Taijitu
Forum Meta => May 2008 - Government of Taijitu => Government Archive => Archive => The Supreme Court => Topic started by: Gulliver on February 27, 2008, 11:43:50 PM
-
I, Garth Ebner/Myroria, do file a complaint against Delfos due to their violation of Article 1, Section 3 in sending IRC logs to other members against my consent which was to my detriment because my privacy was violated.
This Court will now be hearing this case. Both the Prosecutor and the Defendant have 5 days in which to appear before this Court and make their opening statements.
Note: posting in this thread by any one other than the relevant parties will not be tolerated.
-
Who are the justices involved in this trial?
-
On the twenty-first of January, I recieved a PM from Limitless Events that showed a log of events on the twenty-third of December. Would it help the case if I tearfully said that my grandfather died the next day, clearly of this flagrant violation of the constitution? Cry cry cry.
#taijitu.EsperNet.20071223.log
<Limi|away> this is strange, there are gaps in the admin logs
<Limi|away> which means I'm going to have to look at the thing every single day from now on
When questioned in private:
Session Start: Sun Dec 23 20:25:18 2007
[20:36] <Limi> they're often gaps dealing iwth things ending up in the landfill and no record of who did it
[20:46] -agent-
[20:46] -agent-
[20:47] <Limi> its not in regards to the Govindia case
[20:53] -agent-
[20:54] -agent-
[20:54] <Limi> its not going to happen since a very large majority of posts are in regard to RP
[20:54] -agent-
[20:57] <Limi> but I have an idea about who's doing it and in a day I can see if I'm right
This is a solid proof for the admin abuse case, but prooves "a very large majority of posts are in regard to RP", which means it happened in other parts of the forum. And I witnessed some outside of RP, this is just to say some posts can be deleted in regards of Govindia because these administrators are able to do it.
Korinn in private after asked to unban the undercover agent:
[23:24] <Korinn> I banned you because I believe you are someone that is avoiing a ban
[23:24] <Korinn> I am tempted to ban you from TWPs channel
[00:48] -agent-
[00:48] -agent-
[00:48] <Korinn> You're unbanned. Mistaken identity
(...)
[00:54] -agent- I notice there's some bans on a Govindia
[00:55] -agent-
[00:55] <Korinn> Yeah. I thought hewas using a proxy.
[00:56] -agent-
[00:57] <Korinn> I didn't know that
[01:17] -agent- Why is he banned anyway?
[01:17] -agent-
[01:17] <Korinn> No
[01:18] <Korinn> He was very disruptive. He insulted nearly everyone and alaways started fighting in the channel
[01:18] <Korinn> always*
Session Start: Tue Dec 25 00:48:51 2007
[00:48] *** Now talking in #taijitu
(...)
[03:55] <Korinn> I'm rather sad the defense team in the Gov trial had nothing slanderous to say about me.
[03:55] <Korinn> I was hoping for it, but nothing
[03:55] <Korinn> Must be because I'm perfect ^_^
[03:55] <Myroria> PoD had several things to say about me
[03:55] <Myroria> But I don't care because
[03:55] <Myroria> I'm rooting for him.
[03:55] <Korinn> lol
[03:57] <Korinn> Soly's testimony is such a BS statement. It's so loaded with hiden sarcasm.
[03:57] <Korinn> hidden*
[03:59] <Myroria> Like all the crap he shoots out
(...)
[04:12] <Korinn> Korinn, while not officially on the prosecution, has obviously been working on the prosecution, thus giving a hint of bias in his testimony as well.
[04:13] <Korinn> That's all they got
[04:13] <Korinn> Sad
[04:13] <Korinn> And so wrong
[04:13] <Korinn> They fail at trials
[04:14] <Korinn> And my bias is the fact that I know shit about Gov
[04:22] -agent-
[04:22] -agent-
[04:24] <Korinn> Because I have something called loyalty. There were certain things I was asked to not discuss.
[04:25] -agent-
[04:25] <Korinn> I did.
[04:26] <Korinn> I just held back what I coul've said
[04:26] <Korinn> They assume I was partof the prosecution.
[04:27] -agent-
[04:27] -agent-
[04:28] <Korinn> Which is false. I was helping him by researching how other NS trials were held That's it. I had no part in the rest
(...)
