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Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 12307 times)

Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2007, 05:21:06 PM »
Yes, but I still advocate that the fewer guns there are in a society, the better, especially when it comes to handguns or even small arms in general (everything from revolvers to LMGs)
Also, reduce the number of total guns in the US by taking away the now legal ones the price on illegal guns will soar as there are fewer around. Also, eventually there will be fewer illegal guns too as guns seized by the police during arrests can be taken off the market and destroyed, something wich will increase the black market price even higher. That will lead to fewer guns used in crimes as it will be harder for criminals to afford guns and as a result, hospitals won't have to deal with as many bullet wounds, both accidental and intentional.

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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2007, 07:48:33 PM »
Empire, if the government was to try to take away the 240 million firearms of America, I guarantee you they firearms meant to be taken away will be used as the Founding Fathers had intended. The 2nd Amendment was not put in to place for us to used against criminals, it was put in as a safeguard against the government. A US government that oppresses its people too much would suffer the consequences, but in an unarmed country, the citizens can do nothing.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2007, 07:55:56 PM »
Then frankly, I am confounded why you aren't using them in that way right now...

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Offline Romanar

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2007, 08:03:47 PM »
Then frankly, I am confounded why you aren't using them in that way right now...

Because the vast majority of Americans aren't being oppressed.  Most of us just go to work everyday, work at our jobs, then go home to watch "American Idol". *barf*  Maybe they hear on the news about Gitmo or the Patriot Act, but they just yawn and think it won't happen to American citizens.

Offline Ryazania

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2007, 08:07:37 PM »
Empire, you and I both know the above statement is horseshit. Sure, we may be a bit less liberal with civil rights than some countries, but that's ok with most Americans because we are, for the most part, morally conservative. But other than a few things, we are as free to do as we please as we would be in any other country. The government does not require me to do anything but pay a few taxes. It does not regulate my every move. I am free to criticize the government, as I have many times before, and still be able to do it time and time again. If you think we are truly oppressed (unless you mean that we're a corporate dictatorship, which would be an argument for another day) then I suggest you remain silent on the matter.
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When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2007, 08:14:35 PM »
So as long as the government only opresses the rest of the world and thus in effect you as non-protesting citizens opress or bully the rest of the world it's not a problem?
And you know I have stated that more than once but you are right that my latest post and the first part of this one is off topic, the second last however isn't and your reply is actually more sad than anything else.
That you can't see the greater good beyond your own petty sand box and thus hold on to your "right" to own a gun no matter the cost in lives or your own humanity.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 08:16:32 PM by The Empire »

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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2007, 08:49:58 PM »
I am sorry, but you failed to contest any of the contentions I put forth. I am merely stating that the reason we have the 2nd Amendment is that it is a safeguard against tyranny. You say we are oppressed here in America and you wonder why we do not use our Constitutional right to revolt against the government. I state that we in America are not oppressed, as evident by many things. You respond with something completely irrelevant to the matter by bitching about America's 'oppression' (I do admit that my government intervenes too much, that's why I support Ron Paul) of the world, which has little to nothing to do with my previous statement.
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Proud Constitutionalist

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2007, 09:05:05 PM »
It might be true that the second amendment is there to safeguard against an oppressive government but it was written in a whole different era than the world of today. That alone should warrant a thorugh re-evaluation of it's advantages vs. the flaws in it's wording and the results of those flaws.

For example, would a ban on pistols along with a regulation of how other weapons are to be stored be a breach of the second amendment? Because that alone would probably decrease gun-related deaths in a second or even first step without limiting the individual's possibilities to own weapons to defend against an opressive government.

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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2007, 09:06:54 PM »
Actually, after thinking about it, I know what will bring gun-related deaths and overall homicide rates down.

The legalization of drugs.
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Proud Constitutionalist

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2007, 09:17:10 PM »
Don't fool yourself there Ryaz, that will only move the death-tolls from guns to OD's and increase other costs on your society more than tenfold as drugs ALWAYS affect more people than the users themselves. But on the other hand, that will bring on the internal collapse of the American empire faster than I can say uncle and free the rest of the world so go ahead O:-)

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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2007, 09:27:02 PM »
But you won't bitch when we are having non-violent deaths, will you?  :trout:

Anyway, people who want drugs can get them now if they want to. Hardly any of the user base would change just because of the legality of something. Plus, the government will likely tax it. Why wouldn't they, marijuana is the biggest cash crop in America.
Economic Left/Right: 9.65
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.37

Proud Constitutionalist

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2007, 09:35:44 PM »
Actually, I'll probably stop bitching when the only ones dying by American hands are other Americans regardless of how they die ::)

I still think the user base would change once it was more accepted officially. Also, could you explain the American double standards when it comes to sex? (One can do whatever one wish as long as one pretends it's not happening including censoring "bad" words in lyrics and media) Preferably in a PM or a new topic as to not clutter this one.

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Offline Khablan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2007, 12:28:40 AM »
Quote
Yes, but I still advocate that the fewer guns there are in a society, the better

I can understand your reasoning.  But of course that could only have a positive effect if guns were reduced evenly; if the law-abiding citizens had fewer or no guns, but the criminals still had as many, then it only puts the innocent at more of a disadvantage. 

