Gun Control

[Delfos]

Prove to me, with evidence and research, that illegalize handguns will decrease deaths. Oh, wait, I already provided sources that point to the contrary.

right, Prove to me, with evidence and research, that legalise handguns will decrease deaths. Oh, wait, you can't. Dont take the point elsewhere, europe doesnt allow civilians to have handguns, it comes on the news rarely when shots are fired: Gangs against Police in big cities, no deaths; guy is murdered in gas station(oh wait..that was with a knife...); National Guard shoots escaping outlaws, murders 1 by 'accident'...huge fight because the police shouldnt be able to kill people, so they should not use firearms. A month later the National Guard receives electric firearms. Thing is, the guy that got killed was in a vehicle almost ramming the National Guard, Electric guns wouldnt solve that, but at least the guy wouldnt be killed. 'Oh so he could ram into a National Guard, probably kill him, but the NGuard cant shoot at him, because he shouldnt be killed?' In fact he wasnt going to ram him, but anyway, he was almost going to. The point is, yes, when you enlist the army or the police or the national guard, you expect danger, you will fight for the law, not for yourself, if he dies in 'combat', he was and is performing his duty. Law and Order are imperatives in a civilized society, not giving guns to everyone.

Besides, Myroria even said why the 2nd am exists. Nothing to do with shooting criminals, if you could just keep your guns safe in the basement until anyone performed a revolution or whatever against the people, the world would be a better place. You cannot renegade the power USA has in controling this things, USA is one of the 2 only countries that didnt signed kyoto, and is the most polluent nation of them, this power goes for gun control or human rights raping. None of those huge problems have been even thought of being solved in US.

If you can keep your machineguns in your home without killing anybody, excellent, the problem is that with USA that doesnt happen.

[Ryazania]

If you would actually research the information I provided in my first post, you would have already seen I provided proof.

And Myroria reiterated my point about the 2nd Amendment, and I'm not talking about it at the moment. I am talking about the effectiveness of illegalizing handguns in the UNITED STATES, not Europe mind you.

[The Empire]

If handguns were illegalized in the US, the gun-related deaths would probably stay on the same level for a series of years before the number of seized and destroyed illegal/unregistered handguns has reached a high enough total to be noticed on the black market, then gun-related deaths will start to decrease.
An option would also be to place extreme taxes on handgun-calibre ammunition to reduce the ammount of ammo in circulation. A plus on that is that criminals will be forced to reload used ammo, increasing the risks of critical malfunctions in their weapons and decreasing the effectiveness of their ammo considderably at the same time.

[Cartwrightia]

As I pointed out in my post, your first post Ryaz is nothing more than lies, damn lies and statistics.  You obviously do need an argument to fall back on, I would suggest it isn't the one proposed in your first post.

[Delfos]

hey, glad americans have Michael Moore

[Ryazania]

That fat sack of shit? He doesn't deserve to be called an American. I am all for questioning the government and its policies, but I'll be damned before I let someone insult my country.

[Cartwrightia]

So much for pluralism, eh Ryaz?

[Ryazania]

Edit: Lol, my mistake. I'm not functioning today.

[Cartwrightia]

Get a dictionary.  Pluralism=a democracy in which everyone has their own right to their own opinion.  OED: "toleration or acceptance of the coexistence of differing views, values, cultures, etc. "

I'm sure I've seen you write "I detest what you say but..." before, how about living up to it?

[Ryazania]

I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to say it, I'm just saying he shouldn't qualify as an American

I really can't live up to it because there is no situation in which to employ it. My government doesn't restrict any type of (peaceful) protest or speech.

[Delfos]

Michael Moore's movies are mostly documentaries, if you notice, it's rare he does a remark of his own. Most of the affirmations are brought from studies, although he questions himself alot during the movies. It's his way, or are you saying "Inconvenient Truth" is a fiction?

[Barceleroth]

If handguns were illegalized in the US, the gun-related deaths would probably stay on the same level for a series of years before the number of seized and destroyed illegal/unregistered handguns has reached a high enough total to be noticed on the black market, then gun-related deaths will start to decrease.
An option would also be to place extreme taxes on handgun-calibre ammunition to reduce the ammount of ammo in circulation. A plus on that is that criminals will be forced to reload used ammo, increasing the risks of critical malfunctions in their weapons and decreasing the effectiveness of their ammo considderably at the same time.

Empire, I'm glad you put the time and thought into compiling this scenario, but I'm afraid it's highly flawed.  In reality, when handguns become illegal in the US, they become only available on the black market.  Well, duh, right?  But tell me, who is involved in the black market?  Gangsters, drug-dealers, people who don't obey laws... the same people we don't want with guns in their hands.  By you admitting that we will never be able to completely destroy the black market, you're accepting that your theory is useless.  And of course, history shows that in every country, in every age, there was a black market.  That's reality.  No one's perfect.  And certainly no entire society is perfect.  We can also see through history that no commodity, no matter how illegal, could be kept off the black market.  Look at the drug market of today: if authorities can't keep drugs off the street, how are they going to do any better with handguns, especially considering that handguns aren't consumable (in the economic sense of the word)?

