Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Gulliver on December 02, 2015, 11:07:51 PM
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While it is clear that many people would like to see changes, there has been very little concrete proposals and discussions. I hope that thread will change this and get us moving forward again.
If you have a proposal for reform, post it in this thread. You and others may then discuss such proposals.
If a proposal or related set of proposals generate enough talk, I will open a new thread for it with an accompanying poll for possible options. Debate specific to that topic will continue there, while the poll will be used as a concrete measure of what option has the broadest support.
You will be able to change your vote in these polls, and as the debate progresses it may change if people propose substantially new options. I will post if a new option is added, so remember to check. You might also just change your opinion as the debate progresses.
Hopefully, we can synthesize the results of these individual polls and debates into a final proposal that is largely acceptable.
If you think this plan of attack needs to be tweaked, let me know.
To get us started, I would like to make a proposals of my own.
I believe our multiple domestic offices (editor, dean, liaison) should be combined into a single elected office with appointed deputies, or whatever you want to call them.
This I'm less sure of, but I think it warrants debate. Currently we have two offices which deal with in-game matters, the Citizen-Delegate for diplomacy and the Citizen-Sergeant for military affairs. We could combine these into a single, foreign affairs/gamplay office.
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Don't we already have the Constitutional Convention thread? Or is this a more general-purpose board?
Perhaps we could use this thread to spitball ideas, and the Convention thread to actually pen the winning ideas into the new Constitution? Sound good with you guys? :)
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Don't we already have the Constitutional Convention thread? Or is this a more general-purpose board?
Perhaps we could use this thread to spitball ideas, and the Convention thread to actually pen the winning ideas into the new Constitution? Sound good with you guys? :)
That's basically what Gulliver is saying.
Fighting a bloody toothache right now. Will introduce some ideas when I feel better. Be it in a few hours or in the next day or so.
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I would like to see a triumvirate of sorts. Split the executive into three offices.
The Delegate would serve as the head of state and primarily deal with foreign affairs.
A Minister of Internal Affairs (or whatever we want to call it) would deal with recruitment and cultural issues. This would be close to what Gulliver is saying, as this post oversee the duties currently overseen by the editor, liaison, and dean. As well as oversee recruitment and propaganda.
A Minister of Defence (or whatever we want to call it) would deal with the military.
All would be elected by popular vote.
Now here's where I would put the much-discussed "guild" system. Though I don't think that should be the term we use if it's adopted. It has a different sort of connotation. I prefer "committee system" myself.
Each of the three elected officials would have the ability to appoint deputies to aid them in whatever way the officers deemed necessary. These deputies could, in turn, request that they be given a "sub deputy" themselves to help them out. This would create a sort of "fluid cabinet." No two MoIA, for example, would have the same "committee" layout. A MoIA who is strong in the field of recruitment but weak when it comes to propaganda would have a different committee layout then a MoIA who has the opposite strengths and weaknesses.
It would also provide training of sorts. People could be introduced to the field they're interested in at the sub-deputy level and work their way up to becoming a deputy. Which could prepare them for a run at the office in question themselves. This also adds a gameplay mechanic. Players (citizens) now have clear "career" paths open to them in the region. Something to progress to.
It's in that spirit that I propose one last thing. A return to the original Taijitu Senate model. Gulliver has described it as a direct democratic system. I have described it as a representative democratic system. Which tells me it's the ideal compromise between the two camps :)
The Senate (or Ecclesia, Parliament, Grand Council of Water Buffaloes, whatever we end up calling it) would be open to all citizens of Taijitu. Yet being a citizen wouldn't make you a senator automatically. The Senate would interview citizens applying to it and vote in private to determine whether or not that person's application has been accepted.
The interview process is multi-layered.
At first glance it again provides a gameplay function. Advancement. Citizens looking to engage politically would see the application as a means for advancing themselves in a gameplay sense.
It's also a bit of fun. Those who remember that system know that the questionnaire all applicants needed to fill out was a mix of serious questions with some fun stuff thrown in. It was lighthearted, and a means to get to know a new applicant.
It could also be used to run security checks on applicants to ensure that the applicant isn't someone looking to undermine the region.
Players, ideally, wouldn't be denied unless the security check turned something up or their application made it abundantly clear they had no idea what they were doing. It's a system that I honestly feel embodies the best of both the representative and direct democratic models.
The only question is who forms the first "Senate" should the system be adopted? I would say that everyone who helps draft the new reforms (be they in the form of amendments to the current constitution, new legislation, or a new constitution all together) should be offered a seat in the new legislative body. People would be free to turn them down if they wanted, but those that don't would form the first session of the Ecclesia/Senate/whatever under the new system.
Anyone after all that would apply as per the process.
On the courts...I think having a separate court system is too layered, especially for a region of our size. I would propose that the legislator serve as "supreme court" should the need arise.
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I would like to see a triumvirate of sorts. Split the executive into three offices.
