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Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 12303 times)

Offline Solnath

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #105 on: May 07, 2007, 05:46:58 PM »
You know, giving everyone guns and the incentive to use them on one another could really help cut the population growth. So get to work, Yanks.
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Offline Cartwrightia

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #106 on: May 07, 2007, 10:13:53 PM »
Ah the classic generalisations.  On the one hand you have Emp stating that the US is an evil empire and confusing his apparent hatred of the current administration with a hatred of the entire American people, which considering there are over 300million Americans is something of a stretched extrapolation, to say the least.

Then there is Barceleroth, on the one hand conceding that a vast criminal element resides in the country and that as a result you will never check the black market (obvious enough about any country) and on the other that he can a) speak for the entire American people and b) that they all (by use of we) adhere to principles.  So you have Barceleroth, self appointed spokesmen for the 300million Americans on this planet, telling us that American "gansters, drug-dealers... 'bad guys'" etc live and die by the principles of life, liberty and property, just like the rest of the population, which he himself has personally spoken to, who all have homogenous views and so can be boiled down in to one trite paragraph.

Rather than resorting to ridiculous generalisations on the two well worn and boring paths of anti-Americanism and its resultant anti-Europeanism, why not have a dispassionate debate?  Suggesting that all Americans blindly accept the Constitution without question is frankly an insult to any educated person living in that country, while suggesting that the United States has "no semblence of democracy" is also an assertion which deserves nothing more than to be laughed out of town.
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #107 on: May 07, 2007, 10:59:53 PM »
point of concern: bush gets elected twice.

if we dont like them, you dont like them, wtf is he doing up there? 'oh peaceful and no revolutions' just take the man off the charge ffs.

anyway, its weird having pro-americans saying they dont like bush, althought they love america, so they allways come with the generalization issue. matters or not, you (doesnt matter who) chosen Bush to represent USA.

You(doesnt matter who in person, matters the collective), have a problem with guns, gun control or not, i dont care, im just stating what i think. If you come to defense your pro-americanism on 'us' about generalization, saying 'us'(generally speaking) are...'anti-americans', is quite the same thing..isnt it? Dont generalise if you'r against generalization, my bottom line was made. You put men in charge of your country, get your own blame on it. Just take him off if he's that bad.

and about constitution, just change it if you'r so against it. 'oh i'v no powers' bullshit, the french imigrants have no powers, you have all the powers of the world to make changes.

Offline Talmann

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #108 on: May 07, 2007, 11:25:28 PM »
Emp. - in order to destroy the black market, you have to destroy it EVERYWHERE. So unless you have a way to rid Earth of guns entirely, I suggest you take into account the black market in your perfect world predictions. And it is hard to stop smuggling, just look at US/Mexico border.

And burglaries CAN happen at any time, thus Barc's statement.

Delf. - Just because Bush is elected twice, doesn't mean the majority like him. Just the majority (a SLIM majority, may I remind you) of the people who voted, which was at an all time low.
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Offline Novus Parco

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #109 on: May 07, 2007, 11:54:42 PM »
Actually, he lost the popular vote the 2nd time through..........
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #110 on: May 08, 2007, 01:03:31 AM »
It was 51 to 49. That's not close, Delfos. Maybe if you studied America before criticizing it, you'd know that.
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #111 on: May 08, 2007, 02:38:21 AM »
rofl you misunderstood, the post was about generalizations, and i dont have to study USA, it comes on the news. As i said way before, I KNOW THAT NOT ALL AMERICANS LIKE HIM OR VOTED FOR HIM OR WHATEVER! and stop saying i cant criticize USA without being there, pro-gunners here criticise non-americans saying they are too utopic, wake up, non-americans live in utopia then, but theres USA to ruin it.

Offline Talmann

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #112 on: May 08, 2007, 03:36:18 AM »
a) don't EVER listen to the news, because they exaggerate everything to get people to watch them. b) Myro- I said it was close, not Delfos. Please read who says something before getting angry. And c) let's get back on topic here, hm?
Music is the key to the heart.

"Once art to me was something far off, unfathomable and unreachable... But I discovered that the real essence of art was not something high up and far off, it was right inside my ordinary daily self. If a musician wants to be a fine artist, he must first become a finer person. A work of art is the expression of a person's whole personality, sensibility, and ability." -Shinichi Suzuki

Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #113 on: May 08, 2007, 04:05:27 AM »
thats why i see different news, the facts that are equal to all are mainly true..or is it a conspiracy against..whoever?

