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Author Topic: 'Just War'  (Read 10051 times)

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2007, 10:00:06 PM »
Clinton was honest?  When?  I must have missed that day.  The man exuded falseness through every pore.  And I mean right from campaigning for the election.  Does anyone remember how hard they pushed the Kennedy similarities?  Good Lord, they even had Hillary bake cookies and wear a headband to make her look the part of Jackie.  They moved Kennedy's old desk back into the Oval Office so they could pose Clinton with it and use that as one more thing to compare the two.  How obvious can manipulation be?  Was it any surprise that Hillary ditched those headbands the minute her husband was elected?  Clinton's just a politician like every other.  He made good connections and learned how to walk the walk and talk the talk.

I agree with your general point, but you chose a very small example.  Clinton characterized Ehud Barak's throwing of crumbs to the Palestinians as "the best deal they will ever get."  He sold NAFTA on the basis that it would create jobs and stimulate the entire economy, when it in fact caused massive capital flight and only benefitted the largest corporations.  He gave the impression in '92 that he'd fight to the death for health-care reform, and then acquiesced meekly to Gingrich and his anarcho-capitalist dittoheads in '94.  Not to mention "welfare reform."  I'm sure there's more, but I was less than ten years old during the Clinton administration, and don't remember much of it.

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Reagan was popular too.  The man wasn't even a president in any real sense other than the fact that he was elected to the office.  His entire purpose was to be the "face" for the administration who really ran the show.  How anyone actually bought into the "trickle-down theory" is beyond me.  I was astounded when he was re-elected.

Remember, in the middle of Iran-Contra, how he went on TV and said "I don't believe that we traded arms for hostages, but the evidence tells me we did,"?  *shudders*

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Kennedy was good.  Carter was good but was thwarted on all domestic issues and so concentrated his efforts mainly on the international, and people have somehow forgotten all the good he did - they only remember what he wasn't able to do.  Out of the presidents we've had since I was born, those were the ONLY two I'd say were any good at all.

Kennedy wasn't good at all.  He ordered the CIA to go ahead with its attack on Cuba.  He was incredibly cautious on Civil Rights (he took actions to purge the militants out of the '63 March on Washington), he insisted on keeping missiles in Turkey, and he got us committed to Vietnam.  Carter was, I agree, far better, but the reason he was defeated domestically was that he didn't have the fortitude to challenge the conservative-liberal consensus that dominated the Cold War.

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And people wonder why the number of voters here have declined so much.  Because either we vote for one of two very sucky candidates, or we throw our vote away.  Sure, we can write in a candidate, or vote no to all the above, but one of the two are still going to win and we know it.  So to many people, it isn't even worth getting up off the sofa.

That or Direct Action...


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Offline Khablan

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2007, 05:02:42 PM »
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The main victims of a war is ALWAYS the innocent! Thus making a war on a nutcase equally unjust as any other war of aggression. If the target is a single nutcase, espionage and assassination would be better by far!

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Very much like Bush and the populations of US and UK not liking Saddam, so killing (or rather, creating the conditions necessary for them to be killed, mostly by each other) 100,000+ Iraqi civilians over 4 years.

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^great point Cart. Continuing on that line, Khab, how large part of the Iraqi population do you think supported Saddam? And how many of them aren't dying each day due to the situation caused by the occupation?

I think you're forgetting something here.  I'm against our presence in Iraq, and also against such "gray area" wars in general.  I agree with you both on all the above points.  So you're targetting the wrong person.

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While you as US citizens unilaterally reserve the right to pegg other nations for theirs? I think not!

Since when is it rational for -anyone- to blame the people for the actions certain politicians commit?  I've been saying that all along.  I'm not sure why you even said that, since from what I've been seeing in this forum, it hasn't been the Americans among us who were doing that.  It particularly makes no sense to do so when the general sentiment among those people is against those actions.  It's like yelling at the waitress because the chef didn't cook your steak properly.

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Get more presidents, vote in the greens, whatever. This time you will have more than 2 presidents, i hope Americans make a giant loop for mankind.

One can always hope. 

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Kennedy wasn't good at all.  He ordered the CIA to go ahead with its attack on Cuba.  He was incredibly cautious on Civil Rights (he took actions to purge the militants out of the '63 March on Washington), he insisted on keeping missiles in Turkey, and he got us committed to Vietnam.