The Delegate would serve as the head of state and primarily deal with foreign affairs.
A Minister of Internal Affairs (or whatever we want to call it) would deal with recruitment and cultural issues. This would be close to what Gulliver is saying, as this post oversee the duties currently overseen by the editor, liaison, and dean. As well as oversee recruitment and propaganda.
A Minister of Defence (or whatever we want to call it) would deal with the military.
All would be elected by popular vote.
Now here's where I would put the much-discussed "guild" system. Though I don't think that should be the term we use if it's adopted. It has a different sort of connotation. I prefer "committee system" myself.
Each of the three elected officials would have the ability to appoint deputies to aid them in whatever way the officers deemed necessary. These deputies could, in turn, request that they be given a "sub deputy" themselves to help them out. This would create a sort of "fluid cabinet." No two MoIA, for example, would have the same "committee" layout. A MoIA who is strong in the field of recruitment but weak when it comes to propaganda would have a different committee layout then a MoIA who has the opposite strengths and weaknesses.
It would also provide training of sorts. People could be introduced to the field they're interested in at the sub-deputy level and work their way up to becoming a deputy. Which could prepare them for a run at the office in question themselves. This also adds a gameplay mechanic. Players (citizens) now have clear "career" paths open to them in the region. Something to progress to.
It's in that spirit that I propose one last thing. A return to the original Taijitu Senate model. Gulliver has described it as a direct democratic system. I have described it as a representative democratic system. Which tells me it's the ideal compromise between the two camps :)
The Senate (or Ecclesia, Parliament, Grand Council of Water Buffaloes, whatever we end up calling it) would be open to all citizens of Taijitu. Yet being a citizen wouldn't make you a senator automatically. The Senate would interview citizens applying to it and vote in private to determine whether or not that person's application has been accepted.
The interview process is multi-layered.
At first glance it again provides a gameplay function. Advancement. Citizens looking to engage politically would see the application as a means for advancing themselves in a gameplay sense.
It's also a bit of fun. Those who remember that system know that the questionnaire all applicants needed to fill out was a mix of serious questions with some fun stuff thrown in. It was lighthearted, and a means to get to know a new applicant.
It could also be used to run security checks on applicants to ensure that the applicant isn't someone looking to undermine the region.
Players, ideally, wouldn't be denied unless the security check turned something up or their application made it abundantly clear they had no idea what they were doing. It's a system that I honestly feel embodies the best of both the representative and direct democratic models.
The only question is who forms the first "Senate" should the system be adopted? I would say that everyone who helps draft the new reforms (be they in the form of amendments to the current constitution, new legislation, or a new constitution all together) should be offered a seat in the new legislative body. People would be free to turn them down if they wanted, but those that don't would form the first session of the Ecclesia/Senate/whatever under the new system.
Anyone after all that would apply as per the process.
On the courts...I think having a separate court system is too layered, especially for a region of our size. I would propose that the legislator serve as "supreme court" should the need arise.
This sums up pretty much all I had been thinking for a new system. I'm glad our discussions have yielded this.
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So, there are good ideas here, and some that I may not agree with. Here's what I think.
We should adopt a Guild system (or committee system) for certain fields, such as military, gameplay, community, statistics, accounting, worldbuilding, etc. However, the way we get people in the committees is the exact same way we got people into the old Senate: through admitting applications. This makes the committees themselves more fluid and open for anyone, and takes care of any possible corruption of appointing people.
The committees, by default, are laid in a cooperative, horizontal model where actions are made through bringing any idea to a vote. Again, this removes corruption. To help with introducing people to any committee, for the first month after someone is appointed to a new committee, they are in a "Member in Training" or "MiT" position. In the MiT position, one member of the guild trains the new member on how the committee works, the culture, the technology, etc. They can influence decision, but they cannot make a vote until they become full members.
Speaking of training, one of the guilds would certainly be of Mentors. They would work in a fashion similar to what Orri proposed, with Mentors giving all new citizens a forum PM to schedule an IRC meeting to walk the new user through the forums and community.
Perhaps the most important committee of all is the applications committee. Members of that committee would be the ones to accept, deny, or request more information from any applicant. To be a member of this committee, you must have served on any other committee relating to some form of domestic politics first.
One notable aspect of the applications committee is electing a head Judge. The Judge would be leading the applications guild, reviewing some domestic politics, and would act as a de facto Head of Government. The judge can appoint anyone temporarily or permanently to help for any domestic reason.
Another important guild would be the relations guild, which focuses on NS gameplay. They would elect the Delegate, and he or she could also appoint anyone for any foreign politics reason.
A "career path" still exists in this system, as a general rule of thumb would be to become a citizen, join a committee, join the applications or relations committee, become an appointee of the Delegate or Judge, and become the Delegate or Judge themselves.
The Ecclesia/Senate/Congress/whatever would either be completely direct (everyone is automatically in), but as Taijitu grows larger, maybe a better system will eventually be to have anyone in a committee automatically put into the legislature.
