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Author Topic: 'Just War'  (Read 10050 times)

Offline Khablan

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2007, 05:05:08 PM »
That sort of detachment seriously alarms me. 
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Offline Stillwaters

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2007, 06:01:46 PM »
First, Soly you're smarter than that. You know that there is something wrong with millions of people. You're just trying to be difficult now.

Delfos, you are free to believe anything you want to believe, but that is not Biblical teaching. The Bible is God's word, and God never changes. There are no differences in the New Testament and the Old Testament, just further revelation. I didn't say anything about a holy war, and I am not about to sit and allow you to twist my words into something I didn't say. What I said was that killing in a war is justifiable. It is not murder, and that is what the Hebrew word in the 10 Commandments means- and it is clearly a different word than killing in the original language.

Christ did not teach to discard the sword. Rather he taught the sword in its proper place, and that those whose only resource was violence would inevitably perish by it. Christ actually teaches us to be prepared to provide for our own security vis a vis the personal weapon of the day – the sword.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

We can argue about the meaning of this Scripture if you wish, but the fact remains that Christ directly told His men to arm themselves. When He had sent them out originally, He told them to take nothing but faith and that all would be provided for them. They obeyed and it was as The Master had taught. They lacked nothing. But this time it was different.

When they returned to him with two swords, he did not correct them as He did at other times when they mistook His teachings, but rather told them that two swords were enough. Perhaps only two of them were physically able to use sword, perhaps two is all they could afford, but the point is His men were packing.

The sword was meant for physical protection, not specifically - as some commentators write – some sort of spiritual precursor to the Bible. The sword was meant for fighting and likely killing the evil men who would try to do the same to them in a fallen world. The sword was not to be relied upon exclusively, but rather kept in its proper place, for its proper use, at the proper time.

For what it is worth, I study the King James, New King James, NIV, and HCSB. I am also a seminary student. Thanks for asking!

Offline Delfos

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2007, 07:03:46 PM »
imo the Bible is a moral guidance book, created to lead mankind to better ways. Every religion have the similar concept. This is my own point of view, and everyone have their own. The extremists of Islam say the same thing you are saying but from their own Bible, so that's why i want to clarify your standings.

Offline Solnath

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2007, 09:22:02 PM »
First, Soly you're smarter than that. You know that there is something wrong with millions of people. You're just trying to be difficult now.

Ah, so you agree that there's something wrong with millions of people and hence they deserve death. Go genocide, eh?

But seriously, aren't you being a bit patronising now? Cute, but no dice. Ignoring my point of view as stupid or inane isn't going to expand your view of the world one bit. I'd kill a lot of people to get what I want if I felt that it was worth it, so would anyone else. There's a certain limit to what people are willing to do for something, it's higher for some and lower for others, but when you make the something valuable enough, anyone can do anything, even mass murder.

And it's not about what can be given to you either. I know I'd do a lot if someone guaranteed a long time of torture without relief if I didn't. Sure, most of us would have issues with it afterward, but that's just being narrow-minded considering all things. And just in case you might happen to want to bring in the Christian concept of "sanctity of life," remember who made that up as well. We did, 'cause we don't like getting killed.
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Offline Daimiaen

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2007, 09:55:43 PM »
Before entering fully into this.....Could I just ask for some definition of terms....specifically the terms War and Justification???
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Offline Solnath

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2007, 10:07:05 PM »
War: armed conflict between parties.
Just: righteous; guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness.
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Offline Romanar

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2007, 10:22:47 PM »
Regarding self-defense:  I'm in favor of it.  If someone is trying to kill me or my loved ones, I will stop him.  If I can stop him without killing fine, if not, I'll shed no tears.  However, the problem with pre-emptive self-defense is that if you're wrong, then it isn't self-defense, but murder.

For example:  if I'm told that my neighbor, who hates me, bought a Big Honking Gun and is coming to kill me & rape my GF, I have no moral problem with getting him before he gets me.  But if I go to his house, shoot him, and discover that there IS no BHG, then I've just become a murderer.

Offline Daimiaen

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2007, 12:58:36 AM »
Well...By that definition...Any discussion of self defence is moot surely....(As self defence pertains to one person defending themselves)

Anyhoo...back on topic....War is never...I repeat....never....justifiable....no matter what way you twist religious references or ethical attitudes....It is plain and simple wrong...



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Offline Delfos

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2007, 01:41:49 AM »
soly you forgot to mention morality lol

Offline Cartwrightia

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2007, 11:13:00 PM »
Hokey-koke, this looks like a damn good debate.  As a current student of War Studies, this kind of thing makes me more excited than I'd normally like to admit.  I'd like to make a few points about Just War, before sticking my oar in (no doubt where it isn't wanted) about some of the more general points raised here - that will be in my next post.

It is possible to wage a "just war", but that will always be subjective.  You have to convince yourselves that it is the just fight, because let's face it, you arn't going to convince the enemy are you?  Today just war theory is used to justify war to democracies.  In the Middle Ages, princes used just war theory to justify their fight to God.  I could give you all a history lesson here about the Medieval use of war, but I'll spare you that for today!

So what do we mean by "just war theory"?  The theory as it stands today gives seven determiners:
1) Legitimate Authority
2) Just Cause
3) Proportionality
4) Last Resort
5) Prospect of Success
6) Right Intention
7) Just Conduct

These are known as jus ad bellum - justifications for war.  Number 7 also covers jus in bello - just conduct, what we would recognise as the rules of war (think Geneva, the Hague etc.).

