Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Wast on November 25, 2015, 06:35:12 AM
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Note: This new thread is intended for substantive discussion. I have locked the other thread.
This is becoming a pattern. The GP side makes a point, and it is automatically construed as some sort of unjustified attack by the RP side, followed by a platitude about finding common ground.
You say you want to find common ground, but in your response you make no acknowledgement that you may have misinterpreted Funkadelia's tone and dismissed him outright and then throw back the exact same accusation.
You say you want this to be a conversation, but you keep placing the burden of proof on the GP side and setting the bar for satisfying that burden impossibly high. That's not a fair, amicable conversation. That's a trial.
Gulliver has noted the problem here. I am going to attempt to intervene (in my official capacity as moderator of the Ecclesia) and steer the discussion into something more productive.
Prydainia, please be specific. You're being vague about your concerns. Is the claim here that the non-GPers feel like they are being marginalized or are not having their interests considered? If so, a specific set of examples would help. If you're claiming there's a pattern here, show it. The issue with Dyr in taijitu_tavern is one example, but it isn't sufficient. The escalation of the past few days is not an example - it's just another vicious cycle of misunderstanding spawned from whatever the fundamental issue is.
I think that the burden should be on the aggrieved to do two things to move the discussion forward: (1) identify their grievances and (2) to suggest a resolution. A statement like 'co-opting some of our space' needs to be specific. What space? What space do you want to have that you currently do not?
Let's have a substantive discussion. No platitudes, no accusations, no apologies.
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Prydainia, please be specific. You're being vague about your concerns. Is the claim here that the non-GPers feel like they are being marginalized or are not having their interests considered? If so, a specific set of examples would help. If you're claiming there's a pattern here, show it...
A statement like 'co-opting some of our space' needs to be specific. What space? What space do you want to have that you currently do not?
Well Wast, the space I wanted for RPers was a Taijitu-aligned IRC channel for role players run by role players. Not a position I feel is all that radical, or demanding.
I believed that since #taijitu_tavern already existed, and was nominally stated to be for role players, that it would be ideal to reform that. Rather then create a new RP-centric room from scratch. One that would have to exist alongside #taijitu_tavern, and possibly confuse people as to what the "proper" RP channel was.
The easiest way to get that space for Taijitu RPers on IRC was to "re-dedicate" the RP room already there. Or so I thought.
The "co-opting our space" statement comes from two distinct yet connected instances.
The first was that the tavern began to be used by GP players to discuss GP matters. Which, as Elu explained to me over IRC, turned into a place to have torrid conversations because it was a private room. In that sense? The space supposedly set aside for role players was co-opted twice. First by turning it into a room to discuss GP rather then RP and secondly into a place where, well, the incident took place. In both cases a space that had been set aside for role players was being used for purposes other then RP discussion and world building.
The second instance was Dyr's OP status. You claimed it's not sufficient Wast. I disagree. As Gulliver explained to me, Dyr is a proven mod. And of that I have no argument. I've never had a problem with him personally, and I've never had reason to question is qualifications as an OP on IRC.
That, however, is besides the point. I know to some people here that is important. He's a good OP, he should be an OP. Except that argument misses the point entirely. He's stated he has no interest in role playing, but likes to read the RP and world building discussions. That's cool. He can do that as a regular channel visitor. He doesn't need to be an OP to do that. Having a dedicated GPer who has publicly stated he has no interest in RP OPing a RP room? That looks bad to RPers. And it furthers the perception that our space on IRC has been co-opted.
The "only talk about world building when Delfos is here" joke also adds to that. Making light of the fact that RPers would actually want to talk about RP in the designated Taijitu RP room only added to that perception.
Now wast, you asked what do we want that we don't have. Well that's kind of a tricky question. My goal had been to reform #taijitu_tavern. When that obviously wasn't going to fly...when it became obvious we couldn't raise the conversation without someone getting hurt...I formally dropped the proposal to legislate it a page or two back.
I registered a new IRC Channel. #taijitu_cabana. The goal is for it to be everything #taijitu_tavern was supposed to be. Primarily for RP and world building discussion. And in the hands of Taijitu RPers. So we have that space now.
We didn't, however, when I first raised the issue.
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As for this specific issue? It seems like a few of my fellow RPers didn't like the idea of a gameplayer like Dyr, a person who has gone on record saying he will never engage in RP, OP'ing the region's nominal RP-centric IRC channel.
To some of us? It was the principal of the matter. You wouldn't have a RPer moderate a gameplay channel or subforum. So why was the inverse ok?
