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Author Topic: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific  (Read 2905 times)

Offline Cormac

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Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« on: February 28, 2015, 03:55:15 AM »
Quote from: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
Aware of Taijitu's origin as a descendant community of The North Pacific, and of the two region's shared commitment to freedom and democracy, we seek to formalize an alliance of mutual defense.

  • The parties to this treaty are Taijitu and The North Pacific.
  • The parties will recognize the constitutional governments in force at the time of ratification of this treaty as the sole legitimate governments of their respective regions.
  • The parties will not undermine one another through subterfuge, espionage, invasion, or any other means.
  • The parties will defend one another to the best of their ability on the request of the other party.
  • The parties will share any intelligence relevant to the defense of the other party.
  • A new treaty between the parties may override this treaty.

Signed,

Delegate Blue Wolf II of The North Pacific,

Delegate Gulliver of Taijitu

I'm bringing this treaty up for discussion as it's the only one we've carried over from prior to the adoption of this Constitution. I think it's legally fairly important for the Ecclesia to re-ratify this, as our oath of citizenship only requires citizens to respect and uphold the Constitution and laws adopted by the Ecclesia. This treaty has not been adopted by the Ecclesia and, as a result, citizens and the citizen government aren't currently oath-bound to respect and uphold it -- though in practice we are doing so.

Given that The North Pacific evidently still views this treaty as valid despite our change in government, I'm not sure there's a need for them to be approached about re-ratificaton, though I do find it questionable whether the treaty is legally still in force in TNP given clause 2. This is not the government that was in force in Taijitu at the time of the treaty's ratification. So we should maybe hear from the Citizen-Delegate or Citizen-Diplomats on whether TNP needs to be approached about this as well.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 03:59:01 AM by Cormac »
Cormac Sethos
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Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 04:03:42 AM »
A new treaty is in the works, so asking TNP to re-ratify this one would probably be silly. It's been delayed by mcmasterdonia and r3n's unexpected unavailability and the special election.
                                 
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 04:18:55 AM »
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A few months ago, when McMasterdonia was elected delegate, I approached him about renewing and expanding our treaty. We worked out the above draft, but since he went inactive mere weeks afterwards all efforts towards renewing this treaty essentially stopped in their tracks.

At this point I would be fine with approaching whoever the North Pacific elects to replace McM with the draft shown above. However, I do feel I should make public some things relating to this issue. In no particular order:

1. I am currently Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs for the North Pacific. I worry about conflict of interest here, and would perhaps prefer someone else speak to Egalotir, TNP's Foreign Minister, on Taijitu's behalf if the Ecclesia decides to follow through with this treaty.

2. I have some reservations concerning TNP's gameplay stance. Like ourselves, they are traditionally neutral, but several acts over the past few months have pushed them away from their leaning-defender status - at least in my opinion. None of my reservations are strong enough to officially recommend against renewing, or even expanding, our treaty, but I think if we do continue to maintain our partnership with the North Pacific we should commit ourselves to opposing diplomatically any raids the NPA may undertake.

3. I'm sure McM's inactivity has thrown a wrench into TNP's government, but the complete lack of response from them, despite my overtures to them months ago, reflects badly on how much they value this treaty in my opinion. I cannot help but feel, however, that this is me taking affront personally, and I do not feel strongly enough about this in any case to recommend against a renewal of this treaty. TNP is one of our oldest allies and this treaty remains of great use to us.

4. If nothing else, I wish we would rewrite this treaty just so we could rid ourselves of the terrible, horrible phrase in the preamble: "Aware of Taijitu's origin as a descendant community of The North Pacific". I can't describe in words how much I hate that this is in the current treaty.

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Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2015, 04:34:00 AM »
3. I'm sure McM's inactivity has thrown a wrench into TNP's government, but the complete lack of response from them, despite my overtures to them months ago, reflects badly on how much they value this treaty in my opinion. I cannot help but feel, however, that this is me taking affront personally, and I do not feel strongly enough about this in any case to recommend against a renewal of this treaty. TNP is one of our oldest allies and this treaty remains of great use to us.

I'm not certain why this hasn't been communicated, but there has definitely been high level discussion of the treaty on TNP's end. It's just been stalled by the aforementioned events.
                                 
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Offline Cormac

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2015, 04:38:22 AM »
An expanded replacement treaty would probably be preferable. I have some issues with TNP's raiding activity as well, but given that the treaty has a provision that still allows TaiMil to defend against such raids, I'm okay with TNP doing their thing as long as we can oppose it.

I personally don't have any issue with you continuing to pursue discussion with TNP, Myroria, as I have faith in your ability to manage any conflict of interest. I would also be fine with the Citizen-Delegate or another Citizen-Diplomat pursuing this if you're not comfortable with it though.

On the text of the treaty:

The signatories will recognize the constitutional governments in force at the time of ratification of this treaty as the sole legitimate governments of their respective regions.

I would suggest this as alternative language: "The signatories will recognize the constitutional governments in force at the time of ratification of this treaty, and any legally enacted successor governments, as the sole legitimate governments of their respective regions."

This will avoid the problems we're facing now with needing to re-ratify the treaty, possibly on both ends, due to our change in government.

The signatories will not in any way, direct or indirect, initiate or participate in espionage, subterfuge, or other clandestine operations against one another. For this purpose, a "clandestine operation" is one or more persons acting under false pretenses in one signatory's home region or regional forum, without that signatory's knowledge, and at the direction of the other signatory

This is problematic. We need to make clear that espionage is a government directed activity, not hold the entire region accountable if just one citizen is involved in espionage that isn't even authorized by the government.

