Is that on the irc or on the forum?
Posted on: November 14, 2007, 04:07:04 AM
On behalf of Gov, i ask that the evidence that was cited as the reason Gov was banned be made available to Gov and his defense team.
While this date is not yet final, it is my understanding that this trial will occur Friday November the 16th in #court on esper.net, beginning late that evening by GMT time.Again, I and Templarios cannot access irc. What this would do is strip Gov of his defense team. So again, we request a trial on the forum.
While this date is not yet final, it is my understanding that this trial will occur Friday November the 16th in #court on esper.net, beginning late that evening by GMT time.Again, I and Templarios cannot access irc. What this would do is strip Gov of his defense team. So again, we request a trial on the forum.
While this date is not yet final, it is my understanding that this trial will occur Friday November the 16th in #court on esper.net, beginning late that evening by GMT time.Again, I and Templarios cannot access irc. What this would do is strip Gov of his defense team. So again, we request a trial on the forum.
This point is being addressed.
The court has had the intention of holding an IRC trial from the start. There are a great number of reasons to avoid a forum trial. If you have difficulty accessing IRC the court is willing to give technical support.
I'm having similar problems.While this date is not yet final, it is my understanding that this trial will occur Friday November the 16th in #court on esper.net, beginning late that evening by GMT time.Again, I and Templarios cannot access irc. What this would do is strip Gov of his defense team. So again, we request a trial on the forum.
This point is being addressed.
The court has had the intention of holding an IRC trial from the start. There are a great number of reasons to avoid a forum trial. If you have difficulty accessing IRC the court is willing to give technical support.
Its not technical support i need, i just cant access it regularly enough and at set times every day/week. I can try but cant promise anything. Also im on GMT and Gov is 8 hours behind me so when are we going to find a time where both of us are able to be online at the same time?
Basically if the trial is on IRC, i cant be there and would have to stand down as part of the defense team.
Sorry, but it has to be on the forum unless you need to find a whole new defense team (again) for Gov.
Is that on the irc or on the forum?
Posted on: November 14, 2007, 04:07:04 AM
On behalf of Gov, i ask that the evidence that was cited as the reason Gov was banned be made available to Gov and his defense team.
If it is in #court on esper.net then I believe it is on IRC.
Your motion will be considered.
Ummmm, has this thing begun yet?
Unfortunately Khab has gone, who was the main force behind the whole effort.
It is Monday. As promised this trial begins now.
Your Honors,
I apologize for the delay, RL has kept me very busy for the time being. The prosecution will post the accusation act within the next 24 h.
Thank You for Your understanding.
combined with the relevant proof that could be found. I bring to attention that we see none before us so far and the use of the word could in the reference of evidence.
especially when providing crushing evidence is impossible. Here, we thank the delegate at the time and respect his decision as it was interest of the region. But I ask you, without crushing evidence, should this be coming to trial and should we be in the position we are in now? This cant be based on what people may have said and some people’s opinions of his posts. The forums lack the whole area of expression in the terms of body language, facial expressions and a whole other ways we use daily to understand what people means. As modern has proved, over 70% of the way we communication is none verbal and that is largely lost on the forums with the cold words on a computer screen in front of you. Yer, we accept there are those faces etc you can use but they are no substitute. It is very easy to miss-read posts of people as I have done in the past, therefore forming inaccurate views of people.
needed to constantly be reminded by his superior as to what his duties and responsibilities wereAs I said about, does it matter but has anyone thought about RL reasons affecting Gov such as kindly demonstrated by the prosecution team in requesting 24 hours extension due to RL issues?
He has managed to cause more trouble and grief in this region that I have ever seen happen in my presence in NS of more than 3 years.And where is the evidence? I see none except hear-say and personal views. I hope that is not enough in this region of freedom to ban a member or we are in a very sad state of affairs!
On or around 05 October, Limitless events received information that led him to believe that Govindia presented an urgent threat to regional security. As I was not online, he took the decision to restrict Govindia's access to the forum, subject to my review. On talking with Limi, and reviewing the evidence, I feel that this restriction was appropriate. Govindia has been informed of this by PM, and has the right to judicial review, which I invite him to take up.
So, let me get this right – if you are not good at your job, people miss-read you posts and you are annoying to certain people the Intel Department start looking at you? I don’t like that for a region that promotes freedom… Very scary!That kind of mockery shouldn't even be responded to. I already said that disturbing information was received about your client, and that is why the MoRS started checking on him. It's common practice that allows you among others to enjoy these forums. Don't mock it if you have never been there or seen it happen. Ever heard about destroyed forums? I could tell you dozens of cases.
I, Govindia, do solemnly swear that I shall at all times obey and respect the laws of Taijitu, that I shall do nothing to imperil the safety and well being of the region or any of its members, and recognize that should I fail to comply to this oath that my citizenship and the immunities and privileges it entitles may by due process of law be forfeit.. We do consider that by breaking that oath, Govindia has become a general threat for Taijitu and a particular threat to the Security of the region, those being the primar reason for which he has been banned by the administration.
[13:19] <GMT> This is the Deposition of Limitless Events regarding Govindia's banning from the forums of NS Taijitu.
[13:19] <GMT> The motivation for this is the fact that Limi will be away untill Christmas starting tomorrow due to RL,
[13:20] <GMT> Present: Limitless Events, PoD Gunner (prosecuter) and Korinn (pssistant prosecutor)
[13:21] <GMT> First of all, Limitless Events, this is an official interview, which will be used as evidence in the trial of Taijitu vs Govindia.
[13:22] <GMT> Another witness shall be invited to serve as an official proof that this interview is real.
[13:29] * Khab has joined ##taijitu
[13:29] <Khab> Sorry, I was afk
[13:30] <GMT> Welcome, Khablan
[13:30] <Khab> thank ya, Mike
[13:30] <GMT> Khablan, as a Judge, will serve as official witness that this deposition is real
[13:30] <GMT> and has not been edited
[13:30] <Khab> I'm not a judge yet
[13:30] <GMT> heh, ok
[13:31] <Khab> the vote hasn't finished yet :P
[13:31] <GMT> then the official quality will be that of simple witness
[13:32] <GMT> First of all, Limi please state your forum name and function in Taijitu
[13:32] * GMT sets mode: +v Khab
[13:32] <Limi> Limitless Events, root admin of the forum and Citizen of Taijitu
[13:33] <GMT> Please tell us since when have you joined Taijitu and what have your responsibilities been ever since.
[13:34] <Limi> I joined Taijitu when it was first created and ever since then I have been making sure that the forum continued running with as few problems as possible
[13:36] <GMT> Please describe, in your own words, your actions from the 5th of October, 2007, exactly how they have happened, namely the banning of Govindia and your later actions.
[13:39] <Limi> On October 5th, 2007 I received information from TAO showing actions that Ramaba had been copying classified threads from TWP and handing them out to other regions.
[13:39] <GMT> *notes that TAO is the delegate of NS The West Pacific
[13:40] <GMT> please go on
[13:40] <Limi> Based upon that information I banned Ramaba's access to the forum and forwarded the information to the delegate telling him the ban would be undone if asked by him and/or his cabinet.
[13:41] <Limi> I was later informed by Korinn and Khab that he required access to the Court forums as dictated by regional law.
[13:41] <Limi> I then proceeded to create a special group for Ramaba that only allowed him access to the Laws and Courts and removed his ban
[13:42] <GMT> Has the ban been total initially and has Govindia been masked accordingly by you?
[13:43] <Limi> The original ban was total and the mask Gov received was changed and streamlined by Eluvatar in order to restrict what Gov was allowed to do in regards to posting permissions
[13:47] <GMT> Were you aware that a total ban is not allowed, according to Taijituan law?
[13:48] <Limi> At the time of the ban I was not aware of that requirement
[13:49] <GMT> How long did the total ban last, before the re-masking has happened?
[13:49] * Khab is now known as Khab|KindaHere
[13:50] * Khab|KindaHere is now known as Khab
[13:52] <Limi> The ban lasted roughly six hours, but during that time Govindia never tried to access the forums and did not even access the forum until after his mask had been put into place
[13:53] <GMT> How long after the ban has the delegate of Taijitu, Flemingovia, been informed about the action?
[13:55] <Limi> he was sent a PM before I had actually put the ban in place
[13:56] <GMT> Did you originally intend to get Flemingovia's approval before acting, or have you, based on the evidence in your posession, evaluate the security risk and decided to act immediately?
[13:58] <Limi> I considered him an immediate security risk and banned him for that. Which is why I told flemingovia I would immediately remove the ban if asked to do so by him
[13:59] <GMT> How long have you known the player Ramaba, Govindia (in Taijitu) and what was your personal opinion on him before this baning?
[14:02] <Limi> I have known Govindia ever since he returned to TWP. Originally I saw him as a curious player just trying to figure out what happened while he was gone.
[14:02] <GMT> How has your opinion *if so* changed after his return in TWP and arrival in Taijitu?
[14:03] <Limi> Later my opinion of him turned sour after being in contact with him more as, in my opinion, he always had to have things his way and complained in one form or another when things didn't go his way. I see him as a person who demands people do what he wants them to do rather than ask them and has to force his way into as many things as he can.
[14:04] <GMT> Has your personal opinion influenced your administrative decision in any way?
[14:05] <Limi> no it has not. I saw him only as a threat to regional security when banning him based upon the information I received from TAO
[14:06] <Limi> and just so you know he officially returned to TWP on Jun 26, 2006
[14:06] <GMT> Thank you for that detail, noted. Now about the evidence which has led to the ban.
[14:08] <GMT> You have acted based upon evidence of Ramaba/Govindia's actions in a foreign region. Please tell us what your reasoning was that Govindia was performing the same illegal actions (that of passing information / copying threads from Taijitu's forums to other regions) in here.
[14:10] <Limi> The information I received stated actions Govindia had done in multiple regions. There was also the fact that he had attempted to get a position in multiple areas that each had their own private sub forum
[14:11] <GMT> Please be more specific in identifying potential materials relevant to the security of Taijitu that Govindia could have access to.
[14:14] <Limi> he currently had access to the private ambassador sub forum
[14:15] <Limi> but had also expressed interest in joining the army and becoming a deputy minister in addition to applying to be a Senator and becoming a recruiter
[14:17] * GMT has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[14:18] * GMT has joined ##taijitu
[14:18] * ChanServ sets mode: +o GMT
[14:19] <GMT> Back, connection dropped
[14:20] <GMT> Please re-post the answer to the last question.
[14:21] <Limi> he currently had access to the private ambassador subforum
[14:21] <Limi> but had also expressed interest in joining the army and becoming a deputy minister in addition to applying to be a Senator and becoming a recruiter
[14:22] <GMT> thank you.
[14:22] <GMT> Tell us if there is any direct evidence of Govindia having performed the actions identified above.
[14:23] <Limi> it should aslo be noted that after being denied as a recruiter he continued to press multiple members of the region to get him to be a recruiter
[14:23] <GMT> noted, please answer the question.
[14:24] <Limi> there is no direct evidence of him committing the action as there is no way to log if a topic is downloaded
[14:24] <GMT> Is there evidence of threads or info copied from Taijitu and posted in another region?
[14:26] <Limi> there is no evidence that he copied threads from Taijitu and gave it to another region because information like that would be kept as secret as possible in the region he gave it to
[14:27] <GMT> Are you saying that such copied evidence would never see the light of public forums in another region but be passed on in a manner which would make it impossible for us to verify that, with the exception of a blunder or a direct testimony?
[14:33] <Limi> The only way that information would become public is for a high ranking official in the region it was given to commit treason against their own region. However, information of this nature is only given to a very few select members.
[14:35] <GMT> Interview suspended for about an hour, as Limi has to go afk for that time.
[14:35] <GMT> We will resume upon return.
[14:35] <GMT> None of the information presented here is to leave this room.
[14:36] <Korinn> understood
[14:36] <Khab> Agreed.
[14:36] <GMT> 7 *Session temporarily interrupted*
[14:49] * GMT has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[14:49] * GMT has joined ##taijitu
[14:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o GMT
[16:05] <Limi> back
[16:06] * Khab is here.
[16:07] * GMT is here
[16:24] <GMT> 3Resuming
[16:24] <GMT> We're again in session.
[16:26] <GMT> Limi, we were discussing the potential threat presented by Govindia. You are known as an intel specialist in NS. In that capacity and based on the evidence that Givondia was performing illegal actions in other NS regions, please tell us how high did you evaluate the risk presented by him and explain us your judgement.
[16:28] <Limi> Based on the facts that he had done this in another region and his attempts to gain access to restricted areas I would say that there is a very high threat.
[16:28] <GMT> How would you evaluate the damage that Govindia could have inflicted on Taijitu?
[16:31] <Limi> If he had received access to any other restricted areas I would say the damage could be very severe since 2 of those areas contain private government documents and the other contains all the information on Taijitu's military. I see this also as a preventive measure to keep him from ever having access to any of those areas
[16:31] <GMT> How would you define your action in administrative terms?