To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.
Do you honestly feel like there is an attempt to change the status-quo, to take away RPing spaces from RPers? I think there is no shortage of them in this board. Not only that, but I think they are generally in more prominent location in this board than GPer spaces.
As for the specific issue of #taijitu_tavern, my understanding is that the channel is not solely designed for RPers, though I would be happily corrected on that.
Even if it is intended to be solely, or mostly, used by RPers, I also think it's a tad ridiculous to make such a big deal over who has OPs. It's making mountains out of molehills, basically.
In #trr, we have a collection of OPs based on not only their familiarity with TRR, but also their qualifications and capacity to discharge the administrative duties of OPs -- keep the channel civil, deal with spammers, et cetera. TRR is primarily a gameplay region, but we have RPers as OPs. We also have non-citizens as OPs. In #fra, we have people not involved with the FRA at all as OPs. It's extremely common-practice, across NS channels, to have 'outsiders' as OPs.
Regardless, is Dyr being OP really worth fighting a massive war over? By specifically targeting a player, you're not exactly helping tensions either. And him being OP doesn't actually diminish from your capacity to use the channel for RP.
What would people like to see change in the region? Ask yourself that, don't answer me.
Well Guy, I'm going to answer you.
I would like to see more trust, more mutual respect, between the various niches here. Gameplayers and role players are two prominent examples, but there are smaller, overlapping groups. And there seems to be a lot of tension between those divides. Made worse by the fact that these lines aren't so clear cut.
So how do we achieve this mutual respect? This trust? Well a lot of that is self-evident. Let's take you and I, Guy. You're a GPer and I'm a RPer. Beyond that though? We also fall into two other niches. You seem very pro-defender, and I'm of an independent mindset. Well a few days back we were discussing independentism on the main #taijitu channel and you described the independent ideology to that of a vulture. I don't think I need to go deeper here to explain why I may not have taken that in a positive way.
I bring that up because I think it's a perfect illustration of what's wrong here. Many of us just see each other as the personification of a label or ideology. You didn't see me as a person explaining how I feel about the raider vs defender dynamic, Guy. You saw me as a thing representing an ideology you disagreed with, and that made it ok in your mind to treat me rudely.
We're all guilty of it to some extent. That person is a GPer. Or a RPer. Or he's just an advocate for direct democracy. Or a strong central regional government. Or a social democrat. Or a conservative. Or a libertarian. Or a socialist. And that's a problem. When someone isn't seen as a person, just a personification of a label, it's easier to brush their concerns aside. Or dismiss their point of view. Or just treat them poorly in general.
So that's what I think we need to do here. Realise that everyone is someone. Not just a label. And if we start thinking of each other as people who are greater then the niches or ideologies we subscribe to? We just might start treating each other as people too.
First, with regards to the 'vulture' comment, it was in jest. I think what seemed most ironic out of your post is that we should look past labels (a sentiment that is of course laudable, but equally at least as old as me in this game) and yet you immediately categorised me, and more importantly, my statements (as 'rude'). You then also viewed the very first thing I said as condescending, when it was really aimed at diffusing tensions by taking to the extreme some of the statements here (and thus showing how they're ridiculous etc).
It's all good and well, and people should try to hammer out their personal differences -- not even 'for the good of the region', but for their own goods. It sucks to have a personal conflict in NS. It's not what it's for.
On the non-personal matters, though, it seems (especially from your last post) that #taijitu_tavern is the main issue.
If it was indeed intended to be an RP space, I'd suggest that that be respected. If it was intended to be a general "private citizens' room", I suggest it maintain this character. If you can't agree what it is ... Have two channels, for christ's sake.
For the reasons above, though, I think it's silly to take away OPs.
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I'm disturbed also Funkadelia, Myroria, Gulliver, and I (?) have been labelled as "GPers" and not "RPers" if I'm reading this correctly.
Eluvatar was made to RP, it is my primary RP nation, I have put god knows how much thought into what Eluvatar is like and how it fits in with the other Taijitu RP nations.
Gulliver has long been one of our key RPers. From Rykkovaa to Mor'Os.
Myrorian stories and drama have been an excellent RP medium as well, and Myroria has even been gracious enough to share his country with Oz and I for our characters to interrelate.
Funkadelia, too, has RPed. He has a carefully imagined polity and has also considered how it interrelates with others in the region and its own past.
Just as Sovereign Dixie or Prydania, we're involved in both.