RTP1 Notícias (portuguese)
euronews (european)
skynews (english)
cnn (american,yes not only american, but what matters is the american point of view)
sad we dont have Al-Jazira in cable or else i would see it.

the ones i see practically every day is the portuguese and the european, when there's something not very well explained about USA that come son the news i turn CNN on. euronews is ellitist, they present FACTS only, even against EU, so i trust most of the info on them. They show alot of studies done by private companies or EU comissions, very interesting: i got an update for Ryaz who was asking about AIDS in Portugal. We'r one of the most problematic in europe along with Russia and most of the eastern countries. the rest are mild and low on AIDS problem. Germany government says the battle must be fought in foreign also, you cannot exclusivly turn your prevention to 1 country only when you have a bunch of foreigns with the same problem. To show how lovely the spannish are for the portuguese, we'r at red status in that study, there's no neighbor or close country with red nearby until the balkans. Anyway, Spain havent presented any data for the study, so there's no way i can say if they have more or less AIDS problem than the portuguese.

old map
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/em/v02n05/0205-222.asp


couldnt say when this was done, but anyway...

back to topic: guns are evil, redeem yourselves from the demon!

Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #114 on: May 08, 2007, 09:22:30 AM »
Not all news channels are like FOX "news", especially not european public service channels (though they are hardly unbiased either but there are nuances)

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Offline Khablan

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #115 on: May 08, 2007, 03:20:25 PM »
People are people wherever you go.  In every country in the world, you'll find good and bad, stupid and smart, greedy and generous.  To think otherwise is foolishness, because we all know that in any group of people, you'll see a wide variety of personalities.  To assume that everyone in a given place are all alike is ridiculous - we all know better.

News is a business like anything else.  Because of that, more coverage is given to those things that will attract viewers/readers/listeners.  More viewers = wider viewership due to spreading popularity = more profit and more power over others in the same field. 

Let's go over what's been happening in the US, and see whether it's been fully reflected in the news coverage in other countries:

9-11 scared the bejeezus out of everyone - it was a shock to us that such a thing could even stand a chance of happening in our country at all.  Up until then, terrorism was something that happened in other parts of the world, not here. 

A barrage of announcements told us that more such attempts could be expected at any large city at any moment, which resulted in a sense of paranoia.  ANY of us or our loved ones could be caught up in it at any moment.  People were suddenly afraid to go to any large city for any reason, and many people commuted to work there.

Bush fed that paranoia - let's not forget that he was going to be up for re-election, and if he played his cards right, the actions he took could help to ensure another term.  Other politicians who would be up for re-election stood to gain as well, and followed suit.

On the one hand, Bush acted immediately to reassure the public that things could be done to increase our safety, and that he was doing them.  On the other hand, the government also barraged us with constant press releases giving the impression that the threat of such incidents was still hanging over our heads.

When election time came close, they played the danger card as heavily as they could.  Bush had a proven track record by now as a "war-time president".  We weren't all that sure what the other guy would do.  Many people voted for Bush out of fear.  So Bush was re-elected.

As we gradually began to lose confidence in why our troops were still over in Iraq, as well as why we'd already been over there for so long, the government fed us info through the media geared toward making us believe that it was necessary, and that they were also working for the good of Iraq as well. 

And of course, as has been shown here in this very thread, people tend to believe the picture painted by the media.  We're not aware of any other factors that we aren't being told.  Fear of imminent threat glued us all to our TVs and newspapers, including those who normally paid little attention to it.  Newspaper sales soared.  Coverage of the threat and the war paid big bucks because that's what we feared and craved reassurance on. 

Early on, little to no media time was given to anyone saying that our government was doing might not be a good thing.  It didn't draw the big bucks.  And the government was still doing all it could to focus our attention where it wanted it.  That's politics for you, no matter where you are.  People in power manipulate in order to keep that power.

As protests increased, some of it happened in our local areas.  People became aware of it, and expected to see coverage in the news, and so the media gave us what we wanted.  The more people heard about opposing viewpoints, the less confident they became in the way the current administration was handling things.  We began questioning, and the answers we received didn't always work to satisfy us.

