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Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 12365 times)

Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #120 on: May 08, 2007, 11:23:56 PM »
thats a good point. this problem wouldn't happen if there were extreme points of view, ones say "yes guns", others say "no guns". When you dont say anything and argue for arguing, you dont have anything expected in your mind, you'r open. I thought we were arguing how, why, what, which, whatever we could do with USA gun control. "stricter rules in gun ownership so that fools wont get to carry guns" sure, so many fools around :p

Offline Khablan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2007, 05:17:01 AM »
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Nope, not removing legal guns, removing easily-concealed and versatile guns, period.

Now THAT sounds more reasonable to me.  US citizens aren't allowed to carry concealed weapons without a permit, and to get that permit, we have to prove a valid need, have a good track record, etc.  But of course having a law against it does not make it impossible to do so.  The criminal element is just as likely to disregard it. 

If handguns were made illegal, then we could still have our shotguns, hunting rifles, and such.  We couldn't conceal those, but then we're not allowed to anyway.  Someone made a valid point that longer guns are useless at close range, which is of course a drawback. 

And of course criminals who pay no attention to laws anyway could still get the handguns on the black market.  And then there are ways of cutting down guns in order to make them more easily concealed anyway, such as sawed-off shotguns.  So I can't see how it could actually reduce violent crime.  But it's at least something I'd be willing to consider as a compromise, versus banning all guns entirely.  Still, I'd have to be convinced that my giving up one of my rights really would benefit society.  I can't think of anything we'd actually gain by giving that up.

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That's what I as an outside observer see as a first step to a safer US, not only for US citizens but for us outsied the US as well as the fear-based reactions of US citizens and US politicians playing on that fear is affecting the whole world in a negative way.

You make a good point there.  People are swayed by the media and by what everyone around them are saying.  It affects our opinions and the decisions we make based on those opinions. 

It is a sad thing that people so often don't think for themselves.  But then, often we have very little to go on other than what we hear, because we've never actually been there, done that, or known any of those people.  We only truly know the real facts if we've experienced it.  Otherwise, we're going on what we've been told, one way or another.

That's how prejudice spreads.  A person grows up in a place where everyone around them holds a certain opinion about a certain group of people.  If everyone says so, then it must be right, because surely everyone can't be wrong.  If they've never met any of those people or lived among them, never gotten to know them well enough to judge for themselves, then how are they to suspect that everyone could be wrong about them? 

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i (so that I do not include in any generalization) think they are deeply moved by the media inside USA.

I wouldn't say that.  I don't believe people in the US are any smarter or stupider than anywhere else.  I do believe that most people never realize when they've been manipulated.  Personally, I'm a bit jaded.  Having been born in the sixties, I have a natural tendency to keep my eyes open for manipulation by government, media, etc.  I know there's usually more to it that we're just not hearing about. 

I had a friend who lived in the mideast.  He spend large blocks of time in both the country where he was a citizen, and in the one nearby, where he had spent his childhood.  He told me that what was shown in each country's media about the other one painted a hugely different picture of things.  Each country's media was slanted toward making their own country look good, and the other look bad.  He told me that the truth was somewhere in the middle for both.  In many cases, the things that were portrayed as proof against one country were practiced in both, but most people didn't know that.  The citizens had no way of knowing that what they were hearing was not the full, true picture. 

They did not know they were being manipulated, and the main reason the info they were given was slanted was because the two governments did not get along with each other.  When the citizens in the country support the government's stance against another country, it's easier for the politicians to do what they want against it.

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"We have the right to have machineguns", no you dont when you sell them in black market, who's selling the guns in Brazil? Russian Mafia? Al Qaeda? Ayatollah? Saddam Hussein?

Machine guns are not legal in the US.  Those who want to make them legal are in a small minority, and it's not at all likely to happen.

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Anyway, 1st thing that should be done, stricter hunting laws:goes for preserved species and what kind of guns you can hunt with. Hunting wolves with an MG36 is unhuman, un whatever. It's not that you have to have respect for animals, it's that what a waste of resources, wasting on a machinegun, wasting on bullets, wasting life, wasting wolves, destroying the normal/natural cicle of life.