Dyr of course is actually not an RPer. However, I really don't see why this makes him an enemy to some here. I registered a new IRC Channel. #taijitu_cabana. The goal is for it to be everything #taijitu_tavern was supposed to be. Primarily for RP and world building discussion. And in the hands of Taijitu RPers. So we have that space now.
We didn't, however, when I first raised the issue.
That turns out not to be the case.
#taijitu_tavern was primarily for RP/world building discussion. #taijitu_tavern was in the hands of Taijitu RPers: Myroria is channel founder, and several RPers are auto-OPed.
This feels not to be about including RPers, but about excluding GPers, and that is not okay.
Edit2: To clarify, I'm not saying this was deliberate.
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The "only talk about world building when Delfos is here" joke also adds to that. Making light of the fact that RPers would actually want to talk about RP in the designated Taijitu RP room only added to that perception.
I wasn't a big fan of the joke, but I didn't understand it the way you seem to have: I understood it as "if Delfos is here, then don't talk about anything but RP" not as "only talk about RP if Delfos is here."
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As for this specific issue? It seems like a few of my fellow RPers didn't like the idea of a gameplayer like Dyr, a person who has gone on record saying he will never engage in RP, OP'ing the region's nominal RP-centric IRC channel.
To some of us? It was the principal of the matter. You wouldn't have a RPer moderate a gameplay channel or subforum. So why was the inverse ok?
To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.
Do you honestly feel like there is an attempt to change the status-quo, to take away RPing spaces from RPers? I think there is no shortage of them in this board. Not only that, but I think they are generally in more prominent location in this board than GPer spaces.
As far as the number of "available spaces" goes? I'm talking about IRC. Not this forum.
To your main question...no, I don't feel as if there's an attempt on the part of GPers to take away RPer space. That involves an intentional and coordinated effort that I don't believe is at play.
Instead I think it's just something that developed much like the British Empire. Through an absence of mind.
As for the specific issue of #taijitu_tavern, my understanding is that the channel is not solely designed for RPers, though I would be happily corrected on that.
The most recent channel description/topic, at least of a day ago, included the phrases "Taititu's worldbuilding, art, writing, and tabletop game discussions channel." That seems rather worldbuilding/RP centric.
Even if it is intended to be solely, or mostly, used by RPers, I also think it's a tad ridiculous to make such a big deal over who has OPs. It's making mountains out of molehills, basically.
Here's my point on Dyr. It looked bad to players who primarily RPed.
You asked if I thought there has been an effort on the part of GPers to co-opt RP spaces. I answered no. What I'm trying to do here, though, is explain how many could perceive it as such. And yes, Dyr being an OP looked bad in that regard. Ultimately? That's my point. Just to get an acknowledgement that yeah, maybe the idea to someone who has stated they have no desire to RP OP a RP room doesn't look good to some people. To get certain people to at least acknowledge the other side's perspective.
Regardless, is Dyr being OP really worth fighting a massive war over? By specifically targeting a player, you're not exactly helping tensions either.
You won't have to look far in this thread to find me bending over backwards to make it clear my position had nothing to do with Dyr personally, or my confidence in his ability to do the job of an OP.
And him being OP doesn't actually diminish from your capacity to use the channel for RP.
If someone is already predisposed to thinking that GPers are clawing away at RPer spaces? Dyr's OP status would certainly look bad. Again, I'm partially on about this to drive home the point about this looking bad from a perspective other then your own.
What would people like to see change in the region? Ask yourself that, don't answer me.
Well Guy, I'm going to answer you.
I would like to see more trust, more mutual respect, between the various niches here. Gameplayers and role players are two prominent examples, but there are smaller, overlapping groups. And there seems to be a lot of tension between those divides. Made worse by the fact that these lines aren't so clear cut.
So how do we achieve this mutual respect? This trust? Well a lot of that is self-evident. Let's take you and I, Guy. You're a GPer and I'm a RPer. Beyond that though? We also fall into two other niches. You seem very pro-defender, and I'm of an independent mindset. Well a few days back we were discussing independentism on the main #taijitu channel and you described the independent ideology to that of a vulture. I don't think I need to go deeper here to explain why I may not have taken that in a positive way.
I bring that up because I think it's a perfect illustration of what's wrong here. Many of us just see each other as the personification of a label or ideology. You didn't see me as a person explaining how I feel about the raider vs defender dynamic, Guy. You saw me as a thing representing an ideology you disagreed with, and that made it ok in your mind to treat me rudely.