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I agree with the sentiments of Prydania and Khem.
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I agree with the sentiments of Prydania and Khem.
Great! Our proposals seem to only have minor differences, so it appears we have come to a semi-consensus! :D
Shall we begin constitutional drafting?
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Yes, I could start framing such into a legal form tomorrow.
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I would like to see a triumvirate of sorts. Split the executive into three offices.
The Delegate would serve as the head of state and primarily deal with foreign affairs.
A Minister of Internal Affairs (or whatever we want to call it) would deal with recruitment and cultural issues. This would be close to what Gulliver is saying, as this post oversee the duties currently overseen by the editor, liaison, and dean. As well as oversee recruitment and propaganda.
A Minister of Defence (or whatever we want to call it) would deal with the military.
All would be elected by popular vote.
Now here's where I would put the much-discussed "guild" system. Though I don't think that should be the term we use if it's adopted. It has a different sort of connotation. I prefer "committee system" myself.
Each of the three elected officials would have the ability to appoint deputies to aid them in whatever way the officers deemed necessary. These deputies could, in turn, request that they be given a "sub deputy" themselves to help them out. This would create a sort of "fluid cabinet." No two MoIA, for example, would have the same "committee" layout. A MoIA who is strong in the field of recruitment but weak when it comes to propaganda would have a different committee layout then a MoIA who has the opposite strengths and weaknesses.
It would also provide training of sorts. People could be introduced to the field they're interested in at the sub-deputy level and work their way up to becoming a deputy. Which could prepare them for a run at the office in question themselves. This also adds a gameplay mechanic. Players (citizens) now have clear "career" paths open to them in the region. Something to progress to.
This sounds like what we already have, albeit it with less offices, a poly-personal executive with appointed sub-officers. Were there any other key differences you had in mind?
It's in that spirit that I propose one last thing. A return to the original Taijitu Senate model.
I prefer the current model. It's simple and too the point. Reintroducing interviews seems like just an additional barrier that's makework.
The Senate (or Ecclesia, Parliament, Grand Council of Water Buffaloes, whatever we end up calling it)
I would strongly prefer that we retain the name "Ecclesia". It is a unique, distinctly Taijituan name, whereas there are about 500 other senates floating around NationStates.
The only question is who forms the first "Senate" should the system be adopted? I would say that everyone who helps draft the new reforms (be they in the form of amendments to the current constitution, new legislation, or a new constitution all together) should be offered a seat in the new legislative body. People would be free to turn them down if they wanted, but those that don't would form the first session of the Ecclesia/Senate/whatever under the new system.
I think a simpler solution would be to just not dissolve the Ecclesia, even if it's reformed, so that the old membership just automatically carries over.
On the courts...I think having a separate court system is too layered, especially for a region of our size. I would propose that the legislator serve as "supreme court" should the need arise.
I don't think we need a formal criminal court just yet, but some mechanism for interpreting the law and constitution will probably be useful.
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Okay so far from complete but just what I have written thus far to keep y'all in the loop. How do you feel about the structure of blank areas?
1. Executive.
1.1. The executive will consist of a triumvirate, with authority balanced between the three offices.
1.2. The Triumvirate will consist of three regional officers. Delegate, Domestic and Military.
1.3.The office of Delegate will act as head of state, dealing with diplomacy, embassies, treaties and general foreign affairs.
1.4. The office of Domestic will act as head of the cultural offices, dealing with recruitment, cultural events, community integration, newspaper, college and general internal affairs.
1.5. The office of Military will act as the head of military operations, dealing with military things, policy, ranks, other things.
2. Responsibilities and powers of the executive.
3. Election methodology.
4. Committee Structure
4.1. Deputies of Executive heading committees.
4.2. Each establishing unique structure.
4.3. Deputies shall open each committee membership to all Citizens. Allowing for an egalitarian or lateral structure as dictated by the appointed Deputy.
4.4. self determination.
5. Legislative
5.1. Liquid Democratic Model
6. Criminal Code/Judiciary
6.1. Don’t be a dick.
6.2. Follow the TOS.
6.3. Don’t work against your friends bro.
6.4. In event of a trial, the executive should act as judges.
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Okay so far from complete but just what I have written thus far to keep y'all in the loop. How do you feel about the structure of blank areas?
1. Executive.
1.1. The executive will consist of a triumvirate, with authority balanced between the three offices.
1.2. The Triumvirate will consist of three regional officers. Delegate, Domestic and Military.
1.3.The office of Delegate will act as head of state, dealing with diplomacy, embassies, treaties and general foreign affairs.
1.4. The office of Domestic will act as head of the cultural offices, dealing with recruitment, cultural events, community integration, newspaper, college and general internal affairs.
1.5. The office of Military will act as the head of military operations, dealing with military things, policy, ranks, other things.