[16:32] <Limi> I would define this as a preventive measure done to prevent any threads on the forum from being copied.
[16:35] <GMT> How trustworthy are the sources that provided you the evidence?
[16:37] <Limi> I consider the sources I received the information to be extremely. The player who gave me the information would only act and pass the information onto me if he was 100% sure of what it contained and what his actions would be
[16:41] <GMT> Would you define your administrative action, although based on evidence concerning Govindia's actions and no direct evidence of his actions in Taijitu, as reasonable in order to protect Taijtu's security?
[16:42] * Eluvatar|Away is now known as Eluvatar
[16:42] <Limi> I would say it is very reasonable because I also passed the information to flemingovia and stated the actions would be undone if he asked. Upon coming on he publicly stated his approval of this action based upon the information that was received
[16:43] <GMT> You might have misunderstood the question.
[16:44] <Eluvatar> oh
[16:44] <Eluvatar> I shouldn't be listening in on this, should I
[16:44] <Limi> you can
[16:44] <Eluvatar> I won't read my log then
[16:44] * Eluvatar has left ##taijitu (Leaving)
[16:44] <GMT> Heh. This is a deposition, Elu can verify its authenticity.
[16:44] <GMT> However
[16:46] <GMT> I was asking if you feel that a preemptive action was necessary and if you stand by your decision, although no direct evidence of Govindia's malicious intentions is at hand. The Delegate's approval is certainly a plus but I am interested in your judgment at the moment.
[16:48] <Limi> I feel that action was necessary in order to protect the security of the region as soon as possible
[16:48] <GMT> Thank you, Limi. Is there anything you would like to add to this?
[16:48] * Eluvatar has joined ##taijitu
[16:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Eluvatar
[16:49] <Eluvatar> okay, I'll log, but I won't read it before trial.
[16:49] <Limi> nothing I feel needs to be added
[16:49] <Eluvatar> feel free to repeat anything you said while I was out of the room
[16:50] <GMT> Since this log is trial testimony you will review it anyway.
[16:51] <Eluvatar> I'll review it at the right time
[16:53] <GMT> I think that having seen this testimony before the cases are presented is not of relevance for your fairness. They are rather facts detailing Flemingovia's public statement.
[16:53] <Eluvatar> :/
[16:53] <GMT> Plus your logging can testify to the veridicity of this interview
[16:53] <Eluvatar> that is the utility
[16:53] <Eluvatar> you can present the info and I can /then/ cross-check with my logs
[16:53] <Eluvatar> in court
[16:55] <GMT> indeed
[16:56] <Eluvatar> Until then I intend to not read it
[16:56] <Eluvatar> just making that clear lol
[16:59] <GMT> lol
[16:59] <GMT> 7 Interview Session ended at 11.35 pm GMT +3*[/quote
Your Honors,Govindia's Oath:
in our opinion the defendant can be accused of breaking the following paragraphs of The Taijitan Code of Laws, Article I: Criminal Code:
I, Govindia, do solemnly swear that I shall at all times obey and respect the laws of Taijitu, that I shall do nothing to imperil the safety and well being of the region or any of its members, and recognize that should I fail to comply to this oath that my citizenship and the immunities and privileges it entitles may by due process of law be forfeit.
While I feel responding passionately to the case arguments of the Defense or Prosecution is appropriate, I must remind both sides to remain civil, to refrain from using insulting language or making sarcastic (or serious but still irrelevant) suppositions, and to refrain from posing personal questions to the Justices.
The defenders of a traitor and a troll asking to have the prosecution's statement censored, that sounds indeed delicious....
*Sighs* Yes, I am very curious about the input on such a request, too. The defenders of a traitor and a troll asking to have the prosecution's statement censored, that sounds indeed delicious....
If I look at it again, I actually feel that my tone might have been a bit too mild....QuoteYour Honors,Govindia's Oath:
in our opinion the defendant can be accused of breaking the following paragraphs of The Taijitan Code of Laws, Article I: Criminal Code:QuoteI, Govindia, do solemnly swear that I shall at all times obey and respect the laws of Taijitu, that I shall do nothing to imperil the safety and well being of the region or any of its members, and recognize that should I fail to comply to this oath that my citizenship and the immunities and privileges it entitles may by due process of law be forfeit.
No relevance indeed. :-X
2. The dissemination of private materials of any Citizen of Taijitu as defined in Section 3 of this article shall be forbidden, excepting where authorized by that Citizen or Citizens, or by a warrant of the Supreme Court of Taijitu issued on probable cause.... makes anyone a threat to regional security.
4. Excessive and unnecessary posting with the intent to disrupt or provoke shall be forbidden.
6. The harassment of any person shall be forbidden.
First of all please make the effort to address me with my full name: it is PoD Gunner. Thank You.I will, but would you please make an effort to make note that Gov was NOT banned. He was given a restriction.
As I myself have wasted my (rather few) time in countless occasions and waited around for the defendant, you can do the same, for a matter of days and hours. I have waited months.Keep in mind that we have as well. Since the very beginning, the defense has been asking for a forum trial.
Ah, I see I failed to address one of Templarios' questions yesterday, for which I apologize. The Defense will indeed be granted an additional period in which to present their case equal to that granted to the Prosecution.Thank you, Al.
2. The dissemination of private materials of any Citizen of Taijitu as defined in Section 3 of this article shall be forbidden, excepting where authorized by that Citizen or Citizens, or by a warrant of the Supreme Court of Taijitu issued on probable cause.can constitute a potential danger to the security of the region. I must assume that this lack of understanding also derives from the fact that the defense team has a rather limited understanding of Intel Operations in NS and the way they work, for which I would kindly ask them again to refer to the answers of Limitless Events.
Quote
First of all please make the effort to address me with my full name: it is PoD Gunner. Thank You.
I will, but would you please make an effort to make note that Gov was NOT banned. He was given a restriction.
< 07GMT > --- Interview with Flemingovia, Former Delegate of Taijitu on the topic of Govindia's baning from the region -----
< 07GMT > this interview will be logged and can be presented as testimony in the trial of Taijitu vs Govindia
< 07GMT > First of all, Sir, please state your forum name and position in Taijitu.
< 12flemingovia > My forum name is Flemingovia, and my Taijituan nation is "Taijituan Flemingovia". I do not hold any official position in Taijitu at the moment other than Senator.
< 12flemingovia > At the time of the banning of Govindia I was delegate following the resignation of Sovereign Dixie.
< 07GMT > Thank You. You were Delegate of the region at the time that the ... let's call it forum restriction of Govindia has taken place. Can you please tell me, in your own words, how you came to know about this action from the 5th of October, 2007 and what your reaction was.
< 12flemingovia > I had been aware for some time that a number of people, in many regions, had concerns about Govindia's conduct, motives and trustworthiness. This seemed to me to have two main foci: First, there were concerns that he was a destructive presence in many regions he was involved in. I had seen for myself how a number of people, for example, left IRC channels vowing never to return so long as he was present. Second: There were grave concerns about his trustworthiness and he is regarded in many quarters as a security risk.
< 12flemingovia > on or around 5th October I was approached by Limitless events.
< 12flemingovia > I do not have a log of that conversation (maybe Limi does?) so you will have to forgive me if my memory is sketchy. Limi said that he had restricted Gov's forum access because, as root admin, Gov was considered to be a security risk. Limi did not give specific details, but said that he was acting on intel information he had received.
< 12flemingovia > I will repeat to you what I said to the defence:
< 12flemingovia > n such situations, my instinct as delegate is always to look to the interests of the region as a whole. Having reviewed the evidence from TWP and Taijitu, and discussed the matter with Limi, I concluded that this individual was a credible risk to the security and well being of Taijitu. Therefore I confirmed the ban.
< 12flemingovia > My reaction?
< 12flemingovia > I was not terribly surprised. By this point I had got to know Gov somewhat, and personally had grown uneasy about his conduct and suspicious as to his motives and trustworthiness.
< 12flemingovia > Nothing in my experience of Govindia since 5th October, in Taijitu or other regions, has convinced me that the steps taken on 5th October were not the correct ones and in the best interests of Taijitu.
< 07GMT > I would like to define a bit, for those who are unaware of it, to your NS expertise in matter of security and Intel.
< 07GMT > Could you please tell me what your experience in these domains is.
< 12flemingovia > I am root admin on a feeder forum
< 12flemingovia > And it is suggested in some quarters that I am head of Intel for that same feeder.
< 12flemingovia > the North Pacific Intel Agency
< 12flemingovia > I have been involved in espionage many times in NS.
< 12flemingovia > Both in terms of managing agents and acting as a sleeper myself. (Not on behalf of TNP, by the way)
< 12flemingovia > I am well used to evaluating Intel and security threats.
< 07GMT > Thank You.
< 07GMT > In this capacity, could you please tell me, more to the point, why you do believe that the defendant Govindia posed a threat to the regional security, from your point of view?
< 12flemingovia > I think I would have to preface that by saying that I am not involved in Intel in Taijitu, nor am I a forum admin with access to IP addresses etc. So to an extent I have to trust those who do have such involvement and access.
< 12flemingovia > I would also need to say that Intel is a shadowy world - it often depends on judgment calls based on instinct as much as proof. And as delegate I chose to trust the judgment of Limi whose access and involvement in this matter was far greater than mine.
< 07GMT > Thank you for these considerations.
< 07GMT > Based on what you were shown in terms of "proof" by the Root Limitless Events, how did you evaluate the threat posed by Govindia?
< 12flemingovia > But, to the matter in hand: I was informed that Gov had been poking around and passing on stuff in various regions, including Taijitu, and also posting and passing on information from various private forum areas.
< 12flemingovia > There was also passed Intel evidence from TWP which I am not at liberty to share, since it was passed on in confidence, and would cause a major diplomatic argument with a feeder if it were to be made public.
< 12flemingovia > I think, based on my recollection of conversations at the time with Limi, that the forum restriction was as much about neutralising a threat as it was about punishing an action.
< 07GMT > We are aware of those happenings and the TWP Delegate TAO has not been able to allow such evidence to be made public from the very same reason.
< 07GMT > Flemingovia, with Taijitu's best interest at heart, please tell us again
< 07GMT > do you consider Govindia's "forum restriction" to be a correct decision and in the best interest of the region?
< 12flemingovia > Absolutely.
< 12flemingovia > As a foundered nation we are not in danger of coups.
< 12flemingovia > BUT
< 12flemingovia > A NS community is a very fragile thing.
< 12flemingovia > in a forum environment one person can wreak havoc, if unchecked.
< 12flemingovia > Taijitu has gone more than the extra mile with Gov. He has been offered support, help, and counsel for months.
< 12flemingovia > And all he brings is discord and trouble.
< 07GMT > Is there anything else you would like to add?
< 12flemingovia > Even if there was not the matter of his being a security risk, I do not think the decision to limit him would be a wrong one. Sometimes government has to -put the needs of the community before that of an individual.
< 12flemingovia > One last thing: No doubt there are those who will look at the above and say that those in authority in Taijitu acted in a draconian manner, and poor Govindia has been badly, even illegally, treated. I would add that in the year I have been in Taijitu any individual restrictions have been very rare events,
< 12flemingovia > and taken after a long period of soul searching. This is not a high-handed region.
< 07GMT > Thank You, Sir.
< 07GMT > ---- End of Interview Session with Flemingovia ---
< 07GMT > --- Interview Session with Korinn on the topic of Govindia's baning from the region ---
< 07GMT > this interview will be logged and can be presented as testimony in the trial of Taijitu vs Govindia
< 07GMT > First of all, Sir, please state your forum name and position in Taijitu.
< 06Korinn > I'm Korinn. I'm Vice-Delegate, Minister of External Affairs, and a Senator.
< 07GMT > Could you also please state how long you have been in Taijitu and what your different responsabilities in the region have been?
< 06Korinn > I joined Taijitu on it's first day after being invited by Eluvatar on IRC. I became a Senator in February and was later asked to be TGR's Deputy Minister of External Affairs. He experienced RL problems and I took the reins. I have been Minister since then. As the minister I maintain the embassies and assign ambassadors to foreign regions. I also write the Regional Update. I have also been a recruiter for many months.
< 07GMT > Your NS history hasn't though started with Taijitu, so I assume that we can rely also on your previous experience in matters of regional security and international relations. Is that correct?
< 06Korinn > Yes
< 07GMT > There is yet another aspect of your role in Taijitu I would like to show to the Court.
< 07GMT > You have been not just a name on a list of Ministers, but a very living presence in this region. In fact, if I recall correctly, your incipient enthusiasm has also been met with a critical eye by some and you have undergone a security-check.
< 07GMT > What does this region mean to You, Sir?
< 06Korinn > This region is the only reason I still play NS. Were it not for the friends I have made here this game would mean nothing. In fact I had thought of quitting until Elu invited me here. I would defend Taijitu and my friends in it with every fiber of my being. They are more than friends, they are an extended family to me. I love the friends I've made and I love this region.
* GMT smiles
< 07GMT > Thank You.