Kennedy was and is extremely popular among Americans.  Truthfully, I was so small when he was in office that I don't have a great deal of personal knowledge regarding his presidency to draw from.  Civil rights did progress a great deal under his leadership.  As I recall, Cuba was a setup.  I can't blame the man for that one.  The Vietnam War started far before Kennedy took office, but he did increase the number of troops sent over by a large amount - the military bigwigs were insisting that they needed far more troops if they were to accomplish anything there.  That could conceivably be considered equal to starting the war, since it in effect made it a great deal more serious.  He was planning to end the war shortly after his assumed re-election, but was assassinated before that happened. 
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Offline The Empire

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2007, 05:12:51 PM »
I am no mind reader, and so, Khab, I apologize for preaching to the choir.
My position is that there is no such thing as universaly justified wars, anyone who claims there is is deciving themselves and worse, trying to decive others.

EDIT:
Though at least one part of course have to belive they have the right to force their will on others by killing them or else there wouldn't be a war. What I am saying is thus that their reasoning is ALWAYS wrong in at least one way.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 05:37:29 PM by The Empire »

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Offline Delfos

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2007, 05:27:16 PM »
it's always good to state your point(s)

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2007, 06:39:56 PM »
Kennedy was and is extremely popular among Americans.

Popularity is no measure of how a politician's policies actually effect his/her constituents.  It is only a measure of how good his/her damage control team is, how honest he/she is able to appear.  Kennedy derived his popularity from shamelessly touting the archetype of progress, appealing to young people even though he was in his forties, and having an attractive wife.  His actual positions had very little to do with his popularity, much as Obama's actual positions have very little to do with his popularity.

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Civil rights did progress a great deal under his leadership.

He did everything he could to derail civil rights.  I refer you to Malcolm X: "It was the grass roots out there in the street.  It scared the...white power structure in Washington D.C. to death; I was there.  When they found out that this black steamroller was going to come down on the capitol, they called in...these national Negro leaders that you respect and told them 'Call it off,' Kennedy said.  'Look, you all are letting this thing go too far.'  And Old Tom said, 'Boss, I can't stop it because I didn't start it.'  I'm telling you what they said.  They said 'I'm not even in it, much less at the head of it.'  They said, 'These Negroes are doing things on their own.  They're running ahead of us.'  And that shrewd old fox, he said, 'If you all aren't in it, I'll put you in it.  I'll put you at the head of it.  I'll endorse it.  I'll welcome it.  I'll help it.  I'll join it.
...It was a takeover.  They controlled it so tight, they told those Negroes what time to hit town, where to stop, what signs to carry, what song to sing, what speech they could make, and what speech they couldn't make, and then told them to get out of town by sundown."  Furthermore, Kennedy was far more cautious than Johnson when it came to appeasing the Southern democrats.

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As I recall, Cuba was a setup.  I can't blame the man for that one.

Well, if I may be blunt, you're wrong.  It's quite true that the CIA had planned the coup during the Eisenhower administration, but Eisenhower had deliberately left it on his desk, untouched, for the next President.  Kennedy was not locked into anything.  It was his decision to make whether to invade Cuba or not, and he made it.  Indeed, he took full responsibility for it on national television.

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The Vietnam War started far before Kennedy took office, but he did increase the number of troops sent over by a large amount - the military bigwigs were insisting that they needed far more troops if they were to accomplish anything there.  That could conceivably be considered equal to starting the war, since it in effect made it a great deal more serious.  He was planning to end the war shortly after his assumed re-election, but was assassinated before that happened.

Way to make my point.  Kennedy escalated the war far beyond any levels that Eisenhower had contemplated.  And the buck cannot be passed to the "military bigwigs."  Kennedy was perfectly free to make any choice he wanted to, unrestricted by a compliant Congress and in the absence of a War Powers Act.  As with Cuba, the decision to escalate in Vietnam can be laid entirely at Kennedy's feet.  As for the plans to end the war after his re-election, the documentation for that is flimsy at best, and promises meant to be kept after elections are, as we have seen many times, easily broken.