We're all guilty of it to some extent. That person is a GPer. Or a RPer. Or he's just an advocate for direct democracy. Or a strong central regional government. Or a social democrat. Or a conservative. Or a libertarian. Or a socialist. And that's a problem. When someone isn't seen as a person, just a personification of a label, it's easier to brush their concerns aside. Or dismiss their point of view. Or just treat them poorly in general.
So that's what I think we need to do here. Realise that everyone is someone. Not just a label. And if we start thinking of each other as people who are greater then the niches or ideologies we subscribe to? We just might start treating each other as people too.
First, with regards to the 'vulture' comment, it was in jest. I think what seemed most ironic out of your post is that we should look past labels (a sentiment that is of course laudable, but equally at least as old as me in this game) and yet you immediately categorised me, and more importantly, my statements (as 'rude').
I labeled your comment as rude because I thought it was rude. I appreciate you clarifying that it was in jest, but at the time? I didn't take it as such.
You then also viewed the very first thing I said as condescending, when it was really aimed at diffusing tensions by taking to the extreme some of the statements here (and thus showing how they're ridiculous etc).
This whole exercise is ultimately about people failing to see things from a perspective other then their own.
And I'm no better off. My apologies for misreading your comment.
It's all good and well, and people should try to hammer out their personal differences -- not even 'for the good of the region', but for their own goods. It sucks to have a personal conflict in NS. It's not what it's for.
I've tried to do that with two players who I felt had personal issues with me. I hammered those out and was feeling pretty good about it until one of them turned around and accused me of acting like a puppet master just to spite him. That hurt. A considerable amount. When I explained that, and how I never the less felt compelled to apologize even though I hadn't intentionally done what he was accusing me of? He responded with a .gif.
I agree with the sentiment Guy. I'm just frustrated because it seems some people are hell-bent on having personal issues with me regardless of what I do.
On the non-personal matters, though, it seems (especially from your last post) that #taijitu_tavern is the main issue.
It was. Yes.
If it was indeed intended to be an RP space, I'd suggest that that be respected. If it was intended to be a general "private citizens' room", I suggest it maintain this character. If you can't agree what it is ... Have two channels, for christ's sake.
That's ultimately what's been done. #taijitu_cabana. A room for Taijitu RPers. No one will be excluded, but OP duties will rest with RPers. If any GP first poster would like to stop in to read what RPers are writing? They're entirely free to do so.
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I'm disturbed also Funkadelia, Myroria, Gulliver, and I (?) have been labelled as "GPers" and not "RPers" if I'm reading this correctly.
Eluvatar was made to RP, it is my primary RP nation, I have put god knows how much thought into what Eluvatar is like and how it fits in with the other Taijitu RP nations.
Gulliver has long been one of our key RPers. From Rykkovaa to Mor'Os.
Myrorian stories and drama have been an excellent RP medium as well, and Myroria has even been gracious enough to share his country with Oz and I for our characters to interrelate.
Funkadelia, too, has RPed. He has a carefully imagined polity and has also considered how it interrelates with others in the region and its own past.
I don't deny the RP chops of Myro, Gulliver, or yourself. I've been around long enough to know how good you guys can be in the RP realm first hand. I only exclude Funk because I have no experience RPing with him. I don't doubt that he's great at it as well.
I've also lamented plenty of times over the years that I feel Taijitu RP would be better and richer if you guys participated in it more frequently.
I understand why you don't. Between RL and GP activities? There's only so many hours in the day, and you need at least a few to sleep :P GP is important to you guys, and often takes precedence over RP. I understand that, and I get that.
I'm just saying I don't think I'm out of line to suggest that you'd quality as GPers more then RPers.
Dyr of course is actually not an RPer. However, I really don't see why this makes him an enemy to some here.
I don't either. You'll have to ask those people.
My only objection was that I felt it looked bad to have him OP a room dedicated to something he's expressly stated he has no interest in. It would be like making Oz an OP in a "Taijitu/TNP Friendship Association Room" :P
I registered a new IRC Channel. #taijitu_cabana. The goal is for it to be everything #taijitu_tavern was supposed to be. Primarily for RP and world building discussion. And in the hands of Taijitu RPers. So we have that space now.
We didn't, however, when I first raised the issue.
That turns out not to be the case.
#taijitu_tavern was primarily for RP/world building discussion. #taijitu_tavern was in the hands of Taijitu RPers: Myroria is channel founder, and several RPers are auto-OPed.
This feels not to be about including RPers, but about excluding GPers, and that is not okay.
Edit2: To clarify, I'm not saying this was deliberate.
I never wanted to exclude anyone. When this convo was about reforming #taijitu_tavern through legislation? I simply wanted people with no desire to RP removed as OPs. I never wanted Dyr excluded from the room. I was totally cool with him stopping by if he wanted to read what was being written and discussed.