< 06Korinn > You're Welcome.
< 07GMT > Well, Sir, let us come to the topic of this here interview.
< 07GMT > You are aware of the forum-restriction of the player Govindia.
< 06Korinn > I am.
< 07GMT > Could you please, in your own words, describe for us your personal experience with the above-mentioned player?
< 06Korinn > Well, I have dealt with him on 2 levels. Socially on IRC and Professionally within the region. He applied to be an Ambassador when he came to Taijitu. I had previous knowledge of his behaviour in other regions, but I figured I'd give him a chance. He immediately shirked his duties as Ambassador, which made me quite angry. He begged for days about it and when I gave him the position, he took his sweet time to do the job assigned.
< 06Korinn > On a social level, he was always nagging people and myself about something. He is stubborn and refuses to drop anything until people agree with him. He would be asked repeatedly to change topics, but would always refuse. He even once ridiculed something I hold dear IRL. He is insulting at times to peoples choice of lifestyle or choices they make in there life if they don't match his.
< 07GMT > How would you evaluate the effects of his presence in Taijitu?
< 06Korinn > Completely and utterly negative. He has made life hard for more than one person in the region. Causing unneeded stress and suffering.
< 06Korinn > His pre-trial behavior alone proves he cares nothing for this region.
< 07GMT > Do you believe that he has been treated fair by Taijitu's government and administration, considering this situation, prior to his "forum restriction"?
< 06Korinn > I do. He was given many chances to change his behavior. He was even given an opportunity to do a job and he pretty much squandered it. In my opinion all he wants is fancy titles.
< 07GMT > One last question : How do you evaluate the accusation of 'security threat' that has been labeled on Govindia upon his 'forum restriction'?
< 06Korinn > I see that as being a two part thing. On one side, he is a possible in-game threat. He could pass information to other regions if allowed access. There have been rumors, and they might just be that, but rumors that he has already spied on anther region once before. The second side is a threat to the players themselves. He has pestered some people to the point that they don't want to be around. That could seriously hurt Taijitu.
< 07GMT > Thank You, Sir.
< 07GMT > ---- End of Interview Session with Korinn---
As TAO, I have been contacted by several female players (members of TWP and players outside of TWP who have heard of these proceedings) describing how they felt they were being “stalked by Ramaba” because of his constant requests for personal information, his repeated harassment through multiple cyber media, and his not-so-veiled sexual innuendos. These ladies had no reason to lie. Most now block Ramaba from their IM and email. One young lady said she had to block his phone.
Ram is blocked and banned from most of the feeder IRCs and from several smaller ones, too. In these arenas, he is reported to be rude and/or crude beyond the norm. And many other players in multiple regions have discovered on their own that he uses logs from IRC and chats and trades such conversations to others.
Regarding IC matters, as TAO I find that Govindia has no honor. When he was denied membership into the Order of Gryphons under his own name in TWP, he applied under a different name and from a different region. He is now an applicant-non-gratis in the Order.
When the trial of Ramaba was happening in TWP, Ramaba (Govindia) harassed forum members via PM to support and defend him. Many of those who had previously supported him found this harassment to be “over the top” and they chose to support the case against him instead.
Govindia is a loose cannon who presumes he is owed position and power but he doesn’t really do anything to earn it … or the TRUST that such position involves.
Govindia exhibits NO restraint in sharing PMs with a third party and without permission of the other player. He uses such privileged information as he would a trading card to secure personal prestige. In most governments, we call that treason.
IC and OOC he is a detestable player and TWP suffers with him in our midst.
Bottom line: he was removed from TWP and the region is a much better place because of it. But TWP is preparing to take further action against Govindia because of his sneaking into our forum under a different name and using a proxy even though he is banned. So it would seem that Govindia is not only a problematic player, he is astupid[less diligent] one.
Govindia was first banned from the forum for constant and consistent disobedience of forum administration, and for violating forum policy, rules and regulations. He was then banned a second time for not only repeat offenses, but also for circumventing the ban already in effect, in a deceptive, fraudulent manner.
Detestible IC and OOC. Yes. To me, Govindia is one of the absolute worst sort of individuals, both in an online setting and in a real-life setting. I don’t know him in rl, but, based on msn conversations, I can only get a picture of what sort of person he is when he’s not behind a key board.
Govindia arrived in the South Pacific in August 2005 as Marionetsvia. At first glance, he appeared ready and willing to help. Despite warnings from TEP, we allowed him to remain, but kept a close eye on him. Fudgie even went so far as to give him a grungy job for the government going through old rp threads to work measures out.
For a long time he didn’t really take part in rp in TSP. Of course, we don’t have a lot of rp, but that’s okay. Govindia claimed, several times, to be working on rp guidelines for large-scale actions, but we never saw any result of this work. When he did take part in rp, he tend to step over people, god-mod, and then have a minor fit before leaving the rp.
The biggest problem was in his personal dealings with others. We learned very quickly that he was stalking one of the members of the region. We investigated the situation and suspended him for a month. On his return, he was to have no further contact with this member whatsoever. He never, in all our investigations of this first incident, admitted to stalking her, or that his attentions weren’t wanted. Instead, like an abuser, he put the blame on that member. She began participating less and less in our forums, btw.
He returned and appeared to be towing the straight and narrow. However, that was a sham. He returned to stalking the member and fell in with a group of dissidents in the region in December 2005/January 2006. After we learned of his renewed stalking, Fudgie and I had numerous conversations with him. Fudgie was extremely pissed at the man and I learned, from conversations with him, that he was stalking women rt, and, again, never saw that his attentions weren’t wanted. In the end, we had to ban him; he claimed, of course, that it was part of being a member of the opposition, but it was nothing of the sort.
From msn conversations, he seemed to have delusions of his own grandeur. He considered himself more intelligent than any he spoke with, treated people poorly and rudely, and always refused to see where he might be at fault.
Frankly, we were better off as a region without him. If he could be banned from NS altogether, I would be a happy happy man.
If necessary go ahead and quote me. I'm all for deeting him from the NS world
If what you are saying is for the defense to make their argument now, we may continue.
Defense counsel, I believe that the balls in your court.
*Grins and counts on his fingers as to not make any mistakes: 1 day of delay from the Prosecution = big issues, Judges worried, where is the world coming to etc ; 5 days lost because of the defense team (I thought there were two defense counsels and as it seems Govindia can still talk for himself) = minor difficulties, everybody is happy*
The person that you know as Govindia has asked me to make a statement detailing my views regarding his character.
I’ll be honest; he has got into a lot of trouble in a number of regions. He can be arrogant at times, and disrespectful of the chain of command. My opinion is shared by a number of people, and I’m sure my opinion is the same as many who will be reading this statement.
However, despite his flaws, he is not a traitor. Traitors intentionally threaten the security of their region. Govindia is dedicated to improving every region he is a member of, even if his conduct can be improved. I am aware of the hard work he has put into improving the regions of England and Feudal Japan. Govindia has proved to be a very active, capable, and hard-working Foreign Minister in England, for example.
I am aware of what happened in The West Pacific, and I honestly believe that the release of sensitive information by Govindia was an unintentional mistake. I believe The West Pacific recognised that what Govindia did was a mistake, by the fact that they allowed him to remain in government after judgement had been passed on him.
I know Govindia well, and I know that he has your region’s best interests at heart. I would also like to say that I am the Minister of Defence and Intelligence of England. It is my job to assess whether someone is a risk to England’s security, and I have thoroughly assessed whether Govindia is a threat. If I had found Govindia to be a threat, I would have asked the English government to take action, and I certainly wouldn’t have written this statement supporting Govindia.
Thank you.
New Drakensberg Range
Minister of Defence and Intelligence
England
(2007-12-15 10:20:45) Govindia: Ithania, this is Osafune, Defence Counsel for me in the trial of Taijitu v. Govindia
(2007-12-15 10:21:06) Osafune: yo
(2007-12-15 10:21:13) Govindia: Osafune, this is Ithania, Town Councillor and Deputy Foreign Minister in The West Pacific, and Deputy Foreign Minister in England
(2007-12-15 10:21:14) Ithania: Greetings, I wish I was meeting under happier circumstances
(2007-12-15 10:21:28) Osafune: brb
(2007-12-15 10:21:36) Ithania: Slight correction, not really a Deputy anymore, I just help out when asked.
(2007-12-15 10:21:46) Govindia: in TWP?
(2007-12-15 10:21:56) Ithania: Yes, sorry
(2007-12-15 10:22:36) Osafune: back
(2007-12-15 10:22:38) Govindia: no worries. Thank you for the clarification.
(2007-12-15 10:22:44) Govindia: welcome back Osafune
(2007-12-15 10:23:03) Govindia: Now, Osafune, do you want to begin the questioning?
(2007-12-15 10:23:03) Osafune: not "anymore"?
(2007-12-15 10:23:16) Osafune: um sure, I suppose
(2007-12-15 10:23:38) Ithania: Oh dear, take your time. I can wait as long as it takes
(2007-12-15 10:24:04) Osafune: Ok, well let's get things rolling
(2007-12-15 10:24:23) Govindia: Osafune will be asking most of the questions.
(2007-12-15 10:24:26) Osafune: Please state your UN nation and region.
(2007-12-15 10:25:14) Ithania: My UN Nation is The Ice Queendom of Ithania which is situated in England, but most of my activity is as a member of The West Pacific.
(2007-12-15 10:26:41) Osafune: Thank you, and what is your forum name on The West Pacific's forum?
(2007-12-15 10:26:51) Ithania: It's Ithania
(2007-12-15 10:27:43) Osafune: In the West Pacific, have you ever held a leadership position?
(2007-12-15 10:29:23) Ithania: Could you define 'leadership'? Is a member of the legislature a leadership position or are we strictly referring to executive powers such as the Ministers?
(2007-12-15 10:30:19) Osafune: Executive, legislature, judicial, all branches of the government.
(2007-12-15 10:31:19) Ithania: I was a Senator for a short time and Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs under Schwarz. I'm presently a Town Councillor but that's everything.
(2007-12-15 10:33:21) Osafune: Do you recall the trail of Ramaba vs. The West Pacific?
(2007-12-15 10:34:09) Osafune: or as Ramaba goes by in Taijitu, Govindia?
(2007-12-15 10:35:27) Ithania: I do, I was part of the defence counsel. Though I would like to note that I didn't perform that duty because of any personal bias towards Ramaba/Govindia, I wished to stay out of the whole messy affair. I did it in the interest of providing legal representation for a person because others weren't willing.
(2007-12-15 10:36:59) Osafune: Were you a friend of Ramaba?
(2007-12-15 10:36:59) Govindia: Were you also willing to have done it to aid me as a friend in terms of providing legal aid?
(2007-12-15 10:38:17) Ithania: I am a friend and I continue to be a friend, to a degree I consider myself a 'teacher'. I know he has a fundamentally good soul that just needs nurturing.
(2007-12-15 10:38:41) Ithania: As for legal aid, I provided it primarily because I believe all people deserve representation. My friendship wasn't the primary motivation.
(2007-12-15 10:41:27) Osafune: One of the charges in the TWP trial was that he was stalking other players, primarily women. Ramaba has stated to me that they had claimed to have evidence of this claim, but it was never presented during the trial. Can you verify this?
(2007-12-15 10:46:05) Ithania: No evidence at all was publicly provided in the Court but there was never a need to provide evidence, the Court ultimately ruled that all bans confirmed by the Senate cannot be illegal. I think it's also important to note that there were specific cases explained to the Senate that did explain things such as a 'sting operation' (though no evidence was provided to prove they occur, either because
(2007-12-15 10:46:11) Ithania: it is sensitive or doesn't exist)
(2007-12-15 10:46:25) Ithania: Sorry about the lil line break, darn MSN.
(2007-12-15 10:46:32) Govindia: no worries.
(2007-12-15 10:46:37) Osafune: No problem
(2007-12-15 10:47:43) Osafune: So no evidenc was provided to the senate either?
(2007-12-15 10:47:51) Osafune: evidence*
(2007-12-15 10:48:00) Govindia: no evidence of this "sting operation" that is?
(2007-12-15 10:49:04) Govindia: For the purposes of this testimony could you also please confirm your gender?
(2007-12-15 10:49:19) Ithania: No evidence to confirm that it took place because such information was either sensitive or didn't exist.
(2007-12-15 10:50:17) Ithania: Oh my, odd question but I'm female. I'm afraid I'm trying to be rather formal and transactional so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't notice. *chuckles*
(2007-12-15 10:50:27) Govindia: no worries
(2007-12-15 10:51:36) Govindia: In the trial in TWP, what argument did you try to make, and on what basis did you do it off of?
(2007-12-15 10:54:11) Ithania: The defence counsel attempted to argue that the Delegate must prove that an individual is a "clear and present danger" (Bill of Rights) to regional security when they are asked to justify their decision to ban an individual. We argued that concrete evidence must exist to establish that or else a ban must be overturned.
(2007-12-15 10:54:52) Govindia: Is there anything else you argued for the case ?