[04:38] <Limi> Gov thinks that security clearence he got is something special
[04:38] <Limi> they're extremely easy to get
[04:40] <Limi> and mine's better <_<
[04:42] <Limi> considering most of what they do is see if you have any contact with people outside the country
[04:42] -agent-
[04:42] <Limi> he was referring to the one he got in RL
[04:44] -agent-
[04:44] -agent-
[05:00] <Korinn> Quote from Gov's statement: To quote Batman Begins, "people fear what they don’t understand."
[05:00] <Korinn> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
[05:00] <Korinn> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
[05:01] <Korinn> Oh shit that's funny
[05:01] <ofcrazed> LOLOLOL
[05:03] <Korinn> Oh man, his statement is so quotable and lulzy
[05:03] <Korinn> "I have seen poor Barakarin mistreated poorly even though he doesn’t understand a few things, and others."
[05:03] <Korinn> Bara likes it
[05:03] <Korinn> It's a running joke
[05:04] <Korinn> Gov is so clueless as to what happens in this region
[05:05] <Korinn> LOL, and he's such a hypocrite
[05:05] <Korinn> He bitches about people being trolls in his statement, while his statement is one long troll
[05:05] <Korinn> Lulzy to the max
[05:06] <Korinn> "Very few people have given me a reasonable chance to show I am a friendly person"
[05:06] <Korinn> LOLOLOLOL
[05:07] <Korinn> Oh fuck, It's killing me.
[05:08] <ofcrazed> hahahahaha
[05:09] <ofcrazed> Kor if you dont make a parody thread I will be sad
[05:09] <Korinn> lol
[05:12] <Korinn> It's funny how he doesn't metion that the whole time this "discrimination" was going on, he constatnly insulted other peoples lifestyle. Or how only he was right on every subject.
[05:12] <Korinn> constantly*
The exact context this was used in was to allow Delfos to provide evidence of a non-existant mafia or cabal among the founders. Apparently my separate grievances against my fellow founders was not enough to convince him that I was not part of some cabal. Shall I include Delfos' conclusion following the log?
To clear things up, the log was provided with this "conclusion" after it. It was only afterwards I was informed of this by Limitless Events.
-
Defense wishes to present an inquiry as to how this evidence came to be acquired by Limitless Events to begin with.
-
I will be the Justice for this trial.
As both parties have shown, I believe we can continue.
To Xyrael's query on the behalf of Delfos: I would imagine he logged the IRC channel. The question though doesn't seem relevant to the matter at hand.
To Myroria, I would like to ask a question. You say that you received this IRC log from Limi. Yet you are here to sue Delfos for distributing this log, not Limi. Can you provide evidence that Delfos, rather than Limi, distributed this IRC Log without your persmission?
-
I do not recognize this trial with the current justices to be a fair one, I would like a neutral justice member to attend this trial.
-
The trial will continue as is; I am fully confident in my ability to rule fairly and impartially.
Besides, the way I see it, if any disagreements I've had with you in the past really do automatically make me biased against you, then I''d be just as biased against Myroria. I've had just as many if not more spats with him. The net result would be that neither of you would have any special favor versus the other in my eyes, that is to say I'd still be neutral anyway.
-
I came across this PM while searching through the database to discover if anyone had been indeed been deleting posts and abusing admin powers after Delfos brought the issue to my attention. The PM in question was sent using the account name of "CILT", which has since been banned, and contained logs that occurred during the time the nick of cilt_eye was in the IRC channel #taijitu . This nick used the IP of Delfos' account and upon tracing the IP of the account CILT it was discovered to originate from the same area as Delfos. The PM sent from the account CILT was sent to the accounts of Delfos and Gallipoli-China; The conclusion stated at the end of the PM was sent to Osafune.
To further the connection that the account CILT is also Delfos PMs were sent by Delfos to Gallipoli-China ocncerning the "investigation" after the account in question was banned.
I later informed those in the log to find out if they had given permission for the log in question to be distributed and if not, whether or not they wished to press charges.
-
Thank you Limi.
Delfos: Did you indeed use the account CILT to distribute this log to Gallipoli-China without the permission of Myroria as Limi has indicated?
Also, additionally, Limi: can you provide a date for when the material in question was distributed by PM?
-
According to the Laws of Taijitu, Article One Section Two states that:
2. The dissemination of private materials of any Citizen of Taijitu as defined in Section 3 of this article shall be forbidden, excepting where authorized by that Citizen or Citizens, or by a warrant of the Supreme Court of Taijitu issued on probable cause.
