Just another political arguing thread

[Khablan]

Don't get me started, Soly, or my son will start calling me paranoid again.  He thinks it's a bit silly when I say things like just because a politician says it doesn't make it so; that politicians have hidden agendas; that they succeed by being the most convincing and allying themselves with those who can help to increase their own power; that it is not as uncommon as one might think for illegal/unethical means to be used in furthering that agenda and that for every such case that we actually hear of, there are far more who are simply better at hiding their tracks.  He considers that seeing boogeymen around every corner.

[Delfos]

London is the capital city of the UK, Delfos.  That same London which the UN describes as "the most cosmopolitan city on Earth".  Why stay out of the Euro?  We have the lowest unemployment, the highest growth and the highest wages in Europe - that's why Britain stayed out of the Euro.  It isn't hatred of Europe, it's the fact that joining the Euro zone would make us poorer in the opinion of our top economists.  Hey - they haven't been wrong these past seven years, have they?

Yes also consider xenophobic in some occasions *pulls celebrity bigbrother card*.

and yes, you stayed out of euro, make you poorer? it's making you richer, that's not the point of being in a union, if you'r in an union you got to stick with it. We're supposed to build Europe together. you're of EU money goes for UK, what for if they don't even have the euro? if you want to be part of EU just stick with us.

together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together together

[Cartwrightia]

Hey, I think Britain would love it if there were more togetherness.  Right now, Britain contibutes the most per GDP to the EU than any other country - 4p of every £1income tax goes straight to Europe.  If you look at the amount Britain pays against how much it get back in funding, it is the second biggest net contributor, losing E4.6bn per year.

Portugal, on the other hand is the third biggest net receiver, paying virtually nothing towards the EU and getting loads back - gaining E3.1bn per year.  So sure, let's build it together, Delfos.  I'll tell you how much tax I'm paying to the EU this year, and we'll go halves.  Deal?

[The Empire]

Sweden is in the same position as the UK but at a smaller scale as there are just 9 million of us. I think we would have been better off staying out of the corrupt bureaucracy that is the EU. We would have been best off if we had reformed a Scandinavian or Nordic union instead, the central and south European economic culture is too different and too focused on greed without regard for others to mix well with ours.

[Delfos]

true Portugal was the poorest country in EU until the eastern european countries join up. As you see, to build it together some must loose, others win, that's what union is for. You say we almost dont pay tax to EU, you saying about percentages or brute money? Because im sure we pay the same as any other, we'r just poorer. We contribute with other things, we're one of the largest producers of clean energy, we might become the largest producer of bio-diesel in EU, our constitution is one of the most advanced (contributing for EU integrity, our constitution is more advanced than the EU constitution that is waiting for approval), and our bank systems are also one of the most advanced of the world. Blame the banks, our banks are amasingly pimps, they got like 7/10 families in Portugal in debt to Banks, i dont know the numbers im throwing a wild guess, but i know it's more than half. We have -0,3% of budget ^^ thats why we receive so much from EU, and that's why we're enshorting the percentage.

Still there's not much excuse to be off the euro, you'r economy is great? if it was managed by the euro we would be even better, maybe that difference between PT and UK wouldn't be so large. As i said, the only profit comes from UK being part of EU and having 0,60 £(whereabouts) per €uro.

[The Empire]

You mean 0,60 Euro per £? It goes around 9 SKR on a Euro but 14 SKR on a GB£

[Cartwrightia]

Yes, we are the best off in Europe Delfos.  Why should we give that up and experience the economic stagnation which every country in the Eurozone has experienced?  You talk about strengthening the Union.  Britain is contributing troops and an HQ to the new European Army when it gets going.  Britain is the country which adheres to the largest number of laws and directives from the EU.  I am actually a europhile, by and large I like the Union, although it does have some major things wrong with it.  Yet again, it is your ill-informed opinions which are pissing me off.

[Delfos]

ill-informed? pissing you off? why should i agree with you? if we all agreed to each other this was a perfect world, i would agree with you if i didn't thought you were wrong. Gladly i have the right to think you're wrong.

EU army? thought we had enough armies already.