(2007-12-15 10:57:17) Ithania: Not that I can remember sadly but my memory is quite bad sometimes. We attempted to show that the burden of proof was on the Delegate, the BoR suggested that... except ultimately all bans are legal if the Senate supports them via vote so it proved to be quite irrelevant
(2007-12-15 10:57:54) Govindia: Have you ever been on Taijitu's forums prior to the trial?
(2007-12-15 10:59:33) Ithania: No, I've never had an interest in that community. The only reason I did this time was because I was asked to help several times.
(2007-12-15 11:00:23) Osafune: Are you aware of the current case against Gov?
(2007-12-15 11:00:45) Osafune: Govindia vs. Taijitu?
(2007-12-15 11:01:01) Ithania: I am now
(2007-12-15 11:01:05) Govindia: ok
(2007-12-15 11:02:05) Ithania: Are we going to spend hours establishing that I'm aware of the trial or is there something of relevancy to be asked? I dearly apologise for impatience but I prefer efficiency over unnecessary verbiage.
(2007-12-15 11:02:59) Osafune: The TWP trial was brought up several times in the current case in Taijitu
(2007-12-15 11:04:46) Osafune: Have you seen anything from Tajitu that would be deemed top secret?
(2007-12-15 11:05:48) Osafune: or that in your opinion, you would feel the government in Taijitu would deem top secret?
(2007-12-15 11:06:54) Ithania: Oh goshums no, nothing has been offered and I'd never accept anyway.
(2007-12-15 11:07:11) Govindia: Fair enough.
(2007-12-15 11:08:42) Govindia: We do thank you for your patience as we are trying to ask relevant questions to this trial.
Prosecutor of Taijitu,
It has come to my notice that Govindia had been put on trial and I hereby wish to make a character statement.
Although I haven’t known Govindia for that long I know a good person when I meet one. He’s a kind, sweet and a considerate man. I don’t say he is perfect, because no one is. He enjoys getting to know new people and is straight forward about that. When he thinks of something, a personal question or something completely different, he’s straight forward in asking that person about it. Sometimes this may seem threatening to that person. But I assure you he means well. He only has good intentions in getting to know that person.
Also I don’t see any reason why he should not be trusted. He never gave me any reason to doubt his trust. Think about that for a minute. Did he really said something that made him less trustworthy?
I hope you don’t rush to conclusions about his personality/character too soon. Get to know him first and you see what I see: a good man worth of your trust.
With kind regards,
Nagabeth
Equilism citizen
College member
(Former Chancellor of Internal Affairs)
*laughs* You should be a Journalist. As I said, I believe not both your counsels have been hit by snowstorms, I am not gonna argue about Osafune's situation (although he was on-line less than 12 and again 3 hours ago and the snow-storms have ceased for about three days now) as I am not aware of it, all I was doing was pointing out how dangerous your habits of crying out "The Wolf! The Wolf" are, for as I was also kept away by RL for a far shorter period some were already crying out in the torments of terror that the schedule of the trial should be respected. You have a history of inventing excuses and I for one will not overlook that. It just looks like the other day, Osafune had other areas of interest to post into. I would rather be willing to accept that the defense is not ready than hear such excuses and than also be lectured on decency and courtesy by a soon-to-be universal pariah of the international community.
On a second note, unless you have forgotten you are a defendant in this trial and asking the Prosecution to do anything or not to, is not one of your privileges, please try to remember who you are and act accordingly. As far as I see, you could make those statements yourself, since your defense team seems incapacitated to do so by the weather outside.
I would also petition the Court to ask the defendant to remove from his forum Signature the indication of his past representative function of the region, as Ambassador of Taijitu to the region Exodus, I believe he has not only been removed from that position, but I also think that it is a mockery of this region.
Slight correction, not really a Deputy anymore, I just help out when asked.so you can edit and correct the capacity of the witness. What the evidence is concerned, the witness states clearly:
it is sensitive or doesn't exist, thus giving us no information to either of the two possibilities, just what we already knew: evidence containing personal info will never be made public by responsible administrators. Furthermore, we would wish to congratulate the defense on beautiful interrogation skills
Ithania: Are we going to spend hours establishing that I'm aware of the trial or is there something of relevancy to be asked? I dearly apologise for impatience but I prefer efficiency over unnecessary verbiage.but I must confess that the last lines of the interview have left me speechless:
(2007-12-15 11:04:46) Osafune: Have you seen anything from Tajitu that would be deemed top secret?...No idea what that could be about.
(2007-12-15 11:05:48) Osafune: or that in your opinion, you would feel the government in Taijitu would deem top secret?
The above testimony clearly shows that no sensitive information was copied from Taijtu to elsewhere, and that no evidence showing Govindia was a threat to TWP security was shown to prove he was a threat, may well sound nice and be funny, but is in no way conform to the content of the evidence presented before this Court. Our personal interpretation of Ithania's testimony is that it is that of a person with immense patience and a great heart, but a person who had absolutely no access to any relevant info about Govinida in general and his doings in TWP in particular.
Ithania: Oh goshums no, nothing has been offered and I'd never accept anyway.*Smiles*.
Although I haven’t known Govindia for that long I know a good person when I meet one.^ I would consider that an excellent example as to what capacity the witness from Equilism brings before this Court. I would however suggest that witnesses with at least a bit of expertise, resulting either from access to information, experience or acquaintance with the defendant be selected, as this is but an attempt not to appear empty-handed before the Honorable Court. There is no point to fabricate witnesses, we know our way around in NationStates for a while now. I myself have never received such a letter (as I see it is addressed to me), and and had I received it, since it is coming from the official of a region *the only region actually* who has chosen to cease any relations with Taijitu as a region because we have been honest, I would have frankly disregarded it. Naive, at best.
Also I don’t see any reason why he should not be trusted. He never gave me any reason to doubt his trust. Think about that for a minute. Did he really said something that made him less trustworthy?we must bow our heads and admit that none of us are perfect. C'mon!
< 07GMT > --- Interview Session with Meridianland on the topic of Govindia's baning from the region ---
< 07GMT > this interview will be logged and can be presented as testimony in the trial of Taijitu vs Govindia
< 07GMT > First of all, Milady, please state your name and position in Taijitu.
< 13meri > My name is Meridianland, I'm currently Speaker of the Senate, I also have worked as an assistant to the Minister of Security over a couple of different administrations
< 07GMT > Thank You.
< 13meri > You're welcome.
< 07GMT > Could you please tell us if you have entertained any private talks with the player known in Taijitu as Govindia?
< 07GMT > And if so,
< 07GMT > has the topic of his reason to be in Taijitu been ever discussed?
< 13meri > Yes I have, and yes it has.
< 07GMT > Can you please tell us in your own words, what was discussed?
< 13meri > Many things. He always seemed to be complaining about one thing or another going on in Taijitu. One topic that emerged that pertains to this trial is the subject of his UN nation.
< 07GMT > Please, go on.
< 13meri > At the time that we began discussing the subject, and i believe to this day, he has refused to disclose the location or identity of his UN. Since in this game, each player is allowed to have only one UN, and UNs can in many instances, particularly in military and intelligence contexts represent power, the dedication of one's UN is usually an indication of a player's loyalty.
< 13meri > He always used to ask me if i trusted him. He seemed a bit obsessed with it.
< 13meri > At first I responded that I could not trust him because of the secretness surrounding his UN.
< 07GMT > What happened after that?
< 13meri > He made it clear to me that he understood my position, but would not reveal it to me.
< 07GMT > Can you be a bit more explicit?
< 07GMT > What does that mean, for those not familiar with Intel "talk"?
< 13meri > I asked him if he was working for Taijitu, he said no, he was working for another region. I told him I could not trust his motives in the region, then.
< 13meri > is that what you're asking?
< 07GMT > Yes, thank you for clearing that up.
< 07GMT > You are a player with a huge amount of experience in that domain: Intel, undercover operations etc.
< 07GMT > What is your personal evaluation of Govindia and how do you see his banning from Taijitu?
< 13meri > I believe Govindia to be a threat to Tajitu in many areas: the military, security-wise, and socially he has repeatedly acted badly. His abysmal social behavior could very well be a strategy to undermine the region's stability.
< 13meri > I support his banning.
< 07GMT > Thank You, Milady.
If what you are saying is for the defense to make their argument now, we may continue.
Defense counsel, I believe that the balls in your court.
If what you are saying is for the defense to make their argument now, we may continue.
Defense counsel, I believe that the balls in your court.
Honorable Court, we have yet to finish presenting our evidence and yet the Prosecution is still posting away.
May we have time to present all our evidence without interruption?
Since there is no provision in the Laws or Constitution for a grand jury or any similar procedure, it is appropriate that the Prosecution present its specific charges here. Furthermore, the Government is perfectly within its rights to bring to trial a Citizen who has violated any portion of the Constitution, Laws, or any Oaths he might have taken; no rule states that a trial must have one charge and one charge only.
Continue
*laughs* You should be a Journalist. As I said, I believe not both your counsels have been hit by snowstorms, I am not gonna argue about Osafune's situation (although he was on-line less than 12 and again 3 hours ago and the snow-storms have ceased for about three days now) as I am not aware of it, all I was doing was pointing out how dangerous your habits of crying out "The Wolf! The Wolf" are, for as I was also kept away by RL for a far shorter period some were already crying out in the torments of terror that the schedule of the trial should be respected. You have a history of inventing excuses and I for one will not overlook that. It just looks like the other day, Osafune had other areas of interest to post into. I would rather be willing to accept that the defense is not ready than hear such excuses and than also be lectured on decency and courtesy by a soon-to-be universal pariah of the international community.
On a second note, unless you have forgotten you are a defendant in this trial and asking the Prosecution to do anything or not to, is not one of your privileges, please try to remember who you are and act accordingly. As far as I see, you could make those statements yourself, since your defense team seems incapacitated to do so by the weather outside.
I would also petition the Court to ask the defendant to remove from his forum Signature the indication of his past representative function of the region, as Ambassador of Taijitu to the region Exodus, I believe he has not only been removed from that position, but I also think that it is a mockery of this region.
I ask the Justices to please ask the prosecution from making any statements that are inflammatoriy, derogatory, insulting, or flaming in nature. My defence team nor myself have made any comments of such a nature since this initial warning was put in place by Justice Allama and supported by the other two Justices, and the prosecution's refusal to act civil and show decorum in this case is a clear sign of contempt.
Furthermore, let it be shown that I am still a citizen, and as such am innocent until proven guilty. There is nothing in the law that states that I cannot continue to function as an ambassador to The Exodus. I have not been removed from this position, and to say that I can't be an ambassador is again insulting and derogatory and irrelevant to the case at hand.
I ask of you to set a clear time-table for this, five days have already been lost because, although nobody "interrupted", nothing happened.
This is merely time stalling. I ask of you to set a clear time-table for this, five days have already been lost because, although nobody "interrupted", nothing happened.
Post Scriptum: We wonder what due time is, since this trial should be over by now...I guess that depends on your interpretation of when the trial actually started. Previously it was agreed that the prosecution would present their case in three days, then the defense would get their chance to do so in three days. You asked for an extra day, and both the prosecution and defense have been granted a fourth day. By my interpretation of things, the trial began on the 12th when you present your opening statement. It is now the 18th. By the original time line we all agreed on, we still have two days including today.
they even wonder why there had been no trial until Govindia had appealed the ban (!!!).Correction: We wonder why Gov was banned a whole month after TAO came to Limitless Events to say that he had been copying info. We already know why there was no trial until Gov appealed the ban, as Ithania clearly pointed out the reason for that.
St Oz has tracked Govindia's movements in the forums (yes, that is possible) and has found him trying to access restricted areas.Perhaps you could clarify just how one would try and access a forum one cannot even see on the forum?
To the first piece of evidence: again, an odd manner of trying to ignore the proof brought before the Court - the defense brings us a statement from another region speaking about the events in TWP, which are of relevance to this case, when we have presented the statement of TAO himself.Correction: We presented a statement from a leader and citizen of TWP.
Let us move on to Ithania's testimony: (again, a player from NS England actually and not a native TWPer, makes one wonder...)What does this matter? She clearly stated that most of her activity is at TWP. Ithania is a citizen in TWP and currently holds a leadership position. Limitless Event's UN nation isn't in Taijitu, should that make his testimony doubtful?
< 13meri > Many things. He always seemed to be complaining about one thing or another going on in Taijitu.How does this relate? Several people here have complained about things going on in our very own region. This trial, separation of powers, the TRR event, the fact that Meri is the current Speaker, etc.
< 13meri > At the time that we began discussing the subject, and i believe to this day, he has refused to disclose the location or identity of his UN.If this is true, then how, may I ask, was Govindia ever granted citizenship in the first place? To be granted citizenship, one must disclose their UN nation.