Was Limi authorized by the Supreme Court of Taijitu to access the PM's of the account in question based on probable cause of administration power abuse?
-
That is not what this trial is for. If you believe Limi has broken the law please bring it up in another trial. We are here to hear Myroria's case against Delfos.
-
The PM was sent approximately 65 days ago. Finding the exact time it was sent is way more trouble than I wish to go through right now.
As for my viewing of the PM I suggest that you do not use a proxy account to send message when the same name is used by you on IRC with your actual IP and then start the message with phrases such as: "#taijitu", "EsperNet", or "Limi|away"
As for going to look into the PMs in the first place, as a root admin if it is brought to my attention that one of the admins is abusing their powers I have every right to search for evidence to back up the accusation in order to protect the forum
-
If this was sent in a private message between three(two) parties, then it was sent on the premise that this information would be kept private, and not made public.
As Gallipoli-China was a Justice at the time, it appears to me that the intent was to provide evidence for an investigation into admins, and not to disseminate private information to the public forum as Myroria claims.
In order to disseminate evidence about this "conspiracy theory", Delfos would have needed to make this information widely public to tarnish the name of Myroria and others. This evidence only came to light through the investigation of Private Messages by Limitless Events.
edit: My assumption has been confirmed by Delfos. That was indeed his intent, therefore not heresay.
-
Limitless Events has the authority, as per the forum's terms of agreement, to in extraordinary situations search through Private Messages: he has done nothing wrong. More importantly that is not the issue here. I will not allow any further discussion of this separate issue in this trial from now on.
And even if it was given to G-C solely with the intent of aiding some investigation it was nonetheless distributing an IRC log without the permission of one of those involved.
So, to repeat my question.
Delfos: Did you indeed use the account CILT to distribute this log to Gallipoli-China without the permission of Myroria as Limi has indicated? And if you did did you have a warrant issued by the Court to do so? I expect an answer.
-
Delfos has refused to speak at this trial, and has asked for me to do so in his stead. In the event that my forwarding of his thoughts is insufficient, I will urge my client to come forward himself. If not necessary, I speak on his behalf as per his request.
Delfos, using CILT, did send the log in question to Gallipoli-China on the 25th of December GMT. However, Delfos was unaware that he was committing a crime at the time of this action. Delfos was involved as a witness for the Defense in the Govindia case. Under the personal request of Gallipoli-China via MSN, Delfos was asked to provide evidence he said he had saved for two days to Gallipoli-China. Read the log dates as evidence, logs were taken from the 23rd and 25th of December. The message was sent at approximately 7-8am GMT if I am to presume the last active as the time of messaging. As you can clearly see, the log is clearly intended for use in the Govindia case, as each snippet relates to 'gov' in some way.
Not fully understanding the laws and proceedings of court cases, indeed unaware of the location of the Laws of Taijitu, my client went with the perception of real world law as similar to Taijitu Forum law and wanted to do something good for someone he perceived to be a fellow Taiji. My client presumed that as the statements made by the Prosecution were made in a public IRC easily accessible through publically available links available to citizens and non-citizens alike that any information to be forwarded to Gallipoli-China as per his request would be legal. The necessity for a warrant was not stressed to the client by the Justice, a trusted representative of the community and overseer of the trial to which this log pertained. The responsibility for my clients err is in the negligence and bias of the Justice in handling the court case, and not in the intentional will to break the law.
Proof of the Justice's bias is in the consistent and persistent inactivity to date of Gallipoli-China to date since the 28th of January on both the forum and MSN. This is a mere 10 days after the flames of the Govindia case settled. Gallipoli-China confided in me in private that the Govindia case disenchanted him, and made him believe that "Taijitu is no better than the Lexicon."
-
If Gallipoli-China specifically requested this information from Delfos then this was legal, as G-C as a Justice of the Court has the power to request such information if they feel it is necessary for a case. And probable, as the Gov trial was indeed underway when this PM was sent.
It would be ideal if G-C were present to ask for a confirmation of this, but he is not available. Can Delfos present any direct evidence that G-C specifically requested this?
-
The perceived request was made via MSN. I have asked Delfos to check his MSN chat logs.
~
The following is the MSN log of the coversation with the Justice, Gallipoli China, where G-C
lex - merry xmas
Gallipoli - same.
lex - thanks
lex - are you going to jury Gov's case?