It's how I plan to run #taijitu_cabana. If you'd like OP status? You can have it Elu. Gulliver too. And Myro. Anyone who has shown a commitment to Taijitu RP. All others are welcome with open arms if they'd like to see what RP and world building is about, or if they just want to read what's being written.
Edit:
The "only talk about world building when Delfos is here" joke also adds to that. Making light of the fact that RPers would actually want to talk about RP in the designated Taijitu RP room only added to that perception.
I wasn't a big fan of the joke, but I didn't understand it the way you seem to have: I understood it as "if Delfos is here, then don't talk about anything but RP" not as "only talk about RP if Delfos is here."
Either way it seems unnecessary. And didn't help the perception some RPers had of the room.
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...The second instance was Dyr's OP status. You claimed it's not sufficient Wast. I disagree.
With respect to the sufficiency comment, what I meant was that example alone would not suffice. But you provided others, so it's not an issue.
Thanks for reiterating your points - I've been out of the loop for a few days, and I completely missed the original #taijitu_tavern incident, so I have been trying to understand the issue. This has helped, and I think I get it now.
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One point that I think has not been considered properly regarding #taijitu_tavern is the distinction between primary and exclusive purpose. It was universally acknowledged at all times that the primary purpose of #taijitu_tavern was for RP chat. There were many occasions when, while no RP discussion was ongoing, it was used as a general purpose chat. I would posit that the expectation was that any such conversation, whether about RL politics or GP or whatever else one might otherwise discuss, could always be interrupted in favor of RP.
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Something which has frustrated me throughout this debate is what seems to me, rightly or wrongly, an unshakeable belief on the other side that they are in the absolute right and the "GPer" side, for lack of a better term, is in the absolute wrong.
I accept that it was wrong to use #taijitu_tavern to speak behind people's backs. I accept the feeling that RPers were being sidelined from the channel as a legitimate grievance. But these grievances, I believe, have been exaggerated and used to justify disproportionate retribution.
The use of #taijitu_tavern to talk behind people's backs had already been accepted as wrong and ended well before this started. Most if not all the people involved have already apologized.
While as an RPer myself I understand the desire for a place to chat, there had been a very long standing understanding that it was okay to talk about other things in #taijitu_tavern so long as RP talk took precedence. And until recently, there was no RP happening so there wasn't (to my knowledge) even any RP talk happening to be displaced by people not adhering to this convention.
That Dyr had OP should be a non-issue. While he may not RP, he is a trusted and active member of the community capable of being an OP. I am unaware of a single instance of him abusing this power to favor GPers over RPers in the channel, so I do not see how his having OP would have in anyway preventd or discouraged people from chatting about RP in there. His only crime, in my eyes, was being a "GPer", and this accusation is one of the reasons that his whole process has felt so exclusionary to "GPers" like myself.
The one grievance which has not been inflated that I've seen is the joke about Delfos in the channel topic. It was in poor taste, but could have easily been dealt with by asking that it be removed (assuming no such attempt was made which I am unaware of). In fact I took the step of removing it when it was pointed out at the very beginning of this debate, and perhaps I should have stated publicly that I had done so.
We have made these points repeatedly and more often than not, I feel, we have been stonewalled. We have been insulted. We have been accused unfairly of acting in malice or condescension. We have been met with tu quoque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)'s or have been given repetitions of the grievances or new grievances as a rhetorical carte blanche. Fundamentally, there seems to have been such a complete breakdown of trust that everything we did was viewed in the worst possible light and no attempt (that I'm aware of) was made to work out these issues informally before moving directly to coercive legislation.
And at the end of it all, the result is that the "RPer" side of this argument has gotten exactly what it wants in the form of #taijitu_cabana while the "GPer" side has seen two of its members driven out of the region. This is an absurdly inequitable outcome which I believe is in many ways far more damaging to the region than the the original grievances ever were. How are we supposed to find any sort of meaningful resolution to this division when half of one side is now missing? I agree with Eluvatar's sentiment that this has gone far beyond addressing "RPer" grievances and turned into attacking "GPers".
I accept guilt for taking part in and not stopping the insulting discussions in #taijitu_tavern that precipitated the breakdown in trust we are now seeing. I accept guilt for any part I had in making RPers feeling marginalized in the channel, especially since I am myself an RPer. I accept guilt for not noticing the line about Delfos in the topic and removing it sooner. I apologize profusely for all these things. We can agree to disagree for now about whether legislating IRC channels is a good or practical idea. As deeply upset as I am right now, I have no intention of holding a grudge against anyone involved in this. But I worry that no long term healing will be possible when the ratio of acknowledgement of guilt is, in my view, so grossly skewed compared to the harm done.