2. Responsibilities and powers of the executive.
3. Election methodology.
4. Committee Structure
4.1. Deputies of Executive heading committees.
4.2. Each establishing unique structure.
4.3. Deputies shall open each committee membership to all Citizens. Allowing for an egalitarian or lateral structure as dictated by the appointed Deputy.
4.4. self determination.
5. Legislative
5.1. Liquid Democratic Model
6. Criminal Code/Judiciary
6.1. Don’t be a dick.
6.2. Follow the TOS.
6.3. Don’t work against your friends bro.
6.4. In event of a trial, the executive should act as judges.
Please post constitutional drafts in the constitutional convention thread here (http://forum.taijitu.org/proposals-and-discussions/taijitu-constitutional-convention/). :)
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It's in that spirit that I propose one last thing. A return to the original Taijitu Senate model. Gulliver has described it as a direct democratic system.
If I remember correctly, the old model basically accepted all who applied anyway. The current system, skips that step.
1. Executive.
1.1. The executive will consist of a triumvirate, with authority balanced between the three offices.
1.2. The Triumvirate will consist of three regional officers. Delegate, Domestic and Military.
1.3.The office of Delegate will act as head of state, dealing with diplomacy, embassies, treaties and general foreign affairs.
1.4. The office of Domestic will act as head of the cultural offices, dealing with recruitment, cultural events, community integration, newspaper, college and general internal affairs.
1.5. The office of Military will act as the head of military operations, dealing with military things, policy, ranks, other things.
2. Responsibilities and powers of the executive.
3. Election methodology.
4. Committee Structure
4.1. Deputies of Executive heading committees.
4.2. Each establishing unique structure.
4.3. Deputies shall open each committee membership to all Citizens. Allowing for an egalitarian or lateral structure as dictated by the appointed Deputy.
4.4. self determination.
5. Legislative
5.1. Liquid Democratic Model
6. Criminal Code/Judiciary
6.1. Don’t be a dick.
6.2. Follow the TOS.
6.3. Don’t work against your friends bro.
6.4. In event of a trial, the executive should act as judges.
What if a member(s) of the executive is on trial? 3 executives, one on trial makes 2 available, and if they tie, etc? Just a thought.
Will this abolish all other officer positions?
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I agree with Gulliver that we should keep the name Ecclesia.
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Names are, ultimately, window dressing.
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This sounds like what we already have, albeit it with less offices, a poly-personal executive with appointed sub-officers. Were there any other key differences you had in mind?
So it's the same, save for all the ways it's different? :P
Ultimately I think a balance needs to be struck between a symbolic executive and an all-powerful dictator.
The system I'm proposing would elevate the three executives above "figurehead" or "caretaker" status, but would spread the power out over three people rather than a single person.
It's in that spirit that I propose one last thing. A return to the original Taijitu Senate model.
I prefer the current model. It's simple and too the point. Reintroducing interviews seems like just an additional barrier that's makework.
If I remember correctly, the old model basically accepted all who applied anyway. The current system, skips that step.
What you call makework I call a gameplay feature. Players (ie citizens) need to feel a sense of progression should they opt to engage in regional politics. The application method allowed for that sense of progression.
Which is the problem with a system that's "too [sic] the point." You arrive in Taijitu and apply for citizenship. Congratulations. You're in the legislature. It's akin to buying World of Warcraft, logging in as soon as it's installed, and getting a max level character with raid-tier gear. Where's the sense of progress? What is there to work for?
I would strongly prefer that we retain the name "Ecclesia". It is a unique, distinctly Taijituan name, whereas there are about 500 other senates floating around NationStates.
I have no preference on names. Ecclesia, Senate, Congress, Parliament, Conclave...I'm fine with anything. I'm just using the term "Senate" because it's the first Tai Senate system that I'm advocating for.
I think a simpler solution would be to just not dissolve the Ecclesia, even if it's reformed, so that the old membership just automatically carries over.
What proposals for Ecclesia reform would you suggest?
It just seems like you're saying "thanks for your ideas, but could we just not change anything?" I'm not saying my ideas are the be-all-end-all, but some back and forth would be appreciated. Rather than appeals to the status quo.
On the courts...I think having a separate court system is too layered, especially for a region of our size. I would propose that the legislator serve as "supreme court" should the need arise.
I don't think we need a formal criminal court just yet, but some mechanism for interpreting the law and constitution will probably be useful.
I'm in favour of empowering the legislature to act as the region's court. Perhaps the legislature could elect a "chief justice" from among their ranks if a trial is necessary?
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What proposals for Ecclesia reform would you suggest?
It just seems like you're saying "thanks for your ideas, but could we just not change anything?" I'm not saying my ideas are the be-all-end-all, but some back and forth would be appreciated. Rather than appeals to the status quo.
Personally, I'm fine with it the way it is. What I meant to say is that if others would like there to be changes, it would be better to accomplish those changes by modifying the current body instead of dissolving it and making a new one. In particular, you seem to want to readopt the old Taijituan Senate model of legislature involvement not being automatic. Since that's a point that there's been several ideas on I think I'll start a poll to get a concrete measure.