Taijituan Kensatsu-Kan Taijitu's line of defense against the worst scum of the NS UniverseIsn't harassment one of the charges placed on Gov here? And yet, you have no problem committing the same crime... Double standards for the win.
guess that depends on your interpretation of when the trial actually started. Previously it was agreed that the prosecution would present their case in three days, then the defense would get their chance to do so in three days. You asked for an extra day, and both the prosecution and defense have been granted a fourth day. By my interpretation of things, the trial began on the 12th when you present your opening statement. It is now the 18th. By the original time line we all agreed on, we still have two days including today.
So please, don't accuse us of time-stalling. We haven't done anything to stall the proceeding of the trial.
Correction: We wonder why Gov was banned a whole month after TAO came to Limitless Events to say that he had been copying info. We already know why there was no trial until Gov appealed the ban, as Ithania clearly pointed out the reason for that.
Perhaps you could clarify just how one would try and access a forum one cannot even see on the forum?It is the same way that somebody can log-in using subversive methods although being banned. Forums can be broken into, and some boards can (or better to say could) be seen but not accessed without a password.
What does this matter? She clearly stated that most of her activity is at TWP. Ithania is a citizen in TWP and currently holds a leadership position. Limitless Event's UN nation isn't in Taijitu, should that make his testimony doubtful?It matters because you have tried to boost what the witness said by presenting her as something she is not. You have brought a TWPer with foreign origins and invented diverse official capacities for her *she corrected you herself, look at your own interview* in order to match a statement given by the out most TWP authority.
< 13meri > I asked him if he was working for Taijitu, he said no, he was working for another region. I told him I could not trust his motives in the region, then.
Isn't harassment one of the charges placed on Gov here? And yet, you have no problem committing the same crime... Double standards for the win.Oh, I thank his Honor TGR for clearing that up.
Is that on the irc or on the forum?
Posted on: November 14, 2007, 04:07:04 AM
On behalf of Gov, i ask that the evidence that was cited as the reason Gov was banned be made available to Gov and his defense team.
If it is in #court on esper.net then I believe it is on IRC.
Your motion will be considered.
Has it been considered yet?
We have seen everyone views on how nice/nasty Gov is but not the evidence behind it.I am sorry to have to intervene yet again. What we have seen are not views. Testimonies have been cited that clearly state that Govindia has performed illegal actions and has admitted to operating in the name of foreign interests. This is the 4th of 5th time that the defense is interpreting the evidence in a light-headed manner and frankly they should be allowed to do so only with the "views" they themselves have managed to bring before The Court.
The Prosecution does not agree that IP addresses and personal info be made available to the defense, because, considering the manner that they have chosen to conduct this trial and their expressed views on the security and well-being of the region they themselves are a part of, we have no guarantee that such sensitive information is safe and that the defendant will not have the chance to use such data in order to harass the people involved that have not agreed to be a part of this trial, precisely because of that danger.
Nothing to be sorry about, I like blunt. No, that is not what I am saying.
What I did say in my last post though, is that being as it is, I am not willing to release personal data for you or Osamafune to see, nor I am willing to release it for other eyes than the Judges and the administration *but others are not in question here, so that is why I referred only to you*.
Your association with Govindia is a supplementary element of that, but I am just being weary over administrative duties. The fact that you are desperate for such evidence and are ignoring and dismissing as not worth looking at, all statements of recognized experts, Intel officers and officials that work FOR Taijitu or have our interests at heart, and are not even bothering to read their statements or acknowledge their sayings, is something that has surprised me and as such, in my capacity as Prosecutor but also Administrator, I will proceed with caution. You will be shown as much as I can show you. Evidence concerning private data I will not share but with the Judges.
Nothing to be sorry about, I like blunt. No, that is not what I am saying.
What I did say in my last post though, is that being as it is, I am not willing to release personal data for you or Osamafune to see, nor I am willing to release it for other eyes than the Judges and the administration *but others are not in question here, so that is why I referred only to you*.
Your association with Govindia is a supplementary element of that, but I am just being weary over administrative duties. The fact that you are desperate for such evidence and are ignoring and dismissing as not worth looking at, all statements of recognized experts, Intel officers and officials that work FOR Taijitu or have our interests at heart, and are not even bothering to read their statements or acknowledge their sayings, is something that has surprised me and as such, in my capacity as Prosecutor but also Administrator, I will proceed with caution. You will be shown as much as I can show you. Evidence concerning private data I will not share but with the Judges.
In summary then, you are telling us the prosecution, because of its perceived bias and possible hatred of the defendant, is not willing to give the defendant a fair trial, which includes showing all evidence that it privately shows the court?
I'm sorry but I must wholeheartedly disagree with that line of thinking. Any and all evidence that we have brought forth has been public and not been privately presented to the court. In order for this trial to be a fair one, we must receive all the evidence that the prosecution has in this trial as well. To withhold evidence to the other side contradicts the notion of a fair trial because the defence is not being given equal access to all the evidence presented. We are a democratic region, and to claim a fair trial while not willing to give the defence full access to the evidence, just as the defence has given the prosecution full access to their evidence, is contradictory.
If the prosecution is unwilling to share such evidence with the defence team, and only with the Justices, then the defence team will have no choice but to make a motion to suppress any and all such evidence from use in this trial because we will not be able to adequately provide counsel to the defendant as the prosecution is deliberately withholding evidence to the Defence.
"To the best of my knowledge and to the extent of my experience with him (in excess of one year, now), the player I know as Romabengal has proven himself dedicated to the furtherance of Tenka Fubu Alliance development. As such, I continue regard him as a key member of our current government going forward." - Knights of Zion (KoZ)
To whom it may concern:
I, The Shadow Warrior, as the Kanrei (Prime Minister) of Feudal Japan and one of it's founding members, I wish to speak on behalf of Lord Romabengal.
In the entire time that I have interacted with Lord Romabengal within the bounds of Nation States and it's off-site fora, I have found him a respectful and dedicated player who works for his region with a determination seen in few others. I have never had cause to question his behaviour or ethics as they pertain to the game or his loyalty to which region in which he resides. He has never made uninvited advances towards me or any other female player, but rather, been the gentleman that is lacking in so many of the players of this game. A wonder that there are so few of us playing.
An questions or concerns may be TG'd, PM'd or Emailed to me.
Respectfully,
The Shadow Warrior
Ladies and Gentlemen, I take this time to write to you on behalf of my good co-worker, region-mate, and friend.
It seems that he has, again, been called into question on grounds of being a security threat. I would like to put my voice in as former Shogun of Feudal Japan that I can honestly find no better person for almost any capacity than this man. Having him serve under me was a privilege that every leader can enjoy. He does his job, and brings abouts improvements. However, the highest thing that can be said about him is his brutal honesty, and his trustworthiness. Then and now, I can give him any information in confidence that it will remain only with him. Not once have I, or my successor, found any information given him to have been mishandled. I believe that any accusations that he has jeopardized any sensitive material to be groundless and utter insanity. If this man says that he is innocent, which I am sure he has, then believe him.
He has the tendency to have an abrasive personality, especially if someone hasn't acted on something in a while, or if he feels he is being ignored. Make no mistake, this is not him being rude, or threatening, or aggressive. This is not a predecessor to him abusing trust and leaking information. This is his way of making sure that his job is done to its fullest, and that he's been given all tools, opportunities, and options possible to do his job to the best of his ability.
I hope that you will take what I've said to heart, and understand that he is a good-hearted, trustworthy, and loyal person. As an Eagle Scout, I can see that he has fine qualities in him, and that he will not let you or anyone of his friends down.
Sincerely,
Madazi
~Former Shogun of Feudal Japan
~Adviser to current Shogun
Hi,
This is acting Shogun of Feudal Japan.
Character named Romabengal asked me to write a testimony about his behavior in our region – Feudal Japan. You know him as Govindia in your region. Here at FJ he is admin, deputy of second in command and foreign minister and respectable member so far. He does act aggressively sometimes but these outbursts are not too frequent and when they happen it is relatively easy to explain him what he did wrong and that helps. So far he did not abuse his Admin powers and was a quite good Foreign Minister. He sometimes failed to negotiate peacefully with some regions but there are many other regions he was able to persuade to become our allies and while his success as FM is mixed, he achieved good results as well.
There was a wave of Catlandatopian gossip and lie that was meant to break trust to Romabengal and initially they achieved their aim (the false
accusations) but as no real proofs were provided of Romabengal’s guilt as a traitor to FJ all suspicions were dropped.
Other than some minor disagreements there and here Romabengal, known as Govindia here, is ok person in FJ. Noone’s perfect but Romabengal was able to be part of our community for a long time now and did that quite well.
Just a note – here in FJ we have no constitution as such, we have laws as such but I, acting Shogun have sole power of decisions – we are feudal dictature but most of the time I act as democratic president.
I don't have the best memory, so excuse this testimony for it's shortness. In IRC, Govindia had, overall, not been very well liked. I was largely neutral or benevolent to him, but I admit I didn't do a whole lot about the things that happened in there. When Govindia was banned, the evidence indeed was never given to me, and I'm a founder, so personally I doubt it was done in any other reason than that of he was not well liked. I asked about evidence on IRC and Taijitu, because I did consider this a travesty of justice, but eventually I got over this and just wanted the trial done so my trial with Balt could be started. I was not supplied with evidence, or even a reason, so all I could tell you is that he was banned and I have no idea why.
What I did say in my last post though, is that being as it is, I am not willing to release personal data for you or Osamafune to see, nor I am willing to release it for other eyes than the Judges and the administration *but others are not in question here, so that is why I referred only to you*.
What I did say in my last post though, is that being as it is, I am not willing to release personal data for you or Osamafune to see, nor I am willing to release it for other eyes than the Judges and the administration *but others are not in question here, so that is why I referred only to you*.
Please PM said data to the Justices so we may deliberate on its sensitive nature (and, you know, see the evidence).
*smiles* What the defense fails to mention is that the NS region of Feudal Japan is divided between one half that believes Govindia has conspired to the recent invasion of the region and its submission by foreign forces and the other half that is not sure if that is the case. Oh, pardon me, the current dictator of the region does mention it, not surprisingly in a favorable manner, since the rumors have practically stated that Govindia himself has conspired in his favor.
I would be interested to hear what the defense has to say about Senator's Meridianland statement, which clearly tells us that the defendant himself has admitted to working for foreign interests through his presence in our region.There were so many problems with Meri's testimony that we're not done formulating a rebuttal yet, because every time we turn around, there's another.
< 13meri > Many things. He always seemed to be complaining about one thing or another going on in Taijitu. One topic that emerged that pertains to this trial is the subject of his UN nation.
< 13meri > At the time that we began discussing the subject, and i believe to this day, he has refused to disclose the location or identity of his UN. Since in this game, each player is allowed to have only one UN, and UNs can in many instances, particularly in military and intelligence contexts represent power, the dedication of one's UN is usually an indication of a player's loyalty.
After Govindia sending me a link to his UN nation over IM, his request to become a citizen is approved. Welcome!
I suggest that the defense hurry though, because given that the official religions in Japan are Buddhism and Shinto, Christmas is a more commercial event than anywhere else and the esteemed Japanese players might be wandering the shops for new katanas to put under the bonsai-tree.
I would also respectfully request the Court to please look upon all statements that have been presented in this thread, as most of them do speak about relevant circumstances and refer directly to Govindia's actions, and as direct testimonials are clear and solid evidence to this trial, no matter what the defense might say about the lack of evidence. The Prosecution does defend the interest of the region of Taijitu and for the Court to ignore the meaning of such statements would be, as far as our power of insight can reach, a great danger to our region.
I want to signal the Court that if the way the counsel Osamafune is understanding to address me, I will have to ask for him to be banned from this Court. I have not insulted the defense team but referred to their statements. Osamafune has chosen to insult me more than one time, and frankly I do not know if I should allow this to go on. I will not be the one to allow this trial to divide the region of Taijitu. But I am not willing to sit and allow such behavior to go on. I can bring testimonies who will state what the suspicions on Govindia's role in Feudal Japan are, and I am aware of the fact that official charges were dropped. I never stated anything else. But for the defense counsel to cry out and call me a liar, that is too much.
I will either have him take that statement back and apologize in this thread or my part in this trial is done with. I am representing the Government of Taijitu is this trial, and not a two-faced cheating player. I am awaiting your decision.
Thank You.
Perhaps a statement from Feudal Japan could clear up that matter? I suggest that the defense hurry though, because given that the official religions in Japan are Buddhism and Shinto, Christmas is a more commercial event than anywhere else and the esteemed Japanese players might be wandering the shops for new katanas to put under the bonsai-tree.
Additionally, Govindia - you need not petition upwards of 3 times for the same thing. We read it the first time and will make our decision whether to consider evidence of a sensitive nature once we have seen it.What, may I ask, will happen to the evidence if it is considered to be of a sensitive nature?
QuoteAdditionally, Govindia - you need not petition upwards of 3 times for the same thing. We read it the first time and will make our decision whether to consider evidence of a sensitive nature once we have seen it.What, may I ask, will happen to the evidence if it is considered to be of a sensitive nature?
*Disclaimer*
In my above post, I did not intend to offend or upset anyone. If you were so, I deeply apologies.