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Offline LLANYDERN

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2007, 03:56:31 PM »
a man I admire very much once said "we have what few things we have because we fought for them, the moment we stop fighting is the moment they take them away again"
I don't have anger issues I just prefer to solve my problems with violence!

Offline Solnath

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2007, 04:03:42 PM »
So, we're fighting against the course of nature? Do we really need those few things, then?
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Offline LLANYDERN

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2007, 04:09:06 PM »
the few things that were being referred to are things like:

-Free at point of delivery health care
-free at point of delivery education
-the right to have a union
-anti child labour laws
-the minimum wage
-industrial safety laws
-laws protecting workers from unfair dismissal
-laws protecting tenants from landlords
-food adulteration laws

Things like that

To me they are worth fighting for

And we are not going against nature we're going against the greed of people who already have more then they can use for the good of those who have none
I don't have anger issues I just prefer to solve my problems with violence!

Offline Solnath

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2007, 04:42:13 PM »
Ah, but what if those stopped fighting as well?
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Offline Delfos

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2007, 02:13:05 AM »
that reminds me of Cuba LLANYDERN, and they did fought for them, but i only see peace there, and repression from USA.

Offline Khablan

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2007, 04:25:56 AM »
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I am no mind reader, and so, Khab, I apologize for preaching to the choir.
My position is that there is no such thing as universaly justified wars, anyone who claims there is is deciving themselves and worse, trying to decive others.

No offense taken, Empire, and no need to apologize.  And you're right, of course, both sides in any war think they're right, or they wouldn't engage in it.  They all see the "truth" from their own unique standpoints.

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Popularity is no measure of how a politician's policies actually effect his/her constituents.  It is only a measure of how good his/her damage control team is, how honest he/she is able to appear.

Absolutely.  The fact that Reagan was a popular president rather proves that point on its own.  It's all about how good the PR team is, and how good the politician is at being charismatic and manipulative.  I wasn't trying to say that Kennedy was a good president because he was popular - I was just mentioning it as a side fact. 

And I wasn't trying to argue your point about Vietnam.  That's why I wrote the following...
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That could conceivably be considered equal to starting the war, since it in effect made it a great deal more serious.
  Perhaps I just wasn't being clear.  I was really just relating what I remembered from his administration, which was when I was quite small.  As far as that goes, you may be right, and Kennedy may not have been as good a president as people credit him. 

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And we are not going against nature we're going against the greed of people who already have more then they can use for the good of those who have none
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Ah, but what if those stopped fighting as well?

Then we would not have to fight for it, because they would no longer be trying to take it away.  Unless that happens, then we will fight, for ourselves, for our children, and for our children's children.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 04:29:07 AM by Khablan »
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Offline Delfos

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2007, 10:58:37 AM »
and it's for our children's children we're building renewable power source centrals, like huge wind turbine fields, bio-diesel and stuff like that.

Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #117 on: June 15, 2007, 12:21:26 AM »
Quote from: Soly
So, we're fighting against the course of nature? Do we really need those few things, then?

Define "the course of nature" please.  If you mean that we're fighting against self-interested human nature, I have one phrase for you.  Prove it.

Prove that greed, self-interest, competition, is natural, rather than created.  Trouble is, now that you've brought the topic up, you have the burden of proof.  Good luck :trout:

Quote from: Llanydern[/quote
-Free at point of delivery health care-free at point of delivery education
-the right to have a union
-anti child labour laws
-the minimum wage
-industrial safety laws
-laws protecting workers from unfair dismissal
-laws protecting tenants from landlords
-food adulteration laws

Things that are being taken away, have been taken away, or that we have never had are crossed out.  So basically, we've got education and the minimum wage.  We're fucked.


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Offline Solnath

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #118 on: June 15, 2007, 10:05:39 PM »
Entropy.
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Offline Zimmerwald

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #119 on: June 16, 2007, 12:47:33 AM »
The word "entropy" is a synonym for chaos, and has little to do with self-interest.  Furthermore, entropy and its sister concept the uncertainty principle, operate on the level of quantum mechanics, and are thus hardly applicable to human affairs, which conduct themselves on a Newtonian rather than a Planckian scale.  To further demonstrate the fallacy of your argument, I would state that entropy is a concept of the physical sciences and relates to particles, and does not have bearing on the social sciences, or relations between human beings.

Try again.  This is fun.


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