I've got only one week of school left, so it's crunch time and I'm not 100% there, but the one comment I can make on the constitution outline put forward is that for the electoral system we may as well keep using the current two round system we have now, it's been working well enough.
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Here is my list of laws that I ultimately want to see altered.
Advisory Council Act
Citizen-Initiator Act
Citizen-Liaison Act
Delegacy Act
Ecclesia Procedure Act
Judiciary Act
Militia Act
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I've gone ahead and drafted a possible Constitution:
1. Citizenship
1. Any person who possesses a nation in the region of Taijitu may apply for citizenship.
2. The content of applications for citizenship will be established by law.
3. Citizenship may only be revoked if a citizen's nation ceases to be in Taijitu, as punishment for a crime, or if a citizen renounces it willingly.
4. The Citizen-Initiator will evaluate and accept or reject all applications for citizenship.
5. If the Citizen-Initiator rejects an application for citizenship, the Ecclesia may approve it by a majority vote.
2. Bill of Rights
1. All citizens are guaranteed equal protection under the law.
2. No citizen may be deprived of access the Regional Forums necessary to exercise their other rights.
3. No citizen may be subjected to inquiry into their private affairs absent reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.
4. No citizen may be charged for an act that was not a crime at the time it was committed.
5. No citizen may be found guilty of a crime by decree or legislation.
6. No citizen charged with a crime may be kept ignorant of the charges against them
7. No citizen charged with a crime may be deprived of a swift, fair and public trial.
8. No citizen may be deprived of representation at a trial.
9. No citizen may be compelled to bear witness against themselves.
10. All citizens are guaranteed the freedom conscience, expression and assocation.
11. All citizens are guaranteed the right to participate in any election.
12. All citizens are guaranteed the right to run for and hold public office.
13. No citizen may be ejected from Taijitu or limited in their access to the Regional Forums absent criminal charges.
14. No person will be considered necessarily deprived of any right not enumerated here.
3. The Ecclesia
1. The Ecclesia will consist of all citizens of Taijitu.
2. The Ecclesia may adopt, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote.
4. The Ecclesia may amend this consitution by two two-thirds majority votes held no less than a week apart.
5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law.
6. The Citizen-Initiator will conduct the business of the Ecclesia and maintain records of the law.
7. The Citizen-Initiator may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
4. The Directorate
1. The Directorate will be composed of the Citizen-Delegate, the Citizen-Steward and the Citizen-Sergeant.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy.
4. The Citizen-Seargant will serve as commander in chief of the armed forces and conduct military policy.
5. Members of the Directorate may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
6. Members of the Directorate may style the titles of their deputies as appropriate.
5. Elections
1. The offices of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Steward, Citizen-Seargent and Citizen-Initiator will be considered elected offices.
2. An election for an elected office will be held if three months have passed since the last election for the office, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election for the office by majority vote or the office is vacant.
3. Elections will be held using the two-round system with a majority threshold.
4. Ties during elections will be broken in favor of the candidate who declared their candidacy first.
I agree that a number of laws will also have to be altered inline with any constitution.
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Yay Gulliver! I love it with the first read through. Though 5.4 is an odd way to break a tie. It is very heartening to see the effort you have put into this :) Hoping I can get some good time today to work up specific alterations needed to other laws.
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I've gone ahead and drafted a possible Constitution:
1. Citizenship
1. Any person who possesses a nation in the region of Taijitu may apply for citizenship.
2. The content of applications for citizenship will be established by law.
3. Citizenship may only be revoked if a citizen's nation ceases to be in Taijitu, as punishment for a crime, or if a citizen renounces it willingly.
4. The Citizen-Initiator will evaluate and accept or reject all applications for citizenship.
5. If the Citizen-Initiator rejects an application for citizenship, the Ecclesia may approve it by a majority vote.
2. Bill of Rights
1. All citizens are guaranteed equal protection under the law.
2. No citizen may be deprived of access the Regional Forums necessary to exercise their other rights.
3. No citizen may be subjected to inquiry into their private affairs absent reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.
4. No citizen may be charged for an act that was not a crime at the time it was committed.
5. No citizen may be found guilty of a crime by decree or legislation.
6. No citizen charged with a crime may be kept ignorant of the charges against them
7. No citizen charged with a crime may be deprived of a swift, fair and public trial.
8. No citizen may be deprived of representation at a trial.
9. No citizen may be compelled to bear witness against themselves.
10. All citizens are guaranteed the freedom conscience, expression and assocation.
11. All citizens are guaranteed the right to participate in any election.
12. All citizens are guaranteed the right to run for and hold public office.
13. No citizen may be ejected from Taijitu or limited in their access to the Regional Forums absent criminal charges.
14. No person will be considered necessarily deprived of any right not enumerated here.
3. The Ecclesia
1. The Ecclesia will consist of all citizens of Taijitu.
2. The Ecclesia may adopt, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote.
4. The Ecclesia may amend this consitution by two two-thirds majority votes held no less than a week apart.
5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law.