Also, besides the rest of the evidence which will reach only Your Honors via PM, also because, doing otherwise would allow the defendant access to sensitive Intel gathering procedure,
Now are we able to move on with the business in hand?Please do not make this any worse than it already is.
I have not been called a liar in my entire NS career, only to have a defense counsel who also happens to be a Senator of my home region call me one. I am afraid I must maintain my previous position and demand a public apology before I respond to any other interpolations from the defense.You either manipulated a previous testimony to say what you wanted it to say, or you simply misread the post because what you said was completely and utterly false. If it was the latter, that you only misread the post which everybody has done at one point or another, then an apology would be in order. Now if what you said was indeed true, and that you neither manipulated or misread the testimonies, we expect evidence to support the claim since you have given none and everything else we presented proves otherwise.
The evidence will be presented to the justices. If we decide that it is necessary for the defense to see, it is our choice. And please, would people refrain from telling the court what "must" happen. It is the decision of the justices, as always what evidence is valid and what is not.Your honor, the defense apologizes for telling the court what it must do. However, we do stand by our position that for this to be a fair trial, that the evidence must be presented. That's not to say the court has to present it, but if the prosecution and court can see evidence that the defense cannot, it is impossible for this to be a fair trial. It goes back to what I have said before the trial started, and before Flemingovia gave a real reason for Govindia being restricted: If the defense does not know what we are being charged with, how are we supposed to put up a defense? Likewise, if we do not know what evidence is being presented against us, how are we supposed to put up a defense?
On behalf of Govindia, I am writing to facilitate the proceedings in Taijitu. It is unusual for me to interfere in the politics of another region but I do this upon request.
Govindia is the victim of his own reputation, which — I truly believe — he hopes to ameliorate. Two significant factors stand in the way of his turning over a new leaf. The first is, of course, that same reputation. On that matter, there can be no dispute that it was earned by behavior and — perhaps — some degree of misunderstanding.
In my view, the second factor is a certain lack of forgiveness for and trust in Govindia that he does wish to make amends and begin a new era in the region(s) that have rejected him. As an outsider, I've a certain amount of luxury to make the claim that I believe him — but there it is.
I do not suggest that someone or group of persons have the role of "social guide" imposed upon them. Such an occupation can only be assumed and not imposed. Govindia will be, in fact, the chief of any such guide. The community's responsibility is to point out when he's "adding fuel to an existing fire" and ask him to stop. In addition, the community has every right to remind him (and other participants) when civility and mores are being abused. In essence, this is the part of the foundation of any social contract.
My player that made the request that I write this message is suffering a certain level of angst on this matter that's spawned by his confusion. If the Taijitu people do decide against him, please — at least — offer a full explanation.
Yours sincerely,
Thel D'Ran of Lemuria
(2007-12-19 05:20:41) Osafune: So to start things off, please state your forum name and UN nation.
(2007-12-19 05:22:43) Delfos: My forum name is Delfos, my UN nation is New Delfos. I am a member of both Taijitu region, the forum.Taijitu.org, and I'm myself a qualified Citizen of Taijitu.
(2007-12-19 05:23:19) Govindia: Have you held any other positions in Taijitu?
(2007-12-19 05:23:37) Delfos: never
(2007-12-19 05:26:07) Osafune: Sorry about the pause. As I said, I'm currently at work.
(2007-12-19 05:26:37) Delfos: sure, no problem
(2007-12-19 05:27:05) Osafune: Delfos, can you please give a description of Govindia's character?
(2007-12-19 05:30:40) Delfos: Govinda as I know, I have never witnessed any offense or unusual behavior, Govinda is certainly qualified for Citizen and I've never seen any problem with his character that would provoke discrimination or even a trial.
(2007-12-19 05:31:17) Govindia: could you elaborate please?
(2007-12-19 05:33:46) Delfos: I have never wtinessed any offensive or unusual behavior, or any problem with Govindia's character that would provoke judgment against his membership, citizenship or his right to access the Role Play section.
(2007-12-19 05:35:14) Delfos: Govindia is a random person, and he's exactly as any other member of Taijitu
(2007-12-19 05:38:46) Osafune: "Discrimination"? Perhaps you could elaborate more on that as well.
(2007-12-19 05:40:18) Delfos: Well, I recall he was banned from Role Play section and from the forums without plausible justification or notice, among other discriminations like denying his right to post.
(2007-12-19 05:40:56) Osafune: This was before the trial, correct?
(2007-12-19 05:42:10) Delfos: That is correct, and even after the trial started I witnessed flaming and accusations outside the Court's topic about Govindia's trial.
(2007-12-19 05:44:00) Osafune: So how would you summarize everything so far? Gov's banning/restriction, the trial, etc...
(2007-12-19 05:47:37) Delfos: Well, my concern is that if they can do all this to Govindia without any justification or notice, they can do it to anybody, and I've witnessed other kinds of discrimination similar to what happened to Govindia and people getting banned or forced to leave Taijitu without any good justification, and without informing the Taijitu Community about the reason of such actions.
(2007-12-19 05:48:14) Govindia: Could you elaborate on this, and if possible, provide examples?
(2007-12-19 05:48:55) Delfos: I don't think I need to present examples, but names, let me recall them...the first that comes in mind beyond Govinda is Geradin
(2007-12-19 05:49:01) Delfos: *Govindia
(2007-12-19 05:56:51) Delfos: Well there is a name I cannot remember, that some members started to bully and forced him to leave. I want to present a recent case against Barakarin, trying to prevent the abuse, although messing with his account and achievements, such as post count, and also preventing him to defend himself and have his word by locking topics and the sort.
(2007-12-19 05:57:41) Delfos: This as being the worse cases, I could exhaustivly list several other cases, even involving myself
(2007-12-19 05:58:08) Govindia: Could you explain the case with yourself, and with Geradin, for the purposes of this testimony if we may ask?
(2007-12-19 06:02:39) Delfos: Well the purpose is to make sure the image of the forum administration and other administrative entities are seen. They ignore the rights of members, they do not defend their citizenship rights, and they also get involved in discrimination and the abuse of rights. I'm flamed allot or accused, well not so often latly, but the administration did nothing to prevent it from happening,
(2007-12-19 06:03:21) Delfos: also supported those involved in flaming accusations instead of defend each other's right or stopping the abuse of rights
(2007-12-19 06:04:40) Govindia: Why do you think they do that? Is Taijitu not supposed to be a friendly and respectful community to everyone who arrives?
(2007-12-19 06:08:50) Delfos: I think they established a solid hierarchy and favor some members over others, new members are welcome but whatever they defend is flamed, if their view of the world isn't the same as this group. I already confronted one of the Mafial-style lord about his power, he said he didn't know he had such power. They exerce their functions without knowing their duties or limits, without respt...
(2007-12-19 06:11:18) Delfos: without respecting membership/citizenship rights, and the other administrative entities normally do not do anything to stop or reserve any abuse.
I have the information that Myroria removed the ban on Gonvindia because it was inconstitutional, I must say that was quite rare interveinance of one administrator, which I must highlight positivly.
(2007-12-19 06:12:07) Govindia: Do you have any thoughts on the claims made by Prosecutor GMT that I am a security threat to Taijitu?
(2007-12-19 06:16:28) Delfos: I do, I don't see any threat to the security of Taijitu, as stated above, I see Govindia as a rightful member of the Taijitu community and no action from him suggests any breach of security of Taijitu. And I believe Govindia haven't committed anything against Taijitu, there should be no punishment.
(2007-12-19 06:18:23) Govindia: Do you have any thoughts on the character witness testimony that has been provided so far for this trial?
(2007-12-19 06:23:54) Delfos: I think some are misplaced and can't be judged without context, I also think some of the testimonies that didn't happened in the forum are doubtful or forged, but that's not for me to judge, and other from those, I can't formulate any thought on the content of such testimonies, I respect them as opinions, as most of them are, and not as conclusive evidence.
(2007-12-19 06:25:40) Govindia: You are planning to write a deposition still, yes?
(2007-12-19 06:27:32) Delfos: Yes, I've already wrote a deposition, basically saying everything I've said here.
(2007-12-19 06:27:51) Govindia: Would you still like to submit it ?
(2007-12-19 06:28:16) Delfos: Yes, where should I submit it?
(2007-12-19 06:28:54) Govindia: PM it to Osafune on the forum, and please e-mail me at gramabadran@gmail.com, as I cannot view PMs through the forum, nor send any.
(2007-12-19 06:32:22) Delfos: Are we done here?
(2007-12-19 06:33:20) Govindia: I have no further questions. Osafune may, I do not know. If you need to be elsewhere, I thank you for your time. If Osafune needs to ask you further questions, will you be willing to answer outside of this chat?
(2007-12-19 06:33:40) Delfos: Sure
(2007-12-19 06:34:14) Govindia: ok
(2007-12-19 06:34:35) Govindia: Thank you Delfos, for your time.
(2007-12-19 06:35:52) Delfos: No problem
we believe that putting random statements of random players or regions in this equation are merely a waste of timeThere was nothing "random" about any of the statements and testimonies we have presented so far. They are from delegates, leaders, and intelligence officers of regions that have experience with Govindia and know of his actions from TWP. We do not see how Ithania's testimony can possibly be considered "random" when she is a leader and citizen of one of the feeders you brought a testimony from, nor can the testimony of New Drakensburg Range, a long time NSer from England and very skilled at intelligence himself. Additionally, the members of Feudal Japan (now Tokugawa Japan) have also witnessed much of the treatment given to Govindia, and have seen how he acts in their region. Catlandatopia tried to discredit my client during the invasion, and failed. .
statements of famous Taijituans such as Korinn, Flemingovia or Meridianland or of our own root administration represent nothing in this caseAs we pointed out, Meridianland's statement is biased. As things stand at the moment, we intend to focus on Korinn's and Flemingovia's testimony in our next statement.
"I think that Gov is like any other person in Taijitu looking for a nice environment in which to RP, meet new people and basically just have fun. He rubs many people the wrong way, though, due to his under-developed social skills and those who lack patience with rare flaws they might not have seen before easily get frustrated with his clumsy way of presenting himself and his viewpoints. However, from what I've gathered about his person, he understands this issue in himself and tries to fix it, but as people are often stuck with first impressions, this improvement goes unnoticed to most as people don't want to believe in it.
"As for his threat level toward the 'security of Taijitu,' I take it that that refers to the NS interregional politics part of the forum which frankly just brings more intrigue to the game. Of course, in that regard it would have been and would be more fair to simply restrict his access to those parts of the forum he might 'spy' upon if that indeed is a genuine worry to anyone and not merely an excuse to follow the example of other regions in banning him.
"Alternatively, if the 'security' of the Taijituan community is in question, the whole process the Court is undergoing is complete and utter BS as
"1) the community becomes only stronger and more interesting to participate in when special people like Gov (pun not intended) are present.
"2) As it has been earlier determined the forum consists of three parts: NS, general areas and RP. To postulate that someone might pose a threat to all three and/or the forum structure itself requires proof and the fact that none have been spread publicly and that there is in fact a Court proceeding imply that no such threat exists to the forum and community in and of themselves.
"Ergo, it can be deduced that the whole proceeding is either an NS stunt for some purpose or just spitefulness under the guise of 'regional security.' Either way, the threat remains very small in any practical sense, thanks to the relatively active presence of admins. In conclusion and in my opinion, Gov does not present any risk to anything that would or could justify the bullying occuring right now, here."
As TAO, I have been contacted by several female players (members of TWP and players outside of TWP who have heard of these proceedings) describing how they felt they were being “stalked by Ramaba” because of his constant requests for personal information, his repeated harassment through multiple cyber media, and his not-so-veiled sexual innuendos. These ladies had no reason to lie. Most now block Ramaba from their IM and email. One young lady said she had to block his phone.
Regarding IC matters, as TAO I find that Govindia has no honor. When he was denied membership into the Order of Gryphons under his own name in TWP, he applied under a different name and from a different region. He is now an applicant-non-gratis in the Order.
When the trial of Ramaba was happening in TWP, Ramaba (Govindia) harassed forum members via PM to support and defend him. Many of those who had previously supported him found this harassment to be “over the top” and they chose to support the case against him instead.
Govindia is a loose cannon who presumes he is owed position and power but he doesn’t really do anything to earn it … or the TRUST that such position involves.
Govindia exhibits NO restraint in sharing PMs with a third party and without permission of the other player. He uses such privileged information as he would a trading card to secure personal prestige. In most governments, we call that treason.
IC and OOC he is a detestable player and TWP suffers with him in our midst.
Bottom line: he was removed from TWP and the region is a much better place because of it. But TWP is preparing to take further action against Govindia because of his sneaking into our forum under a different name and using a proxy even though he is banned. So it would seem that Govindia is not only a problematic player, he is a stupid [less diligent] one.
Govindia was first banned from the forum for constant and consistent disobedience of forum administration, and for violating forum policy, rules and regulations. He was then banned a second time for not only repeat offenses, but also for circumventing the ban already in effect, in a deceptive, fraudulent manner.
