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Author Topic: Political Compass  (Read 5141 times)

Offline Wast

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2015, 05:44:16 AM »
Edit: Nevermind.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 05:45:58 AM by Wast »

Offline Allama

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2015, 02:56:19 PM »

Offline St Oz

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Offline bigbaldben

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2015, 08:46:39 PM »
Quote
"A truly FREE market," or the freest it can be, will always benefit the economy.
What exactly is your definition of a free market? Is it the lowest possible amount of regulation? That's such a common misconception among quizzes, articles, political debates. The free market is a lot more complicated than some think, and I think the best measure for a free market is by how competitive it is

I'm of the opinion that there has to be regulation on several different levels of the economy.  That's why I'm not very far right on economics, I think.  Lowest possible amount of regulation leaves far too much possibility of human bad behavior and greed to flourish - monopolies, collusion, along with all the investment and financial manipulation that I can't even begin to understand. 

To your point, yeah, I hear a lot of talk about the free market exactly as you describe - no regulation.

The people I know who push the "freest market possible" admit there needs to be some regulation -- but like anything remotely political, they push for something unrealistic knowing that setting the bar so far away will get them where we "should" be, i.e. a free-er economy. 

This is a galling part of politics for me.

I know many people in the NRA who have no interest in owning assault rifles and the like, and they don't really think that others need it either, but they will support and push for that right because it's a step further away from what they really fear, which is an appeal or re-framing of the second amendment.

Extremism.  And what do opponents do?  Push in the extreme the other way.  And then you have no room to compromise.  And that's America in 2015.  A bunch of people running around saying crazy things, each trying to out-crazy the other.

Offline St Oz

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2015, 04:03:36 PM »
Quote
The people I know who push the "freest market possible" admit there needs to be some regulation -- but like anything remotely political, they push for something unrealistic knowing that setting the bar so far away will get them where we "should" be, i.e. a free-er economy.

I once met a libertarian from Ft. Worth, Texas, and I brought up how not all regulation is good, there are colluding, monopolistic regulations too. The State of Texas was lobbied by the city of Ft. Worth to prevent Dallas Love Field from making flights beyond cities one state away, but Dallas-Fort Worth International, located near Fort Worth, was free from this regulation. Eventually the guy who lobbied the whole thing died and the law preventing love field from doing making flights beyond one state expired with his corrupt cowboy ass.

This libertarian was shocked by what I said, more so than I thought he would because I thought he'd agree with me. However he, remember a libertarian, argued that DFW's domestic flights could never compete with love field making full domestic flights because it has a better location, lower hassle, less confusing traffic situation, and is cheaper to park at. He then said that regulation was necessary. Moral of this story, people who are libertarian have their exceptions, and they're just ignorant to the rest of the problems needing fixed because they don't affect them.

Offline bigbaldben

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2015, 08:55:40 PM »
Quote
The people I know who push the "freest market possible" admit there needs to be some regulation -- but like anything remotely political, they push for something unrealistic knowing that setting the bar so far away will get them where we "should" be, i.e. a free-er economy.

I once met a libertarian from Ft. Worth, Texas, and I brought up how not all regulation is good, there are colluding, monopolistic regulations too. The State of Texas was lobbied by the city of Ft. Worth to prevent Dallas Love Field from making flights beyond cities one state away, but Dallas-Fort Worth International, located near Fort Worth, was free from this regulation. Eventually the guy who lobbied the whole thing died and the law preventing love field from doing making flights beyond one state expired with his corrupt cowboy ass.

This libertarian was shocked by what I said, more so than I thought he would because I thought he'd agree with me. However he, remember a libertarian, argued that DFW's domestic flights could never compete with love field making full domestic flights because it has a better location, lower hassle, less confusing traffic situation, and is cheaper to park at. He then said that regulation was necessary. Moral of this story, people who are libertarian have their exceptions, and they're just ignorant to the rest of the problems needing fixed because they don't affect them.

Wow, yeah, that's the exact opposite of what you would expect from a free market ideologue.  Do you have a high opinion of this guy's intelligence?  Or does it matter if he just doesn't have the mental capacity to see how he contradicted himself or if he knows he contradicted himself but doesn't care?  Which is worse?