6. The Citizen-Initiator will conduct the business of the Ecclesia and maintain records of the law.
7. The Citizen-Initiator may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
4. The Directorate
1. The Directorate will be composed of the Citizen-Delegate, the Citizen-Steward and the Citizen-Sergeant.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy.
4. The Citizen-Seargant will serve as commander in chief of the armed forces and conduct military policy.
5. Members of the Directorate may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
6. Members of the Directorate may style the titles of their deputies as appropriate.
5. Elections
1. The offices of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Steward, Citizen-Seargent and Citizen-Initiator will be considered elected offices.
2. An election for an elected office will be held if three months have passed since the last election for the office, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election for the office by majority vote or the office is vacant.
3. Elections will be held using the two-round system with a majority threshold.
4. Ties during elections will be broken in favor of the candidate who declared their candidacy first.
I agree that a number of laws will also have to be altered inline with any constitution.
This seems quite similar to what we have. What are the major differences?
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Yay Gulliver! I love it with the first read through. Though 5.4 is an odd way to break a tie. It is very heartening to see the effort you have put into this :) Hoping I can get some good time today to work up specific alterations needed to other laws.
An alternative would be seniority of citizenship.
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Yay Gulliver! I love it with the first read through. Though 5.4 is an odd way to break a tie. It is very heartening to see the effort you have put into this :) Hoping I can get some good time today to work up specific alterations needed to other laws.
An alternative would be seniority of citizenship.
:o the oligarchy
I should have actual comments at some point, but until then let's standardize the spelling of sergeant please :P
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Yay Gulliver! I love it with the first read through. Though 5.4 is an odd way to break a tie. It is very heartening to see the effort you have put into this :) Hoping I can get some good time today to work up specific alterations needed to other laws.
An alternative would be seniority of citizenship.
Though inclined for reasons of favoring the self I believe an alternative of an IRV would be more fair.
:o the oligarchy
I should have actual comments at some point, but until then let's standardize the spelling of sergeant please :P
Sir gent? Who's that? :P
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Though inclined for reasons of favoring the self I believe an alternative of an IRV would be more fair.
I'm fine with IRV, but even then you'd still need a tie-breaking mechanism because people might be tied for lowest number of votes in a given round. Indeed, any electoral method will need a tie-breaking method of some kind.
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Maybe give the C-I the power to break ties?
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no
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no
So blatant.
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I think there are better methods, even running the election endlessly until we have a winner is better than C-I breaking tie, it might be very unlikely there will be ties at the end. And shove señor-ity up...the ventilation shaft.
How about:
X. In case of tie, break in favor of: The one that has never held office; The one that has not held any office immediately before the election; The one that has not held this office immediately before the election; or The one that has held any office the least times.
This way at least we guarantee a sort of rotation. I'd be more in favor of a proper rotation but introducing the notion of rotation in this bill will suffice for my legislative anger beast to shred all your damn conventions. Maybe people shouldn't be able to hold any office consecutively as well. CHAIR DANCE!
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I think there are better methods, even running the election endlessly until we have a winner is better than C-I breaking tie, it might be very unlikely there will be ties at the end. And shove señor-ity up...the ventilation shaft.
How about:
X. In case of tie, break in favor of: The one that has never held office; The one that has not held any office immediately before the election; The one that has not held this office immediately before the election; or The one that has held any office the least times.
This way at least we guarantee a sort of rotation. I'd be more in favor of a proper rotation but introducing the notion of rotation in this bill will suffice for my legislative anger beast to shred all your damn conventions. Maybe people shouldn't be able to hold any office consecutively as well. CHAIR DANCE!
I like this means.
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Could it be simplified as held elected office the least recently?
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he's running again for the same office and never held any other office before, the other guy has held 2 other offices but haven't run in a year, in your simplification the guy that already held office can have another go, the point is that people who held power "most recently", specially immediately before, don't get a go, so they can't warm the seat too much, and this is even in the event of tie so it's like a super special rare occasion that likely will never happen. You can't simplify, it needs all those clauses to "break ties" if they tie about holding or not holding office.
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You can't simplify, it needs all those clauses to "break ties" if they tie about holding or not holding office.
It's actually quite possible for two people to tie for all the clauses, as it is, in retrospect, for two people to tie on my proposed simplified version. One thing that wouldn't tie would be forum registration time. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good way to randomly break ties in a verifiable manner, unless we can think of a good verifiable way to generate a seed for a random number generator.
I don't expect ties to be super common, so the tie-breaking logic we adopt doesn't have to be perfect and cover every single case, it just has to be good enough. All the clauses in your proposal will trigger with such rarity, if ever, that they will contribute very little in forcing transfers in power to justify the added complexity.