There are strict laws on when we can hunt, where we can hunt, which animals we can hunt, how many animals we can kill in a hunting season, and what weapons it's legal to hunt with.  These laws vary somewhat from one county to the next in each state, but they're pretty similar.  And again, machine guns are NOT legal in the US. 

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After that, only hunters can have firearms.

How would that be achieved?  We buy yearly hunting licenses.  If people had to get one of those in order to own a firearm, a lot of people would do so even if they never intended to set foot in the woods.  Personally, I don't see that as being fair anyway.  The fact that someone hunts would not indicate they're somehow smarter, or safer with weapons, than any other citizen.  If you're going to allow it for some, then you have to allow it for all.

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Either the criminals would become all hunters to have guns, either they would have to go for the blackmarket, but as i said, most of the black market exists because people start the buying legally, they just go sell in other countries, then they trade, 500pistols for 300 machineguns, then they return, 300 machineguns for 700 pistols, etc etc. Happens that allowing people to have guns in USA, makes them sell where it is illegal, they go for overprices, since it's illegal.

That's quite a stretch.  I own guns.  I have never and will never sell them on the black market.  I know a great many people who own them and pass them down to their own children - none of them have ever sold them in the black market.  Owning a gun does not make a person dishonest.  By what you're saying, if we made guns illegal in this country, then the black market would increase because other countries would sell their guns here.  How are we further ahead that way?  Until ALL guns are illegal EVERYWHERE and all criminals are somehow stamped out, there will always be a black market.

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"stricter rules in gun ownership so that fools wont get to carry guns" sure, so many fools around

I'd love to see that happen!  But until there's a test that can accurately determine who's a fool and who isn't, you're going to have fools who are dangerous with cars, weapons, and heavy machinery.  ;)
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2007, 03:47:44 PM »
the machineguns are alegory. Plus, here to become a hunter, you actually have to be hunter, you have to go hunt. If people need hunting licenses to have firearms there, do they hunt? or shoot at criminals? is that hunting?

and about the media, note i said people are moved BY the media, people smarter or dumber everywhere, but the media manipulates alot in USA. Doesnt happen much in other countries, not that deeply. The 9/11 is one of those sceneries.

Offline Talmann

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #123 on: May 10, 2007, 02:28:44 AM »
Might I ask HOW the government will know you hunted when you have the license? Because that seems to be your point, that you HAVE to hunt if you have a license. And if you ban guns except to those who "hunt", people will abuse the system.
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Offline Xyrael

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #124 on: May 10, 2007, 02:38:21 AM »
The problem with giving guns to any one with a good record is what happens when the guy shows up with no record? Is no record > good record?

IMO guns should be banned for all those who have not served with the military, and any military veteran deemed mentally unfit to bear a weapon (such as Post-Traumatic whatever etc. etc.) should not be allowed to do so. Not only this, the Police force should be given automatic weapons. When you go to Europe, it doesn't matter if you own a gun or not, it's the sheer fear factor you have when a police officer with an automatic gun and 15 grenades walks past you, you don't want to commit a crime. We have a problem with deterrence in America, crime is up because people aren't afraid of the police. They should be afraid of the police. They should be worried that cop will put a 30 round magazine through their chest, not shoot some pistol which has to be holstered when there is no perceived threat.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 02:39:56 AM by Xyrael »
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #125 on: May 10, 2007, 03:14:21 AM »
~dont go for the military, look at that sniper that killed alot of people in USA long time ago. All civillians no weapons, like we do in europe, a guy tries to be smart with a knife at you, most of them that use knifes are scared to hell. Ofc you get a bit scared if you'r alot, if you'r not, what do you have to loose? just punch the guy, no weapons, no shots, no kills. You dont even have to report to 'the law', because they wont do anything.

Offline Khablan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #126 on: May 10, 2007, 05:25:24 AM »
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Plus, here to become a hunter, you actually have to be hunter, you have to go hunt.

How would they know whether a person is a hunter or not?  A person could say they are, even get others to back him up, but the government can't possibly know whether someone's actually going out hunting.  Even if they could find a way to do that, how does one buy a weapon to hunt in the first place, if they have to somehow prove they're a hunter in order to purchase one.  How do they determine that in your country?

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If people need hunting licenses to have firearms there, do they hunt? or shoot at criminals? is that hunting?