Your example is not exactly what I'm trying to understand, but it's close.  People recite their standard libertarian/republican/liberal talking points without a care for the vast number of times they have convenient "exceptions" or opinions based on rationale that is non-transferable to other subjects.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2015, 11:02:23 PM »
This libertarian was shocked by what I said, more so than I thought he would because I thought he'd agree with me. However he, remember a libertarian, argued that DFW's domestic flights could never compete with love field making full domestic flights because it has a better location, lower hassle, less confusing traffic situation, and is cheaper to park at. He then said that regulation was necessary. Moral of this story, people who are libertarian have their exceptions, and they're just ignorant to the rest of the problems needing fixed because they don't affect them.

The 1% problems are fascinating.

Offline St Oz

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2015, 11:26:39 PM »
Lol, II don't think highly of any libertarian's intelligence. Nor do I think too highly of any extremist's.

Offline Wast

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2015, 11:42:10 PM »
Your example is not exactly what I'm trying to understand, but it's close.  People recite their standard libertarian/republican/liberal talking points without a care for the vast number of times they have convenient "exceptions" or opinions based on rationale that is non-transferable to other subjects.

Time to make a second attempt at the thing I deleted earlier...

I think people believe that concessions in service of an ideal are pragmatism rather than hypocrisy. If the ideal society cannot be achieved, then it is better to compromise to do the best we can. In a consequentialist framework, this is philosophically consistent. The trouble is that libertarianism (and most formulations of liberalism) don't fit into that framework - they're rights-based instead (*). The rhetoric, reflecting the philosophical basis (or not), tends to be framed around 'rights' instead. Even though no one cares about political philosophy, the contradiction between 'rights' and 'doing-what-makes-society-best' is apparent, especially if the rhetoric isn't very precisely articulated.

The oversimplified version, in my view, is something like this: Libertarians want to start with the ideal of no government, and add just enough to have the 'minimal' size to keep society working. Liberals imagine a (large) government that secures the welfare of society, and trim it to keep society as free as possible. Whichever side you're on, you end up somewhere in the middle - the only difference is context, and who you irrationally dismiss as wrong.

(*) I don't actually remember any of this, so I'm probably wrong.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 11:47:29 PM by Wast »

Offline Delfos

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2015, 12:31:29 AM »
Your example is not exactly what I'm trying to understand, but it's close.  People recite their standard libertarian/republican/liberal talking points without a care for the vast number of times they have convenient "exceptions" or opinions based on rationale that is non-transferable to other subjects.

Time to make a second attempt at the thing I deleted earlier...

I think people believe that concessions in service of an ideal are pragmatism rather than hypocrisy. If the ideal society cannot be achieved, then it is better to compromise to do the best we can. In a consequentialist framework, this is philosophically consistent. The trouble is that libertarianism (and most formulations of liberalism) don't fit into that framework - they're rights-based instead (*). The rhetoric, reflecting the philosophical basis (or not), tends to be framed around 'rights' instead. Even though no one cares about political philosophy, the contradiction between 'rights' and 'doing-what-makes-society-best' is apparent, especially if the rhetoric isn't very precisely articulated.

The oversimplified version, in my view, is something like this: Libertarians want to start with the ideal of no government, and add just enough to have the 'minimal' size to keep society working. Liberals imagine a (large) government that secures the welfare of society, and trim it to keep society as free as possible. Whichever side you're on, you end up somewhere in the middle - the only difference is context, and who you irrationally dismiss as wrong.

(*) I don't actually remember any of this, so I'm probably wrong.
It gets much worse if you try to grasp the more leftist versions of libertarianism, many come from anarchist/communist/socialist movements that sprouted all over Europe in the 1800s. Many of these discard the more...unorganized thoughts of Anarchism (Bakunin's ramblings) and they tend to be linked with political philosophies that heavily criticized the communist/Bolshevik regimes or organizations, and now they tend to criticize the "Social-Democrat" thought pushing it to the right-wing field when many of this neo-libs are likely agreeing in part with the "social state" yet going for economic freedom/pro-private sectors.