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Simply put, I agree about Dyr, if hes a fair person then I really don't give a shit if hes an OP
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Fundamentally, there seems to have been such a complete breakdown of trust that everything we did was viewed in the worst possible light and no attempt (that I'm aware of) was made to work out these issues informally before moving directly to coercive legislation.
As I told you privately, I did not raise the issue on a whim. Nor did I pull it out of thin air. I raised it because I have been talking to Taijitu RPers, and they voiced concerns to me that I have since raised.
You're right. Maybe a lot of this ugliness could have been avoided if they had come to you and Elu and Myro and Funk earlier. You need to ask yourself though. Why would they have been more willing to raise these concerns with someone who had been away for a year then with someone like you who has an active hand in the region? That's this breakdown in trust you mentioned. That some people, my friends here, felt they couldn't trust you guys. That raising the issues as you would have liked wouldn't get anywhere meaningful.
How are we supposed to find any sort of meaningful resolution to this division when half of one side is now missing?
Well to your credit, you are actually off to a good start...
I accept guilt for taking part in and not stopping the insulting discussions in #taijitu_tavern that precipitated the breakdown in trust we are now seeing. I accept guilt for any part I had in making RPers feeling marginalized in the channel, especially since I am myself an RPer. I accept guilt for not noticing the line about Delfos in the topic and removing it sooner. I apologize profusely for all these things. We can agree to disagree for now about whether legislating IRC channels is a good or practical idea.
As I said. People felt victimized. And more willing to open up about their concerns in private conversations then publicly.
I think this statement of yours goes a long way to fixing that. You and Elu will ALWAYS hold a position of prestige in this region, regardless of how "egalitarian" it proclaims to be. That's not a slight. Just a fact of how forum-based communities function. It means a lot to see someone in your position accept that yeah, there were people who felt wronged. And I sincerely do thank you for that.
As for how to fix that...I think letting the tavern die off is a good start. Just erase it from existence.
Following that? I know a concern raised to me in private was that the Ecclesia, despite its egalitarian nature, only seems to promote the interests of a select group of users.
I don't know how to go about fixing that...but something to show that certain ideas won't be stonewalled outright may be helpful. People need to understand they're equal partners in this democracy. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that some don't. Regardless of what the letter of the law is.
As deeply upset as I am right now, I have no intention of holding a grudge against anyone involved in this.
I do appreciate that. As I've never done anything with the malice some have accused me of having.
But...there are only so many ways I can take certain phrases. I don't want to hold grudges either. Not with you. Or anyone who has left. I'm open to trying to fix things though. Most definitely.
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Something which has frustrated me throughout this debate is what seems to me, rightly or wrongly, an unshakeable belief on the other side that they are in the absolute right and the "GPer" side, for lack of a better term, is in the absolute wrong.
I accept that it was wrong to use #taijitu_tavern to speak behind people's backs. I accept the feeling that RPers were being sidelined from the channel as a legitimate grievance. But these grievances, I believe, have been exaggerated and used to justify disproportionate retribution.
The use of #taijitu_tavern to talk behind people's backs had already been accepted as wrong and ended well before this started. Most if not all the people involved have already apologized.
While as an RPer myself I understand the desire for a place to chat, there had been a very long standing understanding that it was okay to talk about other things in #taijitu_tavern so long as RP talk took precedence. And until recently, there was no RP happening so there wasn't (to my knowledge) even any RP talk happening to be displaced by people not adhering to this convention.
That Dyr had OP should be a non-issue. While he may not RP, he is a trusted and active member of the community capable of being an OP. I am unaware of a single instance of him abusing this power to favor GPers over RPers in the channel, so I do not see how his having OP would have in anyway preventd or discouraged people from chatting about RP in there. His only crime, in my eyes, was being a "GPer", and this accusation is one of the reasons that his whole process has felt so exclusionary to "GPers" like myself.
The one grievance which has not been inflated that I've seen is the joke about Delfos in the channel topic. It was in poor taste, but could have easily been dealt with by asking that it be removed (assuming no such attempt was made which I am unaware of). In fact I took the step of removing it when it was pointed out at the very beginning of this debate, and perhaps I should have stated publicly that I had done so.