No, they only need a hunting license in order to hunt.  In order to purchase a gun, they have to undergo a background check and register it, which is meant to help pin down the owner of any gun used in a crime.  We don't actually get a -license- to own a gun.  The permit is needed in order to carry a concealed weapon, which I mentioned earlier - the person has to prove they actually need to.

And no, people who own guns here don't go out looking for bad guys to shoot.  That would also be illegal even if they wanted to.  We discussed earlier in this thread how strict the laws are on whether a person is allowed to shoot someone.  We have to leave that to the police.  If you mean whether we shoot a criminal in self-defense, then yes, some have done that.  But that's not a common occurence.  I've never in my life known anyone who's ever shot a person except for those in the police or who served in wars.  And I've been around awhile.   

You have to remember that law-abiding people here don't buy guns so they can shoot people.  They buy them for the purpose of hunting, or to have them in case they need it for self-defense, or because they like to collect them.  We're not cowboys in the movies, ya know.  We're regular people just like you. 

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IMO guns should be banned for all those who have not served with the military, and any military veteran deemed mentally unfit to bear a weapon (such as Post-Traumatic whatever etc. etc.) should not be allowed to do so.

I can't see any reason for penalizing people for not making a certain career choice.  If someone who's been in the military deserves to have one, does he somehow have more reason to need one than anyone else, once he's out?  Are you saying that because they've been trained with weapons?  A person doesn't have to be in the military in order to get training.  I'd be all for requiring training in gun use and safety before purchasing their first one, if that's the concern.    But to say only ex-military people can own them would never fly.  It just isn't reasonable.
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #127 on: May 10, 2007, 08:54:03 AM »
no people with guns. This would prevent killing innocents...hey, if USA was invaded, why couldn't they kill civillians? they are armed, they are threats, they shouldnt be considered civilians. THATS A BIG DISTINGUISH FROM MILITARY TO CIVILIAN IN THE REST OF THE WORLD: to carry guns. Not like what Nato is doing in Afghanistan, kills more civilians than taliban fighters, yesterday they bombed a popullation again, alot of dead, you should be ashamed!

Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #128 on: May 10, 2007, 10:50:28 AM »
In Sweden, and I belive most europeean nations have similiar regulations, ALL individuals with hunting licenses has to be registered as members of a hunting society. To get that license and to keep it they have to undergo yearly proficciency tests on shooting and game-anatomy. They also has to undergo regular inspections on how many weapons they have, how they store the weapons and the weapons's critical parts and ammunition (all three have to be stored separately and locked-away). They also have to undergo regular evaluations on mental health and have to have their licences with them whenever they transport their weapons to and from the hunting grounds.
Thus, to own a weapon in Europe, you have to open up for close and invasive scrutiny of your personal life so the government can assure the safety of unarmed citizens to a greater extent.

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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #129 on: May 10, 2007, 01:26:00 PM »
i know it's not easy to get hunting license in Portugal, i think they actually need to hunt (as they are supposed to), they probably have to justify where, when, what they will hunt, and actually proove it.

Offline Khablan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #130 on: May 10, 2007, 01:56:22 PM »
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no people with guns. This would prevent killing innocents...

If you could actually come up with a way to remove ALL guns, both legal and illegal, then I'd be all for it.  The problem is that no one's ever been able to do that.  Not in the US, not in any other country.  You can remove all legal guns, but that's not the same. 

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hey, if USA was invaded, why couldn't they kill civillians?

Civilians ARE killed during war.  That's nothing new.  It isn't supposed to happen, but we all know it does. 

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Thus, to own a weapon in Europe, you have to open up for close and invasive scrutiny of your personal life so the government can assure the safety of unarmed citizens to a greater extent.

Sweden's way of going about it sounds very good.  Much better than what we have right now in the US. 

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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #131 on: May 10, 2007, 04:20:12 PM »
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Civilians ARE killed during war.  That's nothing new.  It isn't supposed to happen, but we all know it does.