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I've gone ahead and drafted a possible Constitution:
1. Citizenship
1. Any person who possesses a nation in the region of Taijitu may apply for citizenship.
2. The content of applications for citizenship will be established by law.
3. Citizenship may only be revoked if a citizen's nation ceases to be in Taijitu, as punishment for a crime, or if a citizen renounces it willingly.
4. The Citizen-Initiator will evaluate and accept or reject all applications for citizenship.
5. If the Citizen-Initiator rejects an application for citizenship, the Ecclesia may approve it by a majority vote.
2. Bill of Rights
1. All citizens are guaranteed equal protection under the law.
2. No citizen may be deprived of access the Regional Forums necessary to exercise their other rights.
3. No citizen may be subjected to inquiry into their private affairs absent reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.
4. No citizen may be charged for an act that was not a crime at the time it was committed.
5. No citizen may be found guilty of a crime by decree or legislation.
6. No citizen charged with a crime may be kept ignorant of the charges against them
7. No citizen charged with a crime may be deprived of a swift, fair and public trial.
8. No citizen may be deprived of representation at a trial.
9. No citizen may be compelled to bear witness against themselves.
10. All citizens are guaranteed the freedom conscience, expression and assocation.
11. All citizens are guaranteed the right to participate in any election.
12. All citizens are guaranteed the right to run for and hold public office.
13. No citizen may be ejected from Taijitu or limited in their access to the Regional Forums absent criminal charges.
14. No person will be considered necessarily deprived of any right not enumerated here.
3. The Ecclesia
1. The Ecclesia will consist of all citizens of Taijitu.
2. The Ecclesia may adopt, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote.
4. The Ecclesia may amend this consitution by two two-thirds majority votes held no less than a week apart.
5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law.
6. The Citizen-Initiator will conduct the business of the Ecclesia and maintain records of the law.
7. The Citizen-Initiator may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
4. The Directorate
1. The Directorate will be composed of the Citizen-Delegate, the Citizen-Steward and the Citizen-Sergeant.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy.
4. The Citizen-Seargant will serve as commander in chief of the armed forces and conduct military policy.
5. Members of the Directorate may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
6. Members of the Directorate may style the titles of their deputies as appropriate.
5. Elections
1. The offices of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Steward, Citizen-Seargent and Citizen-Initiator will be considered elected offices.
2. An election for an elected office will be held if three months have passed since the last election for the office, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election for the office by majority vote or the office is vacant.
3. Elections will be held using the two-round system with a majority threshold.
4. Ties during elections will be broken in favor of the candidate who declared their candidacy first.
I agree that a number of laws will also have to be altered inline with any constitution.
I approve of most of this. My :2c:
I'm not in favour of 3.1. I'm a strong believer in the old Taijitu Senate model. Have an application process.
5.4 is also a problem. I would prefer Delfos' proposal.
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At the time I wrote this draft, the two options tied. Right now, the apply to be a member option has a slight lead, albeit not a 2/3's one. I make an alternate draft including it, though it may be harder to pass.
This also brings up a point that I in my eternal lack of foresight overlooked, namely what kind of application? Is it approved by the Citizen-Initiator as a procedural matter, by a vote of the Ecclesia, or something else?
On the issue of tie-breaking, I think we still lack an option which can't actually just tie again.
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My objection to giving whoever was nominated first is that it's so arbitrary. I'm not opposed to giving some elected position the job of casting a tie-breaking vote, but Delfos' plan definitely disperses the power, which is appealing.
This may sound silly but...how about a flip of a coin? Or some other 50/50 activity? I'm a football fan. And it's getting to the end of the regular season. So you hear a lot of talk about tie-breaking formulas when it comes to playoff seeding. No joke. A coin flip is the option of last resort if two teams are tied in the standings through all measurable statistics.
There are logistical issues, but none that can't be overcome.
https://www.random.org/coins/
Obviously this would be a last resort option. I don't expect it to become a regular occurrence.
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I'm fine with breaking ties randomly if it's verifiable. Some way of picking a random generator seed that's deterministic but not controlled by a single person might work (e.g. hash the sum of post time stamps in the nomination thread or something).
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I like it as it is mostly; I agree that breaking ties randomly could work.
I like our Citizen-Mediator system for personal disputes but I think recent events have demonstrated the necessity of some sort of constitutional court.
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I agree that we need some sort of explicit mechanism for evaluating constitutional and legal disputes is needed. I also think that clearer language on how treaties are negotiated, adopted and repealed. I would suggest that the Citizen-Delegate may negotiation treaties and embassies exchanges, and the Ecclesia may ratify them by a two-thirds majority. I'm not sure about repealing.
The recent discussion about military policy has also made me wonder if a separate, elected Citizen-Sergeant would have much to do if day-to-day operations were being run by separate armies or militias. Perhaps the power of bringing these forces together for joint operations in defense of Taijitu or her allies should also fall to the Citizen-Delegate, creating a single, game-side office.
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All of this would depend on what shape TaiMil ends up taking but assuming (for the sake of argument) that the private militia proposal goes forward?