Gallipoli - Yeah; we're going to deliberate and we hope to be done by the 27th
lex - hmmm
lex - I've been investigating
Gallipoli - DON'T TELL ME HERE. This is an off-the-record area. Say it in the trial thread, or in a PM to one or the other Councils.
lex - huh
lex - I can tell you here
lex - and PM everything in the forums if you want
lex - because I don't know how relevant it is
Gallipoli - I'd really prefer you don't tell me anything here.
Gallipoli - Trial-related, that is.
lex - well I can still say something...right?
Gallipoli - sure...
lex - seems the problem is that either the Defense or the Prosecution doesn't quesiton each other's testifiers
lex - and specially in one of the side, there's things still covered
lex - and btw, it does discriminat
lex - *discriminate
lex - what can Justice do about discrimination?
Gallipoli - That's why we prefer IRC trials: you can do that.
lex - yes
lex - still they could try to question them outside the forum to the case
lex - it's a good thing to be undercover in a channel where Govindia and any other defense isn't present ;)
lex - wnat me to PM you everything?
Gallipoli - Sure.
Delfos took this to mean he was allowed to PM the evidence to Gallipoli-China. In addition, Delfos says the conclusion was sent to the other Councils, as G-C said. TGR received this message, and shortly after Osafune. (Sadly, these messages don't have the original recipients quoted when you forward them like e-mails do) This message was forwarded to my message inbox from Delfos as per my request for use in the case, and is quoted:
The conclusion read as follows:
There's a group of people that bound themselves with "loyalty". This group will defend their collective interests, and most if not all of the prosecution is part of this group, and it calls testifiers in base of "loyalty". Some if not all testifiers have agreed with the prosecution about matters that shouldn't be exposed for some reason. Still, the court of taijitu should find out this issues that are being kept secret from the Defense, otherwise this may seem an arranged trial.
Warning: Please do not reveal the source or use any of the content without asking 1st, since it may compromise this and the upcoming investigations.
Be careful to who you share this sensible information.
The conclusion to G-C read slightly longer (summarizing the proof), and was the only one with proof attached. If the court wishes I can post this extended conclusion. It was also sent a day before the conclusions were delivered to Osafune and TGR. Delfos states this conclusion was delivered to Allama in some form as well, but says his outbox does not show which format was sent. Delfos delivered these conclusions a full 36 hours after the initial proof was delivered to G-C.
edit: I request that, should a verdict be decided upon, it be delivered while my client and I are present on the forum, or with sufficient time to view the verdict. For now, I need sleep.
edit: included further, clearer MSN logs
-
Well, at this point it seems clear to me that the defendant did indeed have the permission of a member of the Court to issue those logs to them, which is perfectly legal. Nevertheless before making my final verdict I would like to offer the prosecution a chance to respond.
-
This is an aside - as I know I am not actually involved in this case - but on the issue of Limi reading the PMs - when you sign up for this forum, you sign an agreement which I suggest you people read...
I quote a small passage...
Finally, we'd like to note some things about what we (the admins) can and cannot see, for full disclosure:
1. We cannot see your password. Not will not, cannot.
2. While we do not intend to do so, it is possible for us to look at Private Messages.
3. As noted above, we see your IP addresses. If they are proxies, we get annoyed.
4. This forum has a feature that can make polls not anoymous.
When you signed up, you did so agreeing that we could look at Private Messages if necessary.
-
:D Alright, I was just remarking on the use of the ability for court cases without court permission. IRL evidence uncovered through illegal searches is almost always barred. However, I'm not pushing the issue any further.
Now... to wait for prosecution to post...
-
Whether the logs were allowed by Gallipoli-China or not does not matter. The Constitution states that the Supreme Court shall take logs if there is probable cause [that a crime is being committed]. No where in the relevant section does it say that the Supreme Court can take logs without permission for use as evidence. Gallipoli-China is just as much at fault for accepting the evidence, but he is not on the forum to file a case against.
The logs were not taken by Gallipoli-China as probable cause. They were sent, and accepted, as evidence for a non-existant conspiracy. It's not against the law to be an asshole, and that hardly qualifies as harassment against Govindia.