Today - and this is the important part - there are protests EVERYWHERE in the US.  Pressure is being put on the politicians - get us out of Iraq or risk being replaced come election time.  The majority of the citizenry are NOT happy with the situation.  People ARE actively trying to do something about it.

Bush can't be re-elected because a US president is limited to two terms, so if he's unpopular, it isn't as crucial to him personally now.  It IS just as crucial to those who so still have a chance for another term, so most politicians are now fighting Bush on this.

It is not a simple thing to remove a president.  He hasn't done anything actually illegal that we could use against him.  So we're basically stuck with him until his term runs out, like it or not.

So what should we do?  Go kill the guy?  Think it would be easy to just walk up and shoot a president?  Would YOU really want to try it?  Violence is wrong, right?  And don't forget that if someone did, then his vice-president would assume office by default, and he's likely to want to carry out the same plans as his predecessor, because they've been on the same team all along.  So then we're no farther ahead at all.  We'd still be stuck with the same agenda until the end of the term, when we can elect a new guy.

So.  Can we all stop believing the media is giving everyone a true, clear picture of where everyone stands on things?

Now... what we were talking about?  Ah yes.  Whether removing legal guns from the market would reduce violent crime.  Completely different subject, yes?
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #116 on: May 08, 2007, 04:37:54 PM »
Nope, not removing legal guns, removing easily-concealed and versatile guns, period. That's what I as an outside observer see as a first step to a safer US, not only for US citizens but for us outsied the US as well as the fear-based reactions of US citizens and US politicians playing on that fear is affecting the whole world in a negative way.

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Offline Delfos

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #117 on: May 08, 2007, 09:24:13 PM »
point of view towards that subject, i (so that I do not include in any generalization) think they are deeply moved by the media inside USA. I get very troubled to know how can he got to presidency twice with such mistakes. Are the ones that voted for him blind? Oh yes, their media controls them. someone mentioned FOX news, most of any people in the world think FOX news is controlled or influenced by the US government..Makes it a believable scenary for other places, for example in Portugal they invented a government conspiracy so that they would control some news. Amasing factor, they dont talk about it anymore, the government has much more things to do than control news. On the contrary, Us Government is huge, alot of people depend from the money generated by it. "their inability to understand is driven by the fact they are payed to not understand." heard this somewhere. It's actually true. Want me to pull the WMD card? There's other cards...since Hiroshima and Nagazaki that US government has been distributing cards like the WMD.
The fact NRA is so dominante in USA society is that they are supported by political figures, which also imply 'the law'. "We have the right to have machineguns", no you dont when you sell them in black market, who's selling the guns in Brazil? Russian Mafia? Al Qaeda? Ayatollah? Saddam Hussein? What a brain wash. Anyway, 1st thing that should be done, stricter hunting laws:goes for preserved species and what kind of guns you can hunt with. Hunting wolves with an MG36 is unhuman, un whatever. It's not that you have to have respect for animals, it's that what a waste of resources, wasting on a machinegun, wasting on bullets, wasting life, wasting wolves, destroying the normal/natural cicle of life. What for? fun? stricter laws on hunting i say. After that, only hunters can have firearms. Thats it, problem solved. Either the criminals would become all hunters to have guns, either they would have to go for the blackmarket, but as i said, most of the black market exists because people start the buying legally, they just go sell in other countries, then they trade, 500pistols for 300 machineguns, then they return, 300 machineguns for 700 pistols, etc etc. Happens that allowing people to have guns in USA, makes them sell where it is illegal, they go for overprices, since it's illegal. Or either distribute, because it's so cheap in their country to have a gun. Thats how gangs started in Brasil, and i blame mostly the USA. The Balkans had the same problem, glad EU solves it, why cant USA solve problems in the rest of america?

Offline Cartwrightia

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2007, 10:59:05 PM »
Err, for one thing, Brasil is a lot more populous than S America.  For another, the Balkans interventions were led by the UK and the US.  Look at the history of Bosnia and Kosovo, and you will see that Europe was willing to let another Rwanda happen there until les anglo-saxons led the way.
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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Gun Control
« Reply #119 on: May 08, 2007, 11:05:07 PM »
Why are we even arguing about this? It's quite obvious that we're not going to convince each other or agree on it, so there's really no point in doing this as it's not some sort of judge-scoring debate.
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