So, we do know that there will always be a black market.  We also know that as soon as handguns become illegal, they will become a prime comodity in this market.  This equals "bad guys" having handguns, and law-abiding citizens going without.  And what is the harm in this?  There is no better example than the Laws of Nature: a predator will only exert enough effort in securing its prey as it thinks will reward it in the end.  This is self-explainable: the predator will always go after the prey who offers the least resistance, and thus requires the least effort.  Our society contains similar "predators," those who will ignore the law and hurt and deprive the innocent for their own selfish motives.  Just as water will seek its lowest level, these 'predators' will sadly always go after those those who offer the least resistance.  

Taking all this into account, do you think a burglar will attempt to break into houses in a neighborhood that is known to have armed home-owners?  I highly doubt it.  Home invaders will "case" their targets thoroughly in most cases, and they will definitely want to know whether they could be dealing with an armed home-owner in a worst-case scenario.  

Facts, statistics, and common sense proove that taking guns away from one side and giving them to the other won't prevent bloodshed.  Because there will always be the law-abiders and the lawless, and government in reality can only control the actions of the former, gun-control proponents are technically fighting for the benefit of the drug dealers, murderers, home invaders, etc., by rendering the law-abiding citizens defenseless.

Furthermore, this right we are discussing, the right of the people to bear arms, is just that: a RIGHT.  If only for this reason, I am not willing to surrender it to the outstretched arms of nanny government.  I feel extreme pity for those of you who live in Europe, or elsewhere around the globe, who cannot understand how we Americans can hold a Constitutional right in such high regard and esteem.  But it is exactly that difference that makes the USA the greatest nation on earth.  We live by principles, fight for principles, and die for principles.  If any of you feel that holding high regard for words on a page is senseless, then you obviously have never felt the true exhiliration of freedom.  I take my rights seriously, and if you don't, well, that's your decision.

Please note, by being pro-gun, I am not trying to force everyone to go buy a gun and sleep with it at night.  I am only saying that I think this is something that government should not concern itself with any more than it already has, especially if it means limiting the rights of the non-problematic portion of society, the sect that will actually live by the law.  

[The Empire]

No, my scenario is far from useless. Home owners could still be armed (but not with pistols) and thus the point you try to make saying they are defenceless is completly void. Also, you don't adress the fact that my scenario stretches over a vast ammount of time, it will probably be at least a decade before there are so few guns left in the black market that it gives noticable results.
And though a gun isn't "consumable" it's far easier to cut off the supply to the black market as you need a hell of a lot more resources to manufacture a pistol with up to a hundred moving metal parts than to grow weed, thus, you need a professional automated factory to build most guns and to stop that source wouldn't be hard. That would lead to a significant quality decrease in the guns availiable to criminals in the long run and leading to more critical malfunctions, especially when coupled with re-loaded ammo that's going to put a big dent in the lethality for people on the wrong end while increasing the risks for the shooter of blowing his hand off or being seriously injured by his own firearm.

House burglaries are mostly conducted by day when everyone is at work.

And when it comes to the greatest nation on earth, the US is far from it. In my eyes, the US is nothing more than an uncivilized, greedy nation with barbarian practices and a high tech level being used to hold more or less the rest of the world hostage while robbing the planet of a vastly larger part of it's resources than what they are entitled to.
Hell, you havn't even had a semblance of democracy since the presidential candates could fund their own election campaigns in entirety. Since then, you have had nothing more than a corporate oligarchy, just like Russia today. Differences are mainly population and Russia not pretending to be acting for any "greater good" thus being more honest.

[Delfos]

what is in the black market is sold by those people. the problem is that, since buying weapons is legal in USA, they go create blackmarket elsewhere. If guns were illegal, is far more difficult, even for drug dealers and gangsters and all that, to get a gun. In matter of a decade the guns would decrease alot, also the gun related mortality. I would take time, but it's the only logical way, you must illegalise 1st guns that go above the required for protections, only small handguns could be purchased, everything else would be illegal, is that against your 2nd whatever law? is that against the 'protection' or 'self-defense' theory? no. After that you just get them illegal and confiscate the weapons. Anyone with small guns cant make such wreck when if becomes illegal, only form of getting other weapons is to go to blackmarket. Ofc what we see as blackmarket is open day market in US, do you know how difficult is to buy weapons on an european blackmarket? you put your life at risk, enough at risk that people dont even think about. It's easier to steal a gun.

[The Empire]

Delfos, you are missing the point, it's small guns that are the problem because they are easy to conceal and can be used without warning, something which is almost impossible with a rifle.
Second, I'm not advocating guns, I'm advocating a compromise and I've never been to the US.