Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Myroria on March 16, 2015, 05:02:43 AM
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Citizen-legislators of the Ecclesia,
Today the Taijitu Citizens’ Militia, in conjunction with the Grey Wardens (an organization dedicated to offensive operations against invader and imperialist organizations) invaded the region of Madrigal (http://www.nationstates.net/region=madrigal). This invasion, in the opinion of the leadership of the Militia as well as the authors of “On Regional Sovereignty”, is in line with Sovereigntist policy - namely, that regions that violate other regions’ sovereignty are liable to invasion themselves.
Madrigal is a region founded by, and for, invaders. It has conducted numerous operations designed to violate the sovereignty of innocent regions. The Militia has previously proactively opposed its founder’s other invader group, the Association of Imperialism. Its founder, however, died four days ago. When the Grey Wardens, including our own Citizen Cormac, asked the Taijitu Militia for assistance in giving this region a taste of its own medicine, Corporal Eluvatar and Lancepesade Pauline Bonaparte were happy to oblige, with Citizen-Sergeant Funkadelia’s permission.
In order to make this operation meaningful, though, we must hold onto this region long enough to show that we mean business. The Militia, therefore, asks the Ecclesia to authorize an occupation of Madrigal lasting at least one week but no longer than a month.
We move for a vote immediately, but of course will take questions at this time.
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I second the motion for a vote.
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I divide it by three.
I mean, I third it.
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do they wear gray cloaks?
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Can they sense the taint?
I would be willing to vote in favor of this.
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I suppose I'll be the only one voting Against >_>
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wonders what the cit-sarge does
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Due to the time sensitive nature of deployment authorizations, this has gone to vote here (http://forum.taijitu.org/legislative-and-treaty-votes/deployment-in-madrigal/).
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wonders what the cit-sarge does
Sorry if I'm not around to spam the forums as much as you are.
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wonders what the cit-sarge does
I'm sorry, what?
If you have a criticism to make of the Citizen-Sergeant please make it, don't just snipe passively in this manner.
Regardless. The Citizen-Sergeant was entirely available to operational planners, fully informed of the nature of the operation, fully comprehended it, and authorized it. Yes he was not available to personally lead it. That happens. The operation could not be postponed, it happened at a time determined by NS Moderation deleting the founder, not by the planners.
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wonders what the cit-sarge does
/me wonders if the sans-culottes is more concerned with following orders or getting 300 endos in The North Pacific
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/me wonders if the sans-culottes is more concerned with following orders or getting 300 endos in The North Pacific
/me wonders if this doesn't imply subordinance and titles just like what we want to abolish.
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/me wonders if the sans-culottes is more concerned with following orders or getting 300 endos in The North Pacific
/me wonders if this doesn't imply subordinance and titles just like what we want to abolish.
/me wonders if we should continue talking in passive aggressive third person.
I also wonder if it's unusual to expect someone in TaiMil to actually want to deploy with TaiMil rather than endo-tarting in a Feeder, or to make reference to that when said person decides to call someone else out for not doing enough.
#thingstoponder
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/me wonders if the sans-culottes is more concerned with following orders or getting 300 endos in The North Pacific
/me wonders if this doesn't imply subordinance and titles just like what we want to abolish.
/me wonders if we should continue talking in passive aggressive third person.
I also wonder if it's unusual to expect someone in TaiMil to actually want to deploy with TaiMil rather than endo-tarting in a Feeder, or to make reference to that when said person decides to call someone else out for not doing enough.
#thingstoponder
/me wonders what does this have to do with Madrigal, why the use of hashtag and why turning from passive aggressive third person to passive aggressive first person is any better.
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/me wonders if the sans-culottes is more concerned with following orders or getting 300 endos in The North Pacific
/me wonders if this doesn't imply subordinance and titles just like what we want to abolish.
/me wonders if we should continue talking in passive aggressive third person.
I also wonder if it's unusual to expect someone in TaiMil to actually want to deploy with TaiMil rather than endo-tarting in a Feeder, or to make reference to that when said person decides to call someone else out for not doing enough.
#thingstoponder
/me wonders what does this have to do with Madrigal, why the use of hashtag and why turning from passive aggressive third person to passive aggressive first person is any better.
/me wishes we could all get along like we used to in middle school.
/me wishes he could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy.
You're right, none of this has anything to do with Madrigal and is getting both increasingly off-topic and increasingly nasty. Everyone please cool it and return to discussing the current deployment; personal grievances can be taken to PM, query, or the guillotine.
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I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing. I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal. But I digress and wait for new leadership.
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I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing. I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal. But I digress and wait for new leadership.
Your belief that the operation is illegal is entirely germane to this thread.