I still see the importance of TaiMil as a separate, independent branch of the government. TaiMil would need to act as an umbrella organization to direct general military policy and still organize Taijitu military operations. Even perhaps coordinate joint operations between the various private militias.
It would further act as an agency to ensure that private militias don't engage in activity that goes against Taijitu's regional interests. Basically ensuring that these militias don't violate any treaties Taijitu is a part of.
I think there's going to be enough to do on the TaiMil end of things to justify keeping the Citizen-Sergeant on as its own elected position.
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I am not sure what section it would fit best in, but I think clarifying language such as the following could be useful:
1. The Citizen-Delegate may negotiate treaties and embassy exchanges.
2. The Ecclesia may ratify treaties and embassy exchanges negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may repeal a treaty or embassy exchange by a majority vote.
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I like.
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I dislike this Citizen-.... (fill-in position name) formulas, they sound so phony, like you need to affirm that they are elected and not some sort of Egyptian gods. I liked the titles we or some other regions had used before, be it made-up ones or the Ministers position we had.
On top I can't help but picturing the Sergeant as a fat guy with a 'stache who is playing military and hurries up to go home cuz it's 5 pm and his wife is waiting with supper. Again, the one who serves, not the one who commands. It sounds like an attending officer, the one who makes sure you have enough socks and your nails are clean.
I love the use of a random "coin-toss" instrument for breaking up ties. Simple and effective.
I agree with Prydania on re-introducing the application and grilling process of a citizen into the parliamentary assembly of the region.
Not sure how you want to empower the Directorate and the individual executives but have this in there: 5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law. That is too vague for my taste. I believe that any new executive will have to present a governance program and the Parliament will discuss and sanction it, amending and requesting modifications, if necessary.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote. - for any or no reason?
Futhermore, I did love a system with a more elaborate government rank: 3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy. - who the heck is this government? :)))) just this guy and the poor Sergeant. You could call it a couple or a pair instead of the government.
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Head of government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_government) is a common political title (note the absence of "the" before "government").
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:tai:
I support this in principle.
I've gone ahead and drafted a possible Constitution:
1. Citizenship
1. Any person who possesses a nation in the region of Taijitu may apply for citizenship.
2. The content of applications for citizenship will be established by law.
3. Citizenship may only be revoked if a citizen's nation ceases to be in Taijitu, as punishment for a crime, or if a citizen renounces it willingly.
4. The Citizen-Initiator will evaluate and accept or reject all applications for citizenship.
5. If the Citizen-Initiator rejects an application for citizenship, the Ecclesia may approve it by a majority vote.
2. Bill of Rights
1. All citizens are guaranteed equal protection under the law.
2. No citizen may be deprived of access the Regional Forums necessary to exercise their other rights.
3. No citizen may be subjected to inquiry into their private affairs absent reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.
4. No citizen may be charged for an act that was not a crime at the time it was committed.
5. No citizen may be found guilty of a crime by decree or legislation.
6. No citizen charged with a crime may be kept ignorant of the charges against them
7. No citizen charged with a crime may be deprived of a swift, fair and public trial.
8. No citizen may be deprived of representation at a trial.
9. No citizen may be compelled to bear witness against themselves.
10. All citizens are guaranteed the freedom conscience, expression and assocation.
11. All citizens are guaranteed the right to participate in any election.
12. All citizens are guaranteed the right to run for and hold public office.
13. No citizen may be ejected from Taijitu or limited in their access to the Regional Forums absent criminal charges.
14. No person will be considered necessarily deprived of any right not enumerated here.
3. The Ecclesia
1. The Ecclesia will consist of all citizens of Taijitu.
2. The Ecclesia may adopt, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote.
4. The Ecclesia may amend this consitution by two two-thirds majority votes held no less than a week apart.
5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law.
6. The Citizen-Initiator will conduct the business of the Ecclesia and maintain records of the law.
7. The Citizen-Initiator may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
4. The Directorate
1. The Directorate will be composed of the Citizen-Delegate, the Citizen-Steward and the Citizen-Sergeant.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy.
4. The Citizen-Seargant will serve as commander in chief of the armed forces and conduct military policy.
5. Members of the Directorate may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
6. Members of the Directorate may style the titles of their deputies as appropriate.
5. Elections
1. The offices of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Steward, Citizen-Seargent and Citizen-Initiator will be considered elected offices.
2. An election for an elected office will be held if three months have passed since the last election for the office, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election for the office by majority vote or the office is vacant.
3. Elections will be held using the two-round system with a majority threshold.
4. Ties during elections will be broken in favor of the candidate who declared their candidacy first.
I agree that a number of laws will also have to be altered inline with any constitution.
Two things:
Article 2:13 is just repeating Article 1:3.
Under paragraph four should be added:
4:7 No Citizen may be elected for more than one office in the Directorate.
I am not happy with the formulation of 5:4, but I have no real alternative. Perhaps the random solution would be for the best?