The biggest problem was in his personal dealings with others. We learned very quickly that he was stalking one of the members of the region. We investigated the situation and suspended him for a month. On his return, he was to have no further contact with this member whatsoever. He never, in all our investigations of this first incident, admitted to stalking her, or that his attentions weren’t wanted. Instead, like an abuser, he put the blame on that member. She began participating less and less in our forums, btw.
He returned and appeared to be towing the straight and narrow. However, that was a sham. He returned to stalking the member and fell in with a group of dissidents in the region in December 2005/January 2006. After we learned of his renewed stalking, Fudgie and I had numerous conversations with him. Fudgie was extremely pissed at the man and I learned, from conversations with him, that he was stalking women rt, and, again, never saw that his attentions weren’t wanted. In the end, we had to ban him; he claimed, of course, that it was part of being a member of the opposition, but it was nothing of the sort.
[13:39] <Limi> On October 5th, 2007 I received information from TAO showing actions that Ramaba had been copying classified threads from TWP and handing them out to other regions.As a reminder, Govindia (aka Ramaba) was banned over a month after this has happened. The prosecution has yet to clarify this, it can only be assumed that it never happened. We already know that there were other charges placed upon Govindia that led to his banning in TWP.
[13:39] <GMT> *notes that TAO is the delegate of NS The West Pacific
[14:05] <Limi> no it has not. I saw him only as a threat to regional security when banning him based upon the information I received from TAO
[14:24] <Limi> there is no direct evidence of him committing the action as there is no way to log if a topic is downloadedSo there is no evidence that he has been copying information and passing it out to other regions. That would mean he is not a security threat as he doesn’t have any special access to copy threads from in the first place.
[14:24] <GMT> Is there evidence of threads or info copied from Taijitu and posted in another region?
[14:26] <Limi> there is no evidence that he copied threads from Taijitu and gave it to another region because information like that would be kept as secret as possible in the region he gave it to
[14:21] <Limi> but had also expressed interest in joining the army and becoming a deputy minister in addition to applying to be a Senator and becoming a recruiterHe never did join the Army, he withdrew his senator application, and he did not "express interest in becoming a deputy minister."
[16:42] <Limi> I would say it is very reasonable because I also passed the information to flemingovia and stated the actions would be undone if he asked. Upon coming on he publicly stated his approval of this action based upon the information that was receivedFlemingovia's testimony contradicts this.
Limi did not give specific details, but said that he was acting on intel information he had received.So according to Flemingovia, Limi did not pass any information to him about what Govindia had done. Both statements contradict each other.
[16:46] <GMT> I was asking if you feel that a preemptive action was necessary and if you stand by your decision, although no direct evidence of Govindia's malicious intentions is at hand.Please note that nowhere is there a law that allows for the banning of a citizen as a preemptive measure.
Limi did not give specific details, but said that he was acting on intel information he had received.Now let us look at this quote from Flemingovia, which I personally think is very strange that a person has been banned here by the root admin yet he does not give specific details? Is this seriously happening, that an admin can say he has banned someone from the forum because on intel information which he does not give specifics on? “Oh, I banned him but can tell you why.” Lets put it in a real life situation here, imagine your mother is arrested suddenly one day and you ask the natural question: why? The answer: she is dangerous but can't give you the specifics. Oh, that makes it all fine then, I suppose.
< 12flemingovia > And it is suggested in some quarters that I am head of Intel for that same feeder.So, here we have our citizen whos greatest position of power is an ambassador so hardly privy to sensitive information yet accused of being a spy…
< 12flemingovia > the North Pacific Intel Agency
< 12flemingovia > I have been involved in espionage many times in NS.
< 12flemingovia > Both in terms of managing agents and acting as a sleeper myself.
< 12flemingovia > I would also need to say that Intel is a shadowy world - it often depends on judgment calls based on instinct as much as proof. And as delegate I chose to trust the judgment of Limi whose access and involvement in this matter was far greater than mine.Please tell me you did not ban my client because of instinct when before you have said you do not like him (in as many words) and you are not surprised at all by this whole incident? Would that cloud your instinct and judgement? Would mine, but maybe I am less of a person in these areas than you…
< 07GMT > Based on what you were shown in terms of "proof" by the Root Limitless Events, how did you evaluate the threat posed by Govindia?Even the prosecution here had to put proof in inverted commas… Enough said really!
< 12flemingovia > One last thing: No doubt there are those who will look at the above and say that those in authority in Taijitu acted in a draconian manner, and poor Govindia has been badly, even illegally, treated.It has already been proved that Govindia has been treated illegally to an extent (constant harassment and the fact that he was banned without a public statement given).
< 06Korinn >He begged for days about it and when I gave him the positionWhen reading the application topic, it shows Korinn accepting his application the day it was made.
< 06Korinn > I see that as being a two part thing. On one side, he is a possible in-game threat. He could pass information to other regions if allowed access.Anybody can pass along information to other regions if given access. However, Govindia was NOT given access. The two most important areas of the forum are the Senate and Ministry of Defense private forums. Govindia never applied for the Army and withdrew his application for the Senate.
< 06Korinn > There have been rumors, and they might just be that, but rumors that he has already spied on anther region once before.Flemingovia has just admitted to being the head of intelligence for a feeder. Spying... in one way or another, that's a job for intelligence, correct? Since Flemingovia has been involved in espionage for another region other than Taijitu, wouldn't that discredit him as well?
*sigh*QuoteCorrection: We wonder why Gov was banned a whole month after TAO came to Limitless Events to say that he had been copying info. We already know why there was no trial until Gov appealed the ban, as Ithania clearly pointed out the reason for that.
I would ask the defense-team to please re-check their calendar and the actual flow of events. We kindly inform the defense team that THERE CAN BE NO TRIAL until the one in case appeals the ban (I do believe you insisted we call it a "forum restriction" but we will try to be flexible).
That strikes me as... odd... So the charge placed on Govindia, that he has been copying and dispersing Taijituan information, occured after he was banned? I didn't even know we had password protected forums, so that's a new one on me.QuotePerhaps you could clarify just how one would try and access a forum one cannot even see on the forum?It is the same way that somebody can log-in using subversive methods although being banned. Forums can be broken into, and some boards can (or better to say could) be seen but not accessed without a password.
Another lie. It was a simple mistake, Govindia was under the impression that she was still a deputy because she was still carrying out duties associated with the foreign affairs ministry. As she says, she "helps out when asked." Govindia, who is banned and thus does not have access to their forum, would not have necessarily known she was not the deputy foreign minister.QuoteWhat does this matter? She clearly stated that most of her activity is at TWP. Ithania is a citizen in TWP and currently holds a leadership position. Limitless Event's UN nation isn't in Taijitu, should that make his testimony doubtful?
It matters because you have tried to boost what the witness said by presenting her as something she is not. You have brought a TWPer with foreign origins and invented diverse official capacities for her *she corrected you herself, look at your own interview* in order to match a statement given by the out most TWP authority.
Now, let us look at Myroria's statement:You have no proof that this had any affect on his testimony. If it did, then it could have clearly affected Oz's, disposition towards Govindia, as he was the one to have made the biggest fuss about it. However, I do doubt that.
Myroria is mirroring his own personal problems with the fact that once order was restored to the IRC channel of Taijitu he himself was not named a Chanel Operator and had to wait for the order to be re-established to get his Ops back.
(Govindia being one of the mayhem-factors)I don't recall that. I DO recall St. Oz going berserk, however. Personally, I did not see Govindia as a mayhem-factor. It was Oz's going berserk that sparked everything.
What the forum evidence is concerned, again Myroria must not be shown any of it based on his quality as a founder.Who can be any more trusted than a founder; someone who has been around since the birth of the region and has shown a great deal of loyalty to it?
This is again, for all to see, the classic Govindia if I may call it so, namely he has always been trying to refuse the established decision factors and circumvent them by going to other players, and pressuring them into speaking in his behalf. Any of you who has come in contact with the defendant will know what I am talking about.I don't.
I am Govindia. My Taijituan nation is Arvengovi.
I have a UN nation, but it is with an active defender force outside this region. It has never been used in any operation against Taijitu in any way, shape, or form.
I have disclosed my UN status to Gnoled Ttam when he was at the time, Minister of Internal Affairs at the time. I do not know if he still is in that position, but I was trusted enough to be granted citizenship.
I refused to disclose my UN nation to Meridianland because of her known links to DEN. She is a member of DEN, a raider region. If I were to disclose my UN nation to her, how can I trust her that she won’t feed the information to DEN, who could use it for intel for any future operations?
I came here because I was told that this region was active in terms of RPing. So I spoke with Talmann and Gallipoli-China for a bit about the RP policies, and after hearing their thoughts on some of the RP stuff, I needed to step away for a bit and re-plan my nation to fit the RP policies of Taijitu. This was around May, and I went on a hiatus for a bit, as I was nearing the end of Spring Quarter at uni. and needed to finish my schoolwork so I could graduate on time, and start the formal process for my job offer that I got with the company that I work for in CA.
Things started to ease up a bit in summer, and I returned. Once again, to RP. I went through the citizenship process above and got citizenship. After being on the IRC channel for quite some time and being on the forum, I really liked this region. For once, I was in a region that I thought was friendly to everyone, regardless of where they came from.
When I applied for a map spot on the Taijituan map, as I wanted to RP, was where my troubles started. At first, St. Oz refused to grant me access to the map, as he was also Minister of Regional Security at the time, with Meri as his Deputy. He repeatedly, in a harsh and insulting manner, refused to put me on the map until I disclosed my UN nation to him. Now, everyone knew at the time I was a member of The West Pacific, and TWP’s military, a defender force. It was obvious to put two and two together enough without forcing me to disclose my UN nation. However, in a fit of rage, St. Oz banned me from the channel that night, three times, as well as from the forum three times. He eventually was forced to lift both bans as his actions were regarded as out of line and unconstitutional, and I believe he eventually lost op powers on the IRC channel.
One thing that’s been focused on has been my behaviour towards other people, that I stalk women, and that I am a national security threat. I have never stalked anyone in my entire life, and I don’t intend to do so. I have been falsely accused of stalking in real life and was proven wrong, but because of the political correctness of the university’s kangaroo court of a “Student Conduct” court system (a system that takes hearsay into account and doesn’t allow character witnesses), any male that is accused of something by a female gets punished no matter if the female is wrong or not. It was declared that the stalking claim was exaggerated and false, but I still was forced to go on probation for a year, and attend a healthy relationship class by the Women’s Centre at my uni. Why? To make the female accuser happy even though her claim was grossly exaggerated.
I’ll admit, I have social flaws. More pronounced than others. Some of my symptoms can mirror that of people who have Aspberger’s Syndrome or are autistic, but I am not either of them. It was already diagnosed that I do not have any mental condition or disorder, nor do I need to be on any medication for such things. All my life I was an academic bookworm so I did not really concentrate much on socialising with others. My parents were wanting me to get the best grades possible and focus on that only so I can be successful in business. With the business leadership training I had, I was successful in the companies that I worked for. I was social in such workplace environments and the teams I worked in got along well with me and valued my skills and contributions. At a place like my uni, it was different. Almost like a foreign country. I didn’t know how to socialise with people, and people thought me as awkward. I had received social councelling, and made great progress, but I had to struggle after a year’s worth of councelling to pick it up again, as all my initial progress got shot to hell in 2004. Mum died in a catastrophic fashion, for which the details I am not legally allowed to publicly tell anyone due to an agreement I signed with the hospital’s lawyers. Suffice to say in the aftermath, my family turned their grief on me and blamed me for Mum’s suffering (even though other circumstances showed she had already suffered by the time I got there), and my closest friends betrayed and abandoned me. Feeling distraught and depressed as I felt with little support from anyone, I made my second near-attempt at suicide.
Since then I had rebounded from that and improved with my social councelling and had more supportive friends. The psychologist who diagnosed me earlier as having no mental condition or disorder has stated that I have had great difficulties in learning how to adapt socially, and that I have made progress since I first started councelling, but because of how late I started, the flaws are still deep that they are going to take a long time, and those with real patience and understanding will only understand this to a certain extent. I have made mistakes before in my attempts to learn how to be social yes, but as I am trying to improve, but I’ve noticed that as I tried to change and show change, people here continue to have prejudiced attitudes towards me that I am a harmful person, and I can’t do anything with such prejudiced attitudes not allowing me to show I am a decent friend if one actually opens their mind up and tries to get to know me better.
In some respects, some people here have shown such willingness and have considered me their friends. Soly and Thel for instance, continue to talk to me and enjoy talking with me about various things. Are they aware of stuff that has happened to me in the past? Yes they are, but they know I’m trying to work on my flaws, and are doing their best to assist me with this.