Please, do go on. Why do you think the operation is or was illegal?
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I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing. I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal. But I digress and wait for new leadership.
(http://i.imgur.com/Gyb9UOo.png)
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I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing. I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal. But I digress and wait for new leadership.
I... what?
I'm trying to wrap my head around how exactly Funkadelia does nothing, when I frequently witness him doing things, as well as how this was illegal when there is currently no law against any type of military operation, provided the Citizen-Sergeant authorizes it and, if it's longer than the mandated time period, the Ecclesia authorizes it. The Ecclesia is in the process of either authorizing it or not, right now. The law has been followed without incident.
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I don't do anything as the leader of the militia does nothing. I, personally, find recent actions by our militia to be illegal. But I digress and wait for new leadership.
Your belief that the operation is illegal is entirely germane to this thread.
Please, do go on. Why do you think the operation is or was illegal?
How about here? (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/legality-of-military-actions-conducted-without-citizen-sergeant/)
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Edit: Maybe this should have been in a different thread.
Bustos has a legitimate point that is worth examining formally. The thread linked is not really relevant to the question (the Sergeant did turn out to be involved) but we don't have to worry about the grievance being moot here.
Out of compulsive habit, I'll try to organize this (hopefully I have Bustos' argument right):
Legal question: Does the militia act allow for anyone other than the Citizen-Sergeant to order military actions?
The relevant part of the law (important lines bolded):
[...]
II.The Militia shall be led by a Citizen-Sergeant.- The Citizen-Sergeant shall be elected by the Ecclesia to a four month term.
- The Citizen-Sergeant may be removed from office by a majority vote of the Ecclesia.
- The Citizen-Sergeant shall lead the Militia strategically, and shall act as military advisor to the Ecclesia.
III. Militia shall be organized.- The Citizen-Sergeant shall delineate rank and responsibility within the Militia.
IV. The Militia shall be supervised by the Ecclesia.- The citizen-sergeant shall be able to order military actions, and the Militia shall respond to treaty obligations.
- All military occupations lasting longer than three major in-game updates must be approved by the Ecclesia by a two-thirds majority vote.
[...]
Before going on, I'll note (Eluvatar can correct me here) that I'm fairly sure the act was intended to allow for some latitude in decision making if the Sergeant felt the need to delegate authority, since some actions are time sensitive and we can't realistically expect someone to be around all the time. From a practical standpoint, this means the picky legal arguments might be best avoided by just clarifying what was meant and accepting that it wasn't clear in the first place (spirit of the law, etc.). But let's proceed anyway, in excruciating detail:
- First, the law states that the sergeant shall be able to order military actions, and that the Sergeant shall lead the militia. Neither specifies exclusivity, although it does say that the Sergeant will act as military advisor, which I suppose is exclusive (but not relevant). At this point, we need to determine whether the ability to order military actions is implicitly given to anyone else.
There is only one line to this effect, which says the sergeant shall "delineate rank and responsibility within the Militia." The Citizen-Sergeant, by the act, is a member of the Militia. Hence the question is whether the Sergeant can empower a member of the militia with the Sergeant's explicitly defined power to order operations.
- The Sergeant is an elected official, and implicit in that is the notion that the powers defined within the law are granted specifically to the elected individual for the usual reasons (accountability, trust in their competence, and so on). In most of our other laws, delegation refers to appointment of individuals (Citizen-liaisons, etc.) that 'assist' the elected official with tasks, not effectively assume the position.
- So the issue here is about who acts in the absence of the elected official to execute the powers normally given to them. A core principle of our government is that the Ecclesia will respond to exceptional cases when they arise, thereby obviating the need to explicitly specify all the annoying details that normally bloat legislation. In particular, if a position should go vacant because someone goes missing, the Ecclesia will respond to fill it. The Sergeant's position is special, however, because actions can be time sensitive and the Ecclesia is a relatively slow moving, deliberative body (this is clear from the way the law is worded, e.g. section IV and also the discussion on the law prior to its passage).
- My opinion on this: I think that if we accept the premise that 'acting' leaders are to be selected by the Ecclesia on a case by case basis (which is suggested by the omission of such provisions in our existing laws), then the law should be interpreted to allow the Sergeant to delegate any of his/her powers to someone else at short notice, which includes ordering operations. If there is an abuse of power, the Ecclesia can deal with it.
I reaaaallly shouldn't post this late.
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I declare this operation was a success, proof of that is the TaiMil aftermath. We're more united on our sovereigntist cause and we actually used GP to piss off people, even if that included Eluvatar.
:keke:
:drunks: :wine: :drunk: :congrats:
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I even joined in for the first time ever.