We have made these points repeatedly and more often than not, I feel, we have been stonewalled. We have been insulted. We have been accused unfairly of acting in malice or condescension. We have been met with tu quoque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)'s or have been given repetitions of the grievances or new grievances as a rhetorical carte blanche. Fundamentally, there seems to have been such a complete breakdown of trust that everything we did was viewed in the worst possible light and no attempt (that I'm aware of) was made to work out these issues informally before moving directly to coercive legislation.
And at the end of it all, the result is that the "RPer" side of this argument has gotten exactly what it wants in the form of #taijitu_cabana while the "GPer" side has seen two of its members driven out of the region. This is an absurdly inequitable outcome which I believe is in many ways far more damaging to the region than the the original grievances ever were. How are we supposed to find any sort of meaningful resolution to this division when half of one side is now missing? I agree with Eluvatar's sentiment that this has gone far beyond addressing "RPer" grievances and turned into attacking "GPers".
I accept guilt for taking part in and not stopping the insulting discussions in #taijitu_tavern that precipitated the breakdown in trust we are now seeing. I accept guilt for any part I had in making RPers feeling marginalized in the channel, especially since I am myself an RPer. I accept guilt for not noticing the line about Delfos in the topic and removing it sooner. I apologize profusely for all these things. We can agree to disagree for now about whether legislating IRC channels is a good or practical idea. As deeply upset as I am right now, I have no intention of holding a grudge against anyone involved in this. But I worry that no long term healing will be possible when the ratio of acknowledgement of guilt is, in my view, so grossly skewed compared to the harm done.
Ok, it should be noted that anyone I've gone off on here has been because of their behaviour, not because of any RP or GP affiliation. I frankly don't give a shit. I've done both, and may continue to do so in the future.
The entire reason Prydania put this up for discussion is because he (and some of the rest of us) felt it would be nice if we could have an RP discussion room, for the actual RP'ers.. and be safe knowing that it wouldn't turn into some kind of stupid petty gossip fest like what we heard happened. He set about doing this by starting this discussion with no malice implied or intended in hopes of reaching that end.
What resulted from this flawed belief in "cooler heads will prevail" has been little more than shit slinging, whining, and outright pettiness. Even now, as people here continue to bemoan transgressions both real and imagined the topic has been rendered redundant as a new room has been made for this purpose and will be moderated heavily to ensure it remains as it should be.
Frankly, I don't give two shits about who did what to whom in the past. It's done. It's over. Let's move on. What I do care about is the ease with which this hostility surfaces in these threads. I do not view this for a moment as GP vs RP. I view this as "What the flying fuck has everyone been smoking?! Why the hell is everyone acting like this?!".
As for Funk and Myro being "driven" out. I don't see how that was the case, they made a choice. They're adults and can think for themselves. So far as I am aware, no one said "Hey, lets make these guys leave". You're making it sound as if it were an objective or some kind of witch hunt. From where I sit, its not. I've engaged in GP aspects off and on for years, Pry has too (usually when I drug him into it.. but still).
The only thing that we want is for people to get along, work together, and be able to do simple things like... oh, you know... have a civil discourse without people having meltdowns or trolling each other. That's it. I promise! Like.. even as I type this.. my eye is twitching because for the life of me I can not fathom how the flying buttered fucknutted hell we got here!
This is serving no purpose. The trolling, the blame throwing, the passive agressive BS, the chips on the shoulder... none of it.
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It may be helpful to review (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/let%27s-deal-with-the-inactivity!/) some (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/what-is-taijitu/) context (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/a-series-of-concerns/).
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If you're going to post that much context, a little explanation is warranted.
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The negativity did not explode out of nowhere. Over the last two months, Funkadelia and Myroria have felt increasingly put upon, starting I think with this page (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/let%27s-deal-with-the-inactivity!/15/) in which St Oz said "4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there" and there was much applause, albeit mostly focused on his 3rd point against blaming leaders for inactivity.
People have felt hostility and isolation. It's not good.
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The negativity did not explode out of nowhere. Over the last two months, Funkadelia and Myroria have felt increasingly put upon, starting I think with this page (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/let%27s-deal-with-the-inactivity!/15/) in which St Oz said "4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there" and there was much applause, albeit mostly focused on his 3rd point against blaming leaders for inactivity.
People have felt hostility and isolation. It's not good.
That's an eye opener. I know that a lot of people I've spoken to feel similar. And feel as if Myro and Funk were part of (but certainly not the totality of) an informal system that was hindering their ability to truly be equal partners in this egalitarian democracy. That's what I mean when I say people have felt victimized. They've felt as if they've been put down upon themselves, in part by the actions of Myro and Funk, and it's festered until now.