Genebra and human rights says otherwise...see my point? we love human rights, anything that stands in USA (gun ownership, invasion of countries, killing innocent people) just breaks through. civilians arent suposed to die, it's actually against what you stand for, i dont know UN laws on this, but if it's the same as human right and all that, it's against the law. So bombarding a supposed taliban village when you find out they were all civilians? isnt that stupid? 'oh yeah we killed 2 taliban on that bombarding' and you killed 100 times more civilians.

my point stands, civilians are different from the military, military carry guns, civilians dont. Ofc in USA that doesnt happen, if USA was invaded, why couldn't the invadors kill civilians when they are armed? civilian and innocent people isnt the same thing, if you carry a gun, you'r a threat to the ennemy, you'r not an innocent person. Just ride my point and see where it goes.

Offline Khablan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #132 on: May 11, 2007, 05:08:39 AM »
Delfos, you're taking what I said completely out of context.  Civilians get killed in wars, no matter where they happen or who's fighting them.  That's one of the terrible things about wars.  Do you actually believe that only happens when America is fighting in one?  That's absolutely preposterous. 

This Genebra you're refering to - do you mean the Geneva Convention?  I did not imply that civilians are -supposed- to get killed during wars, or that I approve of it.  I said that it happens.  Nothing in the Geneva Convention ever said civilians do not get killed in wars.

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my point stands, civilians are different from the military, military carry guns, civilians dont. Ofc in USA that doesnt happen, if USA was invaded, why couldn't the invadors kill civilians when they are armed? civilian and innocent people isnt the same thing, if you carry a gun, you'r a threat to the ennemy, you'r not an innocent person. Just ride my point and see where it goes.

I'm not sure what your point is.  Yes, civilians are different from the military, but I don't see how the only difference is whether they have guns or not.  A military person is trained to kill people and obey orders.  A hunter, on the other hand, is not.

As to your question, what makes you think that if America was invaded, civilians would NOT be killed?  It happens all over the world.  Or are you really asking whether I think it would be right for an invading army to start shooting civilians freely on the basis that they may or may not have guns sitting at home in their closet?  My answer is of course not. 

Apparently, your opinion is different.  Let me ask you this, then - if America invaded some other country, and they started shooting everyone they saw on the basis that they might be carrying a weapon or a bomb, would THAT be okay?  Or is it only okay to kill Americans, in your opinion?

This is utterly ridiculous.  What happened to having an intelligent exchange of ideas and opinions on gun control?  It seems as though it's now being used to vent prejudice instead.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 05:10:59 AM by Khablan »
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #133 on: May 11, 2007, 02:00:43 PM »
taking your example, if the allies would invade kosovo, would they kill civilians? they arent armed, they are not a military target. Yes civilians are killed, they there are collateral damage and massacre. As bombing a village to kill 2 taliban and 200 civillians, you call that a collateral damage, or a massacre? Massacres are outlawed, collateral damage isnt. Happened in Afghanistan if im not mistaken: they ordered an air strike to a building, right next to it is a red cross hospital filled with children. Booom, both buildings are hit. Isn't that a massacre? you cant call it collateral damage, more civillians died than terrorists. It was a stupid action, and there's alot of them when you invade a country. My problem with USA is that it keeps invading countries, making massacres.

But my point wasnt going there, my point was that there's innocent people killed in wars, that make the difference between collateral damage and massacre. Armed civilians arent innocent people, they are militias, as Myroria often say. So even in 9/11, was there innocent people, or armed civilians? (taking the point to an extreme to be better seen).

If a nation invaded an european country, they couldnt kill the civillians, even if they do die, they are unarmed, they are innocent people. They are NOT a military target, they are no threat to the enemy. Ever thought of that? thats what i want you to see and argument, plus you'r a smart man, i want to know what you think and say about this issue.

Offline Myroria

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2007, 02:14:52 PM »
Delfos, you're exaggerating. We wouldn't bomb a city if we know it has two Taliban members in it, because, strangely enough, officers are officers for a reason, and that reason is that they're intelligent. Now you're thinking that because they might have gotten faulty intelligence, that must mean they're evil and want to kill children. Stop making every incident into an atrocity, and stop making every American out to be a devil incarnate.

And your statement about an invasion of a European country makes me laugh. First of all, no one would invade a European country because we'd save you. Again. I think you're forgetting that without us evil Americans, you'd all be heiling Hitler or praising Stalin right now. It strikes me as funny that certain liberal Europeans (See, I'm not saying all, I'm not being like you) hate America, but see us as saviors when we go in to help them.

And second of all, I don't think a country that invades Europe will care about the Geneva Convention.


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