The signatories will share any intelligence relevant to the defense of the other party. If this intelligence relates to the North Pacific, it shall be provided to the Security Council of the North Pacific. If this intelligence relates to Taijitu, it shall be provided to the Citizen-Delegate or Citizen-Initiator of Taijitu.

I think we should just go with Delegate here, rather than Citizen-Delegate or Citizen-Initiator. Again, it's best to make this as non-specific as possible so that if we have a change in government in the future, we won't have to once again amend the treaty. It's safe to say regardless of our form of government, the Delegate will always be a good contact person for relaying intelligence.

Those are the only potential issues I notice so far. Otherwise a good draft.
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Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2015, 04:45:37 AM »
In terms of individual citizens, I think we would be well served with the criminalization of it. We need not make any citizen spying grounds for terminating the treaty.
                                 
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2015, 01:28:32 PM »
a Gastronomic meeting of the Cabal should be enough to "ratify" any alliance between Taijitu and TNP. No need to worry Cormac, it's one of those things that will do itself, like a cactus.

Offline Funkadelia

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2015, 02:02:56 PM »
a Gastronomic meeting of the Cabal should be enough to "ratify" any alliance between Taijitu and TNP. No need to worry Cormac, it's one of those things that will do itself, like a cactus.
Your rhetoric is starting to get a bit tired. :P
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Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2015, 03:49:18 PM »
* Eluvatar checks.

Actually most cacti are not self-pollinating.

Regardless, only the Ecclesia can ratify treaties.
                                 
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Offline Bustos

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2015, 05:27:28 PM »
a Gastronomic meeting of the Cabal should be enough to "ratify" any alliance between Taijitu and TNP. No need to worry Cormac, it's one of those things that will do itself, like a cactus.

This happens first, then their support draws the rest of Eccelsia behind the ratification.  Such is the power of the Cabal.
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Offline Khem

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2015, 05:39:29 PM »
Quote
Section Three - Cultural Cooperation
The signatories will endeavor to organize cultural events on the regional off-site forums or regional message board of one or the other party, with the goal of mutually enriching both communities.
Could we find more ways to involve cultural exchange seeing as how close we supposedly are? Perhaps grant map/RP space to each others citizens and other such exchanges more directly tied to our culture and whatever theirs is? (Am I the only one who never had any dealings with the region in direct manner?)

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Offline Bustos

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2015, 06:03:14 PM »
Quote
Section Three - Cultural Cooperation
The signatories will endeavor to organize cultural events on the regional off-site forums or regional message board of one or the other party, with the goal of mutually enriching both communities.
Could we find more ways to involve cultural exchange seeing as how close we supposedly are? Perhaps grant map/RP space to each others citizens and other such exchanges more directly tied to our culture and whatever theirs is? (Am I the only one who never had any dealings with the region in direct manner?)

That would be cool.  But I think some might not want to have to register on other boards just to maintain a RP.  Because happenings on one board's RP could influence the RP on another board.  Not to mention a need for universal RP rules for both boards to abide by.  TNP n Taijitu RP are on different levels for this to work, imho.

Unless your proposal is just map space for fun and to encourage cultural exchange by encouraging both region's members to join both boards.

However, I think trying to specify anything in particular isn't needed to be added as cultural events covers a wide range of things.  In which once passed, or mebbe even lay the groundwork now, discussion between the mapmakers, RPers, and official foreign liaisons can work towards this goal.
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Offline Khem

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2015, 06:09:22 PM »
Quote
Section Three - Cultural Cooperation
The signatories will endeavor to organize cultural events on the regional off-site forums or regional message board of one or the other party, with the goal of mutually enriching both communities.
Could we find more ways to involve cultural exchange seeing as how close we supposedly are? Perhaps grant map/RP space to each others citizens and other such exchanges more directly tied to our culture and whatever theirs is? (Am I the only one who never had any dealings with the region in direct manner?)

That would be cool.  But I think some might not want to have to register on other boards just to maintain a RP.  Because happenings on one board's RP could influence the RP on another board.  Not to mention a need for universal RP rules for both boards to abide by.  TNP n Taijitu RP are on different levels for this to work, imho.

Unless your proposal is just map space for fun and to encourage cultural exchange by encouraging both region's members to join both boards.

However, I think trying to specify anything in particular isn't needed to be added as cultural events covers a wide range of things.  In which once passed, or mebbe even lay the groundwork now, discussion between the mapmakers, RPers, and official foreign liaisons can work towards this goal.
I speak not of a shared map. We have had language of promoting cross cultural exchange previously yet nothing came of such. I was trying to think of more solid ways in which we could have cultural exchange written right into such a document.

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Offline Bustos

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2015, 06:24:53 PM »
I didnt mean a shared map either.  Look at TNP's RP Map.
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Notice Bustos, Saint Oz, Gulliver, & Floresque (Myroria) in the center?  Personally, waiting for Eluvatar to get a spot by us.   :keke:  I guess you could say its already happening, albeit on a small scale.  Better than nothing though.  Also perhaps opening events like the Garden Party and such to TNP?  Someone's gotta step up and make proposals for such.  "Change starts with you."    :drunks:
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 06:28:09 PM by Bustos »
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Offline Khem

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Re: Alliance Between Taijitu and The North Pacific
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2015, 06:37:25 PM »
Well obviously y'all know allot more about this region than I do. Care to recap other such connections that I am unaware of?

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