So for a war to be just, it must first be sanctioned by legitimate authority.  In the era of divine right, the LA was God.  When the state took on its current sovereign form, LA became the state.  It is often argued that post-1945, the UN forms the LA, and most of the time it does, but the State is still the major LA.

2 - Just Cause.  This is the big grey area.  Your cause must be just.  Who decides that?  Well, it's all subjective, and certainly not black and white enough to say that self-defence is always right.  This is subject to the trends of the day.  In the Cold War, fighting communism was "just" as far as the West was concerned.  Today, it is spreading democracy.  These are incompatible, given that the US toppled legitimately elected governments which were suspected of Communism, but they belong to different ages and were considered at least by some to be "just" in their time.

3 - Proportionality.  You can have all the LA you need and the most just cause in the world, but if you act out of proportion, you are in the wrong.  This too comes under jus in bello.  Let's take an example.  If the Falklands War of 1982 was just, which you may or may not believe but let's say it was for this, then that is great.  But if the United Kingdom nuked Buenos Aires in the furtherance of her aim (taking the islands back), then it is no longer a just war.

4 - Last resort.  War always kills a great deal of people who had no choice.  You must have finished the jaw-jaw before you move to the war-war.  And finished means actually trying, with the intention of preventing war, not just going through the motions until all your units are in position.

5 - Prospect of Success.  A lot of people are going to get killed by beginning a war.  If there is no reasonable chance of success, then this will be in vain and the war will have been unjust.  Leading your country to certain doom for some sense of honour is not just.

6 - Right Intention.  You must enter the war seeking to achieve the just aim.  Iraq may have been just, but if Bush or Blair were thinking of oil, or of annexing Iraq, then this invalidates the justness even if their entourages were not thinking these thoughts.  Similarly, if Falklands was just but the UK used it as a pretext to invade Argentina, the justness goes out the window.

7 - Just conduct.  The laws of war must be adhered to.  The USSR may have been justified in kicked Germany out in 1944, but the raping spree embarked upon by its soldiers once they crossed the border negates the justness under this framework.

So that's the modern framework.  It is never black and white, even self-defence is not good enough to justify war in itself as a cover all disclaimer.  I do believe that wars can be justified, and that this framework is of use to everyone from Christians to Atheists in trying to judge a war "just".
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Offline Khablan

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2007, 01:14:54 AM »
I have to applaud you, Cartwrightia, for an intelligent and worthwhile bit of input on the subject.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2007, 08:24:04 AM »
As I see it, what Cartwrighthia describes is indeed the terminology used by governments to decive it's populace in attempts at justifying the injustifiable crime of mass murder.
Thus, in my eyes, an offencive war is never truly justified, the numbers who support it doesn't matter. No human has the right to force anyone else's fate and one can't delegate any right one doesn't posess.

But I would like to know what could make organized self-defence unjust?

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Offline Cartwrightia

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2007, 07:04:26 PM »
Thank you, Khablan.

Quote from: The Empire
But I would like to know what could make organized self-defence unjust?

Any of the 7 criteria could make it unjust.  First of all, do you have a right to be where you are defending?  If not, that will affect your just cause.  The areas taken from Germany and given to Poland and Czechoslovakia after the Treaty of Versailles, 1919, had no right to be given to them except victor's justice.  So, to my mind, Czech "self-defence" of their German plundered lands was unjust.

Proportionality.  If your self-defence is disproportionate, you are unjust.  Let's say that Sweden is a nuclear power, and is invaded by Russia.  Russia gets to within 50 miles of Stockholm and are winning easily.  Stockholm pushes the button and wipes Moscow off the face of this earth.  Sweden = 9m people, Moscow alone = 10m.  Sweden are in the wrong, even though they were invaded.

Likelyhood of success.  Sweden is unlikely to succeed against the undivided might of Russia.  However, they put up a fight anyway out of some sense of honour.  That "honour" will get more people killed, since a bloodless invasion could have been allowed but instead, because of your "honour", you chose a shooting war.

Then there is jus in bello.  In this hypothetical war, let's now say that the Swedes are not being steamrollered.  They have won a few battles and are in control of territory still.  In the last battle, a Swedish regiment took 100 prisoners.  Understandably angry with these invaders, they line them up against the nearest stone wall and gun them down.  And bang!  There goes their justification.

Need I go on?  War is never black and white.
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Offline The Empire

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2007, 07:24:23 PM »
I sure understand your sentiment and agrees with you on all but one point, the one of likelihood of success.

In the example you use, which isn't too unrealistic by the way, you say that it would be unjust for Sweden to take up arms against a Russian invasion that we have no hope to stop right, but from seeing how Russian troops conduct themselves in other theaters, we can pretty much assume that, provided the low population in Sweden, we, as a people would be more or less extinct if such an invasion succeeded. Would it still be wrong to make an as organized and determined last stand as possible so as many civilians as possible may escape south to Denmark and central Europe?

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Offline Cartwrightia

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Re: 'Just War'
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2007, 07:35:18 PM »
No it wouldn't be wrong, if "success" in this case is evacuation rather than repulse of the enemy.  You'd still have to fulfil all the other categories while undertaking that stand, though.
'Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people.'
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