They probably have a similar path from the American Libertarianism except in the opposite spectrum of politics. Like Wast said, they focus much more on individual rights/civil liberties and they see the decay of solidarity on the lower class through economic constriction. In their quirky way these vile creatures are anti-capitalist.

Many of these can be simply put as being anarchic for everything but the defense of basic rights...erm..social state then, in a way they are socialist who don't want a heavy regime taking over the strings, many embracing ideals that give more autonomy to small areas of territory so that there's less centralization and more processes of decision being public and participative.

Now comes the nuances.
Collectivist anarchism is pretty much advocates a territory is just a collection of participist communes where there's no actual land owners. People work on whatever there's to do and they get a say as much as anybody else. Very pretty but...erm...don't those weird religious cults in the middle of the USA kinda use a distorted doctrine similar to this?

Anarcho-syndicalism is similar to the last one except it's more like a "silent" proletariat dictatorship with local organizations to avoid any tendency to elitism and the creation of government.

Libertarian Socialism are the ones I modeled to make the beginning of this post, those ugly know-it-all bastards think they can create a society that regulates civil-liberties but then throw it all to the pigs by not having a centralized hierarchic government from which to run the territory. Instead they tend to think like the collective anarchists in which people can govern themselves out of necessity.

Mutualism is pretty much an anarchic society of entrepreneurs/creative people.

Anarcho-communism is the most Frankenstein of them all, yet one of the most successful historically, being one of the drivers towards the revolutions and their subsequent failures and demise of democracy in Spain, Italy and Russia. They are the reasons of the rise of dictators in these countries, and without WWII they'd have survived and likely still be a challenging force to it all. They all died tragically, either devoured or imprisoned by Bolsheviks, either bombed by Hitler's and Mussolini's bombers in Spain, or starved and skinned and stoned to death in Italy's lovely landscapes.

There are more nuances but "Libertarians" in europe kinda spring from any of these dark, shady, dirty corners. Now there is only world guru, Noam Chomsky :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance: :obeisance:

Offline AwesomeSaucer

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2015, 01:01:49 AM »
I would consider myself pretty libertarian on most issues (especially social).  Of course, regulation needs to exist where it needs to exist, but a free market is (almost) always a good thing.
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Offline bigbaldben

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2015, 09:26:35 PM »
Your example is not exactly what I'm trying to understand, but it's close.  People recite their standard libertarian/republican/liberal talking points without a care for the vast number of times they have convenient "exceptions" or opinions based on rationale that is non-transferable to other subjects.

Time to make a second attempt at the thing I deleted earlier...

I think people believe that concessions in service of an ideal are pragmatism rather than hypocrisy. If the ideal society cannot be achieved, then it is better to compromise to do the best we can. In a consequentialist framework, this is philosophically consistent. The trouble is that libertarianism (and most formulations of liberalism) don't fit into that framework - they're rights-based instead (*). The rhetoric, reflecting the philosophical basis (or not), tends to be framed around 'rights' instead. Even though no one cares about political philosophy, the contradiction between 'rights' and 'doing-what-makes-society-best' is apparent, especially if the rhetoric isn't very precisely articulated.

What is this "consequetialist" of which you speak?

Regardless, are you saying that individual rights and best-for-society ideals are mutually exclusive?  In that the more you have of one, the less of the other?  And that it gets worse when people can't or don't explain the trade offs that they personally would like to see?

Interesting.  I'll have to mull over my own political philosophy in this framework.

Offline Wast

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2015, 09:43:59 PM »
I don't think they're mutually exclusive, but they are fundamentally different. By 'consequentialist' I mean judging the goodness (or rightness) of something by its consequences. In a rights-based framework, you start by claiming people have certain rights that need to be protected (property, privacy, liberty etc.) and then go from there. So there are situations where it would be wrong to take away rights even if society as a whole might be improved in some other way (this sentiment comes up often in America with respect to things like freedom of expression). This is much more rigid than the approach that just assigns some value to protecting rights and weighs it against other benefits.

People seem to have a habit of claiming they have certain rights (like FREEDOM), but failing to articulate exactly what they are.


Offline Lindisfarne

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2015, 08:52:08 PM »
Where can this test be taken?
.

Offline bigbaldben

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Re: Political Compass
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2015, 09:07:14 PM »