The defense's bulk argument states that Delfos was unaware that the law forbade him from sending the logs - being unaware does not make one immune. In addition, the Defense states that Delfos was doing what one would do in the real world - logging telephone conversations, for example, is illegal without a warrant, at least in the United States.
The defense claims that Delfos did what was morally right - there's a difference between what's morally right and what's legally right. And, to be honest, with no probable cause, sending those logs was indeed a violation of the Constitution. Not intending to break the law is nor a good reason - one can be charged for manslaughter, though you did not mean to kill someone. One can be charged for shoplifting, if, and excuse the stretch, an elderly man forgets he forgot to pay for something and walks out of the store with it.
-
CONCLUSION
There's a group of people that bound themselves with "loyalty". This group will defend their collective interests, and most if not all of the prosecution is part of this group, and it calls testifiers in base of "loyalty". Some if not all testifiers have agreed with the prosecution about matters that shouldn't be exposed for some reason. This is yet a prime conclusion on the comments generated by the trial, and with some more time I will be able to see how deep and wide is this group.
I've already started to question some citizens that may be involved in this case. Still, the court of taijitu should find out this issues that are eing kept secret from the Defense, otherwise this may seem an arranged trial.
If you delay this enough time without pressing too much this "group" for answers, they may reveal some more of their strategy used for this secrets, or the secrets themselves. Give me your opinion and call for what I should try to know before the trial ends.
Warning: Please do not reveal the source or use any of the content without asking 1st, since it may compromise this and the upcoming investigations.
Be careful to who you share this information, I certainly suspect, if you're not yourself part of this 'mafia', some other Justice members might be part of it.
From the talented: Criminal Investigation Laboratory of Taijitu
The part in bold was added specifically for G-C. It refers to this 'cult' as specifically the testifiers and prosecution, and goes no further than this. Delfos' belief fixated on the notion that, on all levels, an inescapable prejudice was bent on banning Gov, whether based on fact or not, and that these individuals would twist the truth to their end to acheive their goals. This corruption of fact to suit personal agenda would have violated Article 2 Section 8, if I am not mistaken.
Delfos expressed concerns that the Justice's themselves may have been biased against Gov as well, as he asked G-C himself if G-C was involved in this crusade to ban Gov.
6. The harassment of any person shall be forbidden.
12. Conspiracy to commit or aid in any of the crimes stated herein shall be forbidden.
Delfos believed that there were conspirators at work attempting to harass (via banning) Govindia. G-C at least believed the manner in which the trial was being conducted was suspect. Probable cause.
Furthermore, signing onto AIM with a chat log recorder and moving into a chat room and saving those logs automatically isn't illegal and doesn't require permission from all within the said chat room. Also, undercover agents posing as children to apprehend pedophiles last year resulted in the single largest pedophile porn ring bust in Los Angeles history, with around 300 seperate individuals being recorded and leading to the arrest of several dozen.
I am not saying the recorded subjects are equivalent to pedophiles, but Delfos did not go out of his way to hack your MSN account and record conversations you had while he was not present. So no, that doesn't equate to wire tapping your land-line phone conversations (although cellular phone calls, within the United States, are not protected by privacy laws as well as land lines, that's a different subject).
-
Xyrael is correct: Delfos and anyone is perfectly free to collect logs of any conversations in which they've been involved. Besides, that is not the issue here.
Unless either side has anything more to say I believe I will take some time to deliberate a decision.
-
I am finished.
-
I have reached a decision.
Firstly, Delfos beyond a doubt did send out IRC logs in which Myroria was involved without his permission. Delfos himself has through his legal counsel confessed this. This is indeed in most circumstances under the Legal Code. However, the Legal Code does provide an exception. Private materials such as IRC logs can be distributed without the permission of those involved to Justices if requested by those Justices as part of a trial on reasonable basis.
When these logs were sent out by Delfos there was indeed a trial going on, that concerning Govindia. As the MSN conversations presented show Gallipoli-China did indeed effectively request these logs. As Gallipoli-China was a Justice in this case it is my opinion that this does constitute a warrant issued on probable cause to obtain information which might aid him as a Justice in deciding a case. The cause in this case being the worry that the trial being conducted might have been in some compromised and subsequently unfair.
As it turns out the evidence that was requested was rather poor and proved nothing what so ever but nonetheless that does not change the fact that its distribution to a Justice of the Court was warranted by that Justice in the pursuit of ruling on a case. Thus I find myself compelled to rule in favor of Delfos.