleon :'(sorry for bringing Boy George anywhere near this thread....ouch....don't have smiley shooting self in head....I believe that all good you do will return to you in some way or form,and I mean to animals and humans..I 'am with you on the philosophy aspect but I'm not well booked on it so I just went with what I knew most about....and I'm not close-minded at all I give all things a chance ;)
"The threat is more powerful than its execution"-Emmanuel Lasker
"My vengeance is awake and she is a falcon that slumbers not till fully gorged"-Ivanhoe
"Come,the croaking raven doth bellow for revenge"-Hamlet
"It is always better to sacrifice your opponents men"-Savielly Tartakower
"Those who forget the past are comdemned to repeat it"-George Santayana
"In every enterprise consider where you would come out"-Publilius Syrus
"Cowards die many times before their deaths;The valiant never taste of death but once"-Julius Caesar

Offline Khablan

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2007, 04:37:51 AM »
Well, I don't have any with guns, but you could always borrow this one, Bialy. 
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2007, 05:17:51 AM »
 :o ??? ??? ??? :o

Offline Bialy Rycesz

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2007, 05:24:13 AM »
that would work,thank you!!!
"The threat is more powerful than its execution"-Emmanuel Lasker
"My vengeance is awake and she is a falcon that slumbers not till fully gorged"-Ivanhoe
"Come,the croaking raven doth bellow for revenge"-Hamlet
"It is always better to sacrifice your opponents men"-Savielly Tartakower
"Those who forget the past are comdemned to repeat it"-George Santayana
"In every enterprise consider where you would come out"-Publilius Syrus
"Cowards die many times before their deaths;The valiant never taste of death but once"-Julius Caesar

Offline Towlie

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2007, 12:40:34 AM »
i think that the bs that religion wants to make you believe first why would god want you to live your life and be happy. why would this kind forgiving god want you to live in constant fear of being damned to hell and to spend every living second of your life focused on that? i have a belief of god, but i havent shown up in church since easter. i dont think that that makes you better at being religious. and the bible is being taken too literal. the bible is to be a guideline to live your life like dont steal be kind to everyone. that is my take
Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink. --Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it. --His reply
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. --Henny Youngman

Offline Bialy Rycesz

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2007, 01:49:13 AM »
you are exactly right Towlie,those insane fanatics are ridiculous! If they want to believe that god wants us to sit down here in fear,and I believe they are fools for living such a meek lifestyle,you do not have to be poor to appease god nor rich,you just have to be a good person!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 04:23:47 AM by Bialy Rycesz »
"The threat is more powerful than its execution"-Emmanuel Lasker
"My vengeance is awake and she is a falcon that slumbers not till fully gorged"-Ivanhoe
"Come,the croaking raven doth bellow for revenge"-Hamlet
"It is always better to sacrifice your opponents men"-Savielly Tartakower
"Those who forget the past are comdemned to repeat it"-George Santayana
"In every enterprise consider where you would come out"-Publilius Syrus
"Cowards die many times before their deaths;The valiant never taste of death but once"-Julius Caesar

Offline Myroria

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2007, 01:53:16 AM »
Quote
i cannot even imagine how much money they can have.

The richest single organization in the entire world. This includes corporations. Harvard University is a distant second.

And to expand on Rycesz and towlie's posts:

God loves you, unless...

You're homosexual
Athiest
Agnostic
Protestant
Muslim
Jewish
Catholic (see Protestant)
You breathe
You think the Big Bang is reasonable
You think we evolved from apes
You invent the telescope (God no longer will send you to hell if you invent the telescope, He changed his mind. Accept it.)
etc.
etc.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 02:00:25 AM by Libertarian Monarchy of Myroria »
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Towlie

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2007, 03:03:52 AM »
And to expand on Rycesz and towlie's posts:

God loves you, unless...

You're homosexual
Athiest
Agnostic
Protestant
Muslim
Jewish
Catholic (see Protestant)
You breathe
You think the Big Bang is reasonable
You think we evolved from apes
You invent the telescope (God no longer will send you to hell if you invent the telescope, He changed his mind. Accept it.)
etc.
etc.

you cannot be remotely serious about that i know that there is things about being a homo in there but only a complete moron would go to a t
hence the verbiage guideline not rules.
 how you came up with that list is beyond me. my intended words are that any one that god loves everyone no matter what your beliefs are as long as you are a good person
Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink. --Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it. --His reply
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. --Henny Youngman