As I said before I came here to RP initially, not to be discriminated against. I then decided I wanted to contribute to this region and help out where it was needed. Even though I was in the process of getting my security clearance for my job and moving to a new state 3,000 miles across the country, I wanted to still try and help out. I applied to be an ambassador and I got the job. I withdrew my application from the Senate as I was focusing on relocation to the new state and didn’t have time for it. I applied to be a recruiter and was denied, for a reason in which I still have not been given an honest answer for. I felt I was discriminated in this regard because I was the only citizen who I saw was denied a recruitment job and not given an honest answer, while others either were accepted, or got a reasonable answer why they were denied, such as they weren’t in the region long enough. I cannot understand how recruiting is a security risk as it only involves sending TGs to the feeders asking them to come to our region, only through an automated system rather than manually TGing each new nation to come to us.
The discrimination continued. For 5-6 more weeks, St. Oz continually refused to deny me a plot to the map on Taijitu so I can RP. I was frustrated, and some others were frustrated as well that I could not RP because I was not given a map spot, which I felt I needed for accurate and proper RP, especially for any RP war I would be doing with any other nation. I fulfilled all the other criteria that was needed to get on the map, and when I publicly posted asking about this, St. Oz deleted my posts each time I asked. I asked him over IRC, and he stated he won’t add people he doesn’t like, and he wanted me to initially bribe him with 25 percent of my tai, which was not much considering I haven’t posted a lot on the forum. He then said I was feeder scum, and that he didn’t like me and that he won’t add me on the map. He continued to delete my posts in the map thread when I asked him about it. Frustrated that my voice was not being heard on the forum, I took it to the channel and asked him to add me to the map, given the plot I had requested. To me, it should not take more than a week to add someone to the map, especially if someone like me wants to RP and has met the map application criteria. Oz at that point then gave me a plot, but labelled my nation as a “Bitch Republic”, an obvious flame. I then asked him to cut it out and add my nation back with the proper name and he refused. Limi shortly thereafter banned me from the channel saying I can’t discuss forum business or government business on the channel. Last I checked, people talk about forum matters from the channel all the time, be it the government threads or otherwise, and no one has been banned for it. Shortly thereafter, i was informed of the “forum restriction.”
Since then, which was October, no evidence has been presented to me to show I am a public security threat. It has been speculated that I am a stalker, a security threat, and a horrible person. If I was a security threat, I would not have gotten my security clearance for my job. The investigators looked through every aspect of my past and questioned whom they needed to, and they know about my past social history. They know that I have made progress and that I love my country, and that is why they gave me that clearance.
I am not a security threat to this region. The only “private” access I have ever gotten was to the Ministry of External Affairs as an Ambassador, and even there nothing is sensitive enough that people don’t already know about – like the updates and where each person is an ambassador, and essentially a lounge for us. That’s it. I never had any intention to join the Taijituan Army, I was only curious about what exactly it does, since each region’s army is different. I had no access to any other area. Each of the regions I have been in know that I am not a threat. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be in those regions.
As Thel and others have stated, I am not a bad person. A misunderstood one, as Thel told me once, that people do not understand about. To quote Batman Begins, “people fear what they don’t understand.” I’ve noticed that people who are not well understood are viewed as suspicious, and those who are not really social are considered to be awkward and creepy. This is not me experiencing the treatment alone. I have seen poor Barakarin mistreated poorly even though he doesn’t understand a few things, and others. I was under the impression that this region is friendly to anyone who comes here, regardless if they are from feeders or not. Being socially awkward, and not a social extrovert, does not mean one is a security threat to this region. I find it very hypocritical how in some cases people are allowed to slander and defame others, yet are not punished. I find it hypocritical how someone like Meri is allowed to troll the forum and IRC, insulting people and be obnoxious to anyone she thinks has a bias towards defenders, and how at one point she accused me of being a fraudulent Hindu for not remembering one of the holidays. Yet I have to be punished for being socially awkward, while trying to fit in. Very few people have given me a reasonable chance to show I am a friendly person who has much to contribute to this region in terms of RP and otherwise, but it seems the reputation of being one of the most friendliest regions in NS is hampered by allowing outside prejudices of people to cloud judgment instead of keeping an open mind.
Please tell me you did not ban my client because of instinct when before you have said you do not like him (in as many words) and you are not surprised at all by this whole incident? Would that cloud your instinct and judgement? Would mine, but maybe I am less of a person in these areas than you…
Please tell me you did not ban my client....
this was a question we were asking the court, not you,
The only people allowed to post in the trial thread are the Justices, Prosecution and Defense. Anyone else posting will be considered a deliberate attempt to derail the trial. Any issues can be delivered to the Justices via a PM.
If my defence team wanted to ask you, we would have asked you directly and addressed you as such.
2. The dissemination of private materials of any Citizen of Taijitu as defined in Section 3 of this article shall be forbidden, excepting where authorized by that Citizen or Citizens, or by a warrant of the Supreme Court of Taijitu issued on probable cause.and
6. The harassment of any person shall be forbidden.we find the defendant GUILTY.
4. Excessive and unnecessary posting with the intent to disrupt or provoke shall be forbidden.and
7. The dissemination of classified materials vital to the security of the region shall be forbidden, and the Executive Government of Taijitu shall be given the authority to declare materials classified on a reasoned basis.we find the defendant NOT GUILTY.
The defense requests some clarification on the reasonings behind the verdicts and sentences given. For example, we have no idea how the court came to the conclusion that the defendant is guilty of "The dissemination of private materials of any Citizen of Taijitu as defined in Section 3 of this article shall be forbidden, excepting where authorized by that Citizen or Citizens, or by a warrant of the Supreme Court of Taijitu issued on probable cause" and "The harassment of any person shall be forbidden." To the best of our recollection, the prosecution did not provide evidence towards such claims, nor presented any specific occasions when it happened. We are not trying to alter the verdicts or the sentence and accept the outcome the court has already presented to us, but we would still like to request clarification.The opinion of the Court, which was unanimous, will be released at the same time as other confidential documents, excepting those which contain personally sensitive information (IP addresses and suchlike). In the case of the latter, a summary of the evidence will be provided, or a version which removes the confidential information. The release of Court documents is required by law; don't worry, you'll see them.
We would also like to request some clarification on the sentencing. Previously, G-C mentioned that it was undecided on whether or not Govindia was still a citizen. This, of course, was well before the verdict. Also, the prosecution was steadfast on asserting that Govindia's citizenship had been revoked, all the while calling our client such vile names as a troll, a traitor, and a virus, and making racist remarks against Japanese people. Depending upon what the court has decided upon this, then the defendant has already had his citizenship revoked for four months. In a sense, he has already served his sentence.By law, a non-citizen does not have to be brought before the Court. Since Govindia was a citizen at the time of his restriction, he retained his citizenship up until the issuance of this verdict. Depriving Govindia of his citizenship prior to verdict by the Court would have been in violation of both the Constitution and of Court practice. Thus we can safely say that Govindia was a citizen throughout the Court process.
Will Govindia then be serving an additional three months with his citizenship revoked? Does this mean he is no longer an Ambassador (he is still listed as the ambassador to The Exodus)?Yes and yes.
Also, it appears that Govindia will still have forum access. If so, why not grant him IRC access? What is so different about the two that requires him to be banned from one, but not the other?The Court deliberately did not grant a hard and fast sentence relating to IRC because the Justices that ruled in this case thought that the Court's power over the IRC channel was limited.
In regards to Govindia's forum access, it is not a right bestowed upon citizens. There are numerous active members on our forum who do not have citizenship, but still have full forum access (ie. Loyan). Anybody who registers on our forum can see nearly all of it. Since citizenship is not a requirement for forum access, and the court only ruled that his citizenship be revoked, not his forum access, the defense would like to make one last request: Please ensure that Govindia's forum access is restored as soon as possible.Yes, this is true; Govindia should be given a normal member mask.
But wait! Some of the IRC logs have "vanished," as Limi admitted to. For all I know, it may not even be there. Again, if I presented evidence for that, you would probably have me sued.Never said any IRC logs have vanished, that is very hard to accomplish since every single person who logs the convo needs to lose it. I have however stated there are gaps in the admin log where posts are deleted but no record of the deletion exists. I found the solution to this is that it only logs when an admin or mod deletes something and not a normal user.
Also, some of us have noticed posts going missing in the rp forum. Any evidence of that would be in the admin logs, which I wouldn't have access to (and if I did and presented the evidence, again, you would probably have me sued).same reason as above
Also, if he was using a proxy to get around the restriction, why aren't we seeing him using them to get around the ban? What is even the point of banning him then? If Limi is above the law, and "cares" for Taijitu, why didn't he ban him for the ToS violation before now? There's no way this can be motivated politically or in some other manner.The reason you aren't seeing him getting around the ban is because I have banned the entire range associated with the proxy. The reason I have not banned him before this beccause of the ToS violation is due to his trial. If I banned him then you would be yelling and screaming that I'm trying to circumvent justice by denying him the right to a trial.
The thing with the IRC logs makes sense, but the thing with the missing forum posts doesn't seeing as one of my own topics had vanished.QuoteBut wait! Some of the IRC logs have "vanished," as Limi admitted to. For all I know, it may not even be there. Again, if I presented evidence for that, you would probably have me sued.Never said any IRC logs have vanished, that is very hard to accomplish since every single person who logs the convo needs to lose it. I have however stated there are gaps in the admin log where posts are deleted but no record of the deletion exists. I found the solution to this is that it only logs when an admin or mod deletes something and not a normal user.QuoteAlso, some of us have noticed posts going missing in the rp forum. Any evidence of that would be in the admin logs, which I wouldn't have access to (and if I did and presented the evidence, again, you would probably have me sued).same reason as above
That must be one heck of a lot of proxies the ip of which you banned. If he knowingly used a proxy, then he could probably just use one you haven't already banned. All you have to do is google "proxy" and you'll receive pages that lists tons of proxies you can use. But a response about Gov's working situation would be nice though.QuoteAlso, if he was using a proxy to get around the restriction, why aren't we seeing him using them to get around the ban? What is even the point of banning him then? If Limi is above the law, and "cares" for Taijitu, why didn't he ban him for the ToS violation before now? There's no way this can be motivated politically or in some other manner.The reason you aren't seeing him getting around the ban is because I have banned the entire range associated with the proxy. The reason I have not banned him before this beccause of the ToS violation is due to his trial. If I banned him then you would be yelling and screaming that I'm trying to circumvent justice by denying him the right to a trial.
As for the admin abuse, I'm sure you remember some of those conversations you had with you witnesses where you had told them not to testify about certain things because of something having to do with "loyalty." You remember that, don't you? If I was to present evidence for that, you would likely sue me. But, the logs are right there on IRC, go have a look. But wait! Some of the IRC logs have "vanished," as Limi admitted to. For all I know, it may not even be there. Again, if I presented evidence for that, you would probably have me sued.
Also, some of us have noticed posts going missing in the rp forum. Any evidence of that would be in the admin logs, which I wouldn't have access to (and if I did and presented the evidence, again, you would probably have me sued).
I didn't say you pressured people into giving you statements, I said you had them agree to not testify on certain things based upon some kind of loyalty. I would LOVE to know how I manipulated people in here. I know you claimed I did with Ithania's testimony, but that claim is bogus. She had stated that she used to hold the position of Deputy Foreign Minister, and I had asked for clarification on that. Is that really manipulation? No. ::) And what do you mean I trick my own rp by having a puppet do my bidding? I do have a puppet nation in the rp, hopefully that doesn't come as a surprise to anybody because I publicly posted that so everyone would know. But there are no links between the two nations, other than I have plans to eventually go to war against Hadera for the oil, but it's supposed to be a failure and end up triggering an economic depression. Happy for me divulging my plans, now? ::) If anybody is "tricking their rp," it's I-S for having not one puppet nation but two, one of which is allied with his main nation.QuoteAs for the admin abuse, I'm sure you remember some of those conversations you had with you witnesses where you had told them not to testify about certain things because of something having to do with "loyalty." You remember that, don't you? If I was to present evidence for that, you would likely sue me. But, the logs are right there on IRC, go have a look. But wait! Some of the IRC logs have "vanished," as Limi admitted to. For all I know, it may not even be there. Again, if I presented evidence for that, you would probably have me sued.
Also, some of us have noticed posts going missing in the rp forum. Any evidence of that would be in the admin logs, which I wouldn't have access to (and if I did and presented the evidence, again, you would probably have me sued).
I doubt I ever pressured anybody into giving me statements, as any prosecutor I have tried to pick witnesses that would serve my case in the best way - unlike you manipulate people in here - and I have proof for that, oh respectable Osamafune. You trick even your own RP by having a poor puppet do your bidding, so don't assume you can talk to me about who you are, I am aware of that all too well.
IRC logs have vanished? One can be rather silly at times, I guess: IRC logs belong to the one who logged them, they're not a forum thread that can be deleted by an administrator. They have vanished where from?
What the RP is concerned, anybody in here knows I haven't spent a minute in my whole NS career doing RP, so again I fail to see the relevance of it. There are RP moderators, I guess they are the ones you should talk to. And See Limi's explanation above for posts that are deleted by the one who has made them.
I think this circus has been going on long enough and I expect the Court to put an end to this situation.