It's easy to get the guns away from average people by passing a law, since most would obey it, even if unhappy about it.  The problem is that criminals already prefer to buy arms through illegal means, because it's harder to trace them back to the shooter.  In order to buy them legally, we have to register them.  So in order for that to work in any beneficial way, they'd have to come up with a successful way of removing the illegal ones first.  If there was a simple solution to that, it wouldn't be a problem now.

Quote
Also, reduce the number of total guns in the US by taking away the now legal ones the price on illegal guns will soar as there are fewer around. Also, eventually there will be fewer illegal guns too as guns seized by the police during arrests can be taken off the market and destroyed, something wich will increase the black market price even higher. That will lead to fewer guns used in crimes as it will be harder for criminals to afford guns and as a result, hospitals won't have to deal with as many bullet wounds, both accidental and intentional.

Again, I can understand where you're coming from on this.  But the past has shown us that while that makes sense in theory, it doesn't necessarily work that way in practice.  It was the same line of reasoning that brought about Prohibition, and that's not the result we saw when we tried it.  Instead, the black market increased beyond expectations.  The suppliers became more powerful, branched out into other areas, and violent crimes multiplied, like ripples in a pond. 

In this case, since criminals generally use guns purchased by illegal means rather than those purchased on the legal market, it would, in effect, simply make it more lucrative for the illegal suppliers.  In addition to the old criminal customer base, they'd now have a percentage of those who used to buy them legally for self-defense, etc.  So there again, it isn't the legal supply that's the problem - it's the illegal market, which would only become more powerful if the legal was removed.  Suppliers are in it to make money.  They aren't going to price guns so high that no one buys them anymore.  That would be shooting themselves in the foot (bad pun intended).

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A US government that oppresses its people too much would suffer the consequences, but in an unarmed country, the citizens can do nothing.
Quote
I am confounded why you aren't using them in that way right now

If you're being serious, then on the one hand, you're saying that Americans are wrong to have guns, but on the other hand, we're wrong because we're not using our to overthrow the government.  Either guns are alright or they're not - saying that it's not okay to have guns, BUT it's okay to have them if we're going to go kill people with them makes no sense to me.  I can't imagine that you're saying politicians and those whose job it is to defend them don't count as people, so it's okay to shoot them.  So I have to assume that you posted before thinking things through.

Americans aren't gun-happy.  If we disapprove of something our government is doing, we're not likely to start shooting people in order to change it.  Personally, I consider non-violence a good thing.  If you think we approve of what our current government has done internationally lately, then you've been mislead.  People here -are- trying to do something about it.  Even many in politicians are trying as well.  We just aren't using violence as the means.  But it's wrong because we're not killing people to achieve that goal?

If the entire point was to bring up your disapproval of what the US government is doing, and you just wrote it badly, then that's a subject for an entirely different thread.

Quote
Actually, after thinking about it, I know what will bring gun-related deaths and overall homicide rates down.

The legalization of drugs.

That's certainly been suggested many times, and although I'm not a proponent of it, there is some basis to think it could work if done correctly.  Much of the violent crime in the US is drug-related, which is similar to what happened during the Prohibition years when alcohol was illegal.  So it isn't completely irrational to theorize that by legalizing drugs, we shift it into non-criminal hands, and thus the crime rate should fall.

What I've been saying all along is that we'll be much more successful if we address what motivates people to commit violent crimes, rather than take away one means of doing them. 

Just for a recent example, look what they've done about cigarette smoking.  Rather than make it illegal and spend money on the increased law enforcement needed to limit the black market that would inevitably develop, they attacked the motivation to smoke in the first place instead. 

They directed money and effort into programs engineered to reduce people's desire to smoke, instead.  Cigarettes were still freely available, although more expensive.  Laws were enacted to prohibit smoking in public places.  People are free to smoke if they want, but it's now much less convenient. 

They gave people more -motivation- not to smoke, rather than try to force them to stop, and achieved remarkable success.  Reduce the desire and reduce the market.  The black market has nowhere to take hold, because there's less customer base.  Therefore, no increased criminal activity. 
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2007, 12:31:59 AM »
weird thing happening to this forum, i mainly get errors when trying to see this topic, either says im not moderator either says im not allowed..any mod messing with this?

Offline Teoghlach

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2007, 01:27:11 AM »
I know I'm jumping in mid-debate here, so I apologize if I repeat something. It's likely to happen :)

Making something illegal doesn't stop it; here in lies the problem. Murder still happens, theft still happens; a law doesn't guarantee a utopia, so to speak. All right, so these are sort of outrageous examples, perhaps, yet they are still examples that gun control doesn't necessarily equal gun control. I'm not sure how it works in the United States, yet here in Canada, even if most provinces have opted out of it. Is it working? Sketchy to say that it is.

I think the gun problem goes far beyond gun control laws. I saw a "legalize drugs" suggestion earlier. :P Guns happen here. Guns happen in gangs. Guns happen in a country, such as the United States, where they're allowed. Gun control laws will not fix the problem, I don't think, and gun registry hasn't shown to be too effective, either. What is the solution? I think it's too multi-faceted to boil down to one statement. I am saying this without any evidence to back it up whatsoever, yet most gun violence isn't a random 18 year old upper middle-class Caucasian girl holding up a La Senza store for a bra: it comes from troubled groups in society that try to solve problems the only way they know how. A solution goes far beyond a simple gun law!