I wish I could be less vague but understand. This is stuff that I've been told in private communication. So revealing specifics of who has said what is a bit of an issue. I'm unsure who is comfortable having what they've said shared. Much less being tied to it.
There's also a problem with escalating factionalism. And I say that as someone who has been complacent in it. SD posted in the "what is Taijitu thread" upon his return. Funk responded, basically claiming his post was full of nothing but "feel good platitudes."
http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/what-is-taijitu/msg161738/#msg161738
SD defended himself. And Funk responded that it was "unsurprising" that SD ignored what Funk saw as his main point.
http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/what-is-taijitu/msg161747/#msg161747
Now here's the thing. I've heard a lot from Funk's friends tell me "my friend is hurt" or "my friend is gone." And I sympathize. Understand though. Your circle is not the only tight-knit circle here. There are people who consider themselves friends beyond your sphere. SD and I are as close as Guilliver and Funk, perhaps closer (I only say that as I'm not sure how close Gulliver and Funk are. I know I consider SD my best friend). And if I see someone ridicule my friend for simply trying to be helpful? I'm going to defend him.
Here's what I find interesting. Funk's friends have said to me "oh I think he's burnt out" and "he's dealing with a lot from a lot of people."
Ok. I understand that. SD though? He was involved in none of that. Funk had no right treating SD as poorly as he did, and I took issue with that.
And I know that's ultimately not helpful. I've said as much. That this factionalism only made things worse. And yet what do you want me to do? Not stand up for my friends out of a sense of civility? Why can't I ask the same for others on the "other" side of the "aisle"? And why is it that so many of my friends would rather lament about the system to me in private then address the issues that bothered them in more constructive forms earlier?
I can think of only one answer to that. The total lack of trust Gulliver mentioned earlier. I'm sorry Gulliver, Elu. For the IRC queries. Those were my way of trying to reach out. To talk "beyond" the forum and hoping to arrive at some sort of understanding that could make things better here. To impart some idea of what "my side" was feeling to help foster some trust. Obviously? It didn't work.
I agree. The negativity did not explode out of nowhere. Myro and Funk felt unappreciated. Others felt victimized and put down upon. That there was a failure to have these two sides come together and hash issues out before they got as bad as they got is...sad.
I wish I had answers that went beyond "platitudes" and "sentiments as old as the game itself." At this point though? What more is there to say beyond "try to understand the other side's perspective" and "treat people as people and not as labels"?
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When I said "People have felt hostility and isolation," I did not refer exclusively to Myroria and Funkadelia, but to everyone who's felt put upon, on both 'sides' to the extent we have them.
In the exchange you linked to, I suspect Funkadelia felt condescended to. Not going to argue his response wasn't also readable as condescending.
I can think of only one answer to that. The total lack of trust Gulliver mentioned earlier. I'm sorry Gulliver, Elu. For the IRC queries. Those were my way of trying to reach out. To talk "beyond" the forum and hoping to arrive at some sort of understanding that could make things better here. To impart some idea of what "my side" was feeling to help foster some trust. Obviously? It didn't work.
I'm sorry I don't think I quite understand.
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When I said "People have felt hostility and isolation," I did not refer exclusively to Myroria and Funkadelia, but to everyone who's felt put upon, on both 'sides' to the extent we have them.
Noted.
In the exchange you linked to, I suspect Funkadelia felt condescended to. Not going to argue his response wasn't also readable as condescending.
The portion of the exchange I linked to started with SD giving his two cents. Funk responded, without provocation, and reduced SD's position to "feel-good platitudes." How was that constructive?
I bring this up because in conversations I've heard people say "my friends have been called such-and-such."
And I'm just saying that this isn't a case of one side picking on the other. And by no means am I declaring myself innocent. I believe the links I've posted are as condemning to me as they are to Funk.
I can think of only one answer to that. The total lack of trust Gulliver mentioned earlier. I'm sorry Gulliver, Elu. For the IRC queries. Those were my way of trying to reach out. To talk "beyond" the forum and hoping to arrive at some sort of understanding that could make things better here. To impart some idea of what "my side" was feeling to help foster some trust. Obviously? It didn't work.
I'm sorry I don't think I quite understand.
That attempts on my end to reach out to Gulliver and yourself on my part via IRC were done to try and "bridge the divide."
Sorry it didn't work.
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Okay. I thought you might be saying you were sorry for trying, but that didn't seem to make much sense.
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Nah, I'm never sorry for trying :)