I didn't say UK doesn't contribute, or Britain as you refer. I say when you're in an union you gotta stick with it, we all make sacrifices. Do you know how badly people are payed in here to rise the government's budget? The government employees have frozen degree promotions because of that for like what, 10 years? i bet even your policemen earn more than 10 teachers here all together. There was countries that sacrificed for this, why cant UK? Scared of a little shake in your economy? Where those British balls have gone? I still say, UK is the only one profiting in not having the euro, we're getting deeper, i shouldn't blame UK. But i do say UK would help alot. (I'm actually saying UK has better economy than EU? I'm flattering for god sake.) Now don't call me names, doesn't look good on you.

Oh and it's another way to say, UK isn't helping €uro. Not saying UK isn't helping EU. See the difference?

[Talmann]

As an outsider, I'd have to say that Britain has balls, but they also have brains. Giving up a superoir currency is stupid. And it won't necessarily help anyone by joining the euro. In fact, it might make things worse by creating welfare states where Britain and wealthier states work hard while other states "work" and get paid for doing next to nothing.

And, like Khab said, you should stop putting insults in your posts as it detracts from your ultimate point.

[tak]

Talking about EU"togetherness", it is exactly the current beneficiaries who refused to be 'together' with the new entrants. For example, with similar standard of living, the Czechs are getting much less from the EU than the Portugese.
For this less equal treatment, the eastern bloc (except Baltics States) are getting more and more sceptical about the union.

[Khablan]

Now, I'm barely familiar with the EU, so I'm mainly going by what I'm reading here.  But it seems to me that if a country that currently benefits the EU without being a member, in part due to its flourishing economy, and if joining would ultimately hurt its economy, then it would make no sense either for that country or for the EU.  If money is tighter, then they would no longer be able to donate to the EU on the same scale as it did before.  It would be disadvantageous to both.  The purpose of any union is to strength its members.  That doesn't sound as though it would be the case here.  Again, that's just my impression from what's being said in this thread. 

[Delfos]

true, but we'r trying to fix our budget anyway.

sacrifices?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_economic_tests

"While UK flexibility had improved, they could not be confident that it is sufficient." <-i bet all the other issues would go away if this would be solved when you entered the euro. As you see, in the begining there was not much difference from other european countries.

And about czech republic skepticism, we had that too. Anyway, their deficit is above 3%, plus i think they need the euro for 2 or 3 years to get as much aid as we have. Wouldn't it be great to get aid from EU just for joining?

GBP got more distance from EUR from time, it wasnt that different int he begining, so their economy would grow inside EU, would benifit everyone in EU. Now i must agree with most of you, wouldn't do any good to UK joining the euro now, but you must agree that eve if they would join the euro now, the euro would jump quite a bit, and probably it would get better in time. rather is not helping the €uro to have such close partner with such monetary difference, but not being part of the EMU doesn't harm much anyone. Not being part of the €uro had problems sometimes, like that crisis with industries having too high prices for EU countries, they would rather to buy fromt he competition, Although i cant remember that well. Anyway, UK always had skepticism towards an EMU, and might ever have.

What the eastern europeans want is easy money :p we all do.

[tak]

Easy money?
What they are foreseeing is that for not long later, even their contribution to the EU is channeled to the poorer members of the old ones. No current beneficiaries is going to surrender their current concessions. Whle the east will still be booming with their open markets and flexible business environment, the poorer old EU members will keep sucking blood from the EU!

[Delfos]

can you give me numbers of that? from what i know, every eastern European countries will boost economies with EU. People normally forget the difference between numbers and percentages, that's why Luxembourg is completely different from the others. We had strong deficit for 1 year, i think it would be the 1st, because we had just left a dictatorship, things were still in chaos.







this shows, even in debt, we're growing, means helping EU. Give me numbers of Czech Republic so we can compare.

[tak]

Knowing only conversation Czech, I won't go thru all troubles to get those Czech numbers. All I know is that the Czech has not gone out of deficit for years.
But the argument about the number/percentage is meaningless - Czech and Protugal have similar standard of living (the reason I used as example). Yet, Portugal is being a much bigger share or concession compared to Czech, and that is not going to change.
Another example would be that only few western bloc countries allow citizens from the eastern blocs to work freely now, and that include the UK. So if it is the "togetherness" you are advocating, the UK is even more involved than many other Eurozone members!