Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Gulliver on December 26, 2014, 05:30:31 AM
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When the Glorious Revolution brought our current system of government into being so many months ago, the Citizen-Delegate was only formally established as a figurehead. Since then, however, as the region has grown we've become increasing involved in the gameplay side of NationStates again rather than just sticking to ourselves. The Delegate and the people who work with them are a necessity of this part of NationStates, so I think, with our Delegate election about to conclude, that it's time to expand and formalize the Delegate's portfolio. To that end I have drafted the following initial, and admittedly quite short, proposal:
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any person who is a citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate of is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
3. The Prytaneion
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint a Prytaneion of deputies to assist them in their duties.
2. All deputies of the Prytaneion will be citizens of Taijitu.
3. The Ecclesia may remove a member of the Prytaneion by a majority vote.
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I have no issues with this.
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Can i get a little bit of an elaboration on
3. The Prytaneion
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint a Prytaneion of deputies to assist them in their duties.
2. All deputies of the Prytaneion will be citizens of Taijitu.
3. The Ecclesia may remove a member of the Prytaneion by a majority vote.
is the vice pres or sumthin?
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Can i get a little bit of an elaboration on
3. The Prytaneion
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint a Prytaneion of deputies to assist them in their duties.
2. All deputies of the Prytaneion will be citizens of Taijitu.
3. The Ecclesia may remove a member of the Prytaneion by a majority vote.
is the vice pres or sumthin?
secret cult. this name and reason for it's existence doesn't seem pertinent unless it's to enlarge the ego of the Delegate in a rather eccentric political arrangement we have with this Ecclesia. For this figure to exist it'd make sense the assembly to decide if it's necessary or who is. So, what is it atm and what do you want it to be?
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"The Prytaneion" is meant to be similar to a cabinet.
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So for shits and giggles he can pick a bunch of people and give them powers?
I fail to see democracy in action here.
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It's not exactly for "shits and giggles," but if you want to reduce the office of the Citizen-Delegate to such a juvenile level then be my guest.
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Are you okay Funk? You seem upset.
Taking an example from American govt, these people should be approved by the Ecclesia, rather than having a vote to remove them.
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Do we have to use the name Prytaneion? I don't really like it :P Can we just use cabinet or executive council?
I don't think Funk is upset, I think he was just responding to your juvenile comment. Obviously this doesn't mean that the Delegate has the power to appoint all officers, but that they "may" appoint a cabinet of people to assist them. I don't have a problem with that. Ultimately we elect the Delegate to lead and to guide the ecclesia, if we cannot trust them to appoint a couple of people to help them without it all degenerating in to some corrupt morass then we shouldn't have elected them in the first place >___>
The Ecclesia still has the power to remove officers, so overall, I don't have an issue with this act. Well done to Gulliver for taking the initiative to propose this. Some of you are happy to simply scream blue murder and protest over nothing than to actually come up with proposals yourself.
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Do we have to use the name Prytaneion? I don't really like it :P Can we just use cabinet or executive council?
Ultimately we elect the Delegate to lead and to guide the ecclesia
No, I disagree. Ultimately we elect the Delegate to hold a public service position to be guided by the ecclesia.
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Bustos, let's keep things civil and not reduce people's ideas to simple soundbites. Antagonizing people will not serve this discussion positively.
I am in support of these measures, though I, like McMasterdonia, think we should reconsider the name.
Allama has brought up that she feels in some areas she knows not enough to be as effective as she could be; this is exactly what appointing a cabinet is meant to rectify. I don't think it is a threat to democracy any more than any cabinet in any democracy is a threat to the system; the appointed members hold no real power other than to advise the delegate.
To comment on the delegate's position in "leading the Ecclesia" - I wouldn't go that far. The Ecclesia should be the supreme power in Taijitu, but there are some things that it simply can't do. We can't have the Ecclesia vote on everything said in an informal discussion with diplomats from another region, or whether to suppress every offensive post on the RMB, or whether to send in the TaiMil to defend a region hours before a raid is expected.
For this reason we elect a delegate. But no delegate is an expert in everything. Wouldn't it be better to give them a few advisors than half-ass it?
I would be interested in hearing Allama's views on this. As Taijitu's only delegate since the Revolution, I think she knows especially well how the delegate functions next to our legislature.
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Do we have to use the name Prytaneion? I don't really like it :P Can we just use cabinet or executive council?
Ultimately we elect the Delegate to lead and to guide the ecclesia
No, I disagree. Ultimately we elect the Delegate to hold a public service position to be guided by the ecclesia.
Agreed with Delfos. It's a civil service.
For this reason we elect a delegate. But no delegate is an expert in everything. Wouldn't it be better to give them a few advisors than half-ass it?
I never said I was against the cabinet. My comment was the power of the delegate to pick and choose without approval of the Ecclesia. Not very democratic from where I am sitting.
Hence my reference to American Govt, where the President can nominate who they want and the Congress has to approve of it.
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I don't see why we should force the Ecclesia to vote on appointing a position with no real power. We could make it like the Citizen-Diplomat, where the Ecclesia can recall any appointment made that is unacceptable.
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The British Ministers do not have to be approved by a vote, nor do the Indian Ministers. The French Cabinet is also appointed by the executive with no vote. Similarly, the German Cabinet is not approved by a vote of the legislature. The Spanish Council of Ministers is appointed as well.
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I like it overall however it is vague as to the powers specific to the Delegate and those which would be granted to the Prytaneion. Now personally I would love to see some responsibilities added to the position such as "It shall be the duty of the Delegate and Prytaneion to uphold the image of Taijitu. It shall be the duty of the Delegate and Prytaneion to ensure new members of the Region and Ecclesia are well informed when seeking information."
I would like to hear Als thoughts as well as to more particular duties and powers.
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To continue on this vein: the Secretary of Defense makes decisions about the military, and the Secretary of State helps craft foreign policy, which is why those positions are approved by Congress. A personal set of advisors would have no such powers.
EDIT: I gladly support Khem's proposal. The few powers the cabinet does have should be clearly delineated.
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If they are merely advisors, why give them an official title and position when all of the Ecclesia is available for giving advice?
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I don't see why we should force the Ecclesia to vote on appointing a position with no real power. We could make it like the Citizen-Diplomat, where the Ecclesia can recall any appointment made that is unacceptable.
Then what is the point of the position to begin with? The delegate cant simply ask the experts for help? I'm lost between this apparent need for a special cabinet and the "appointing a position with no real power." ??? Again sounds more like something to do for shits and giggles.
If they are merely advisors, why give them an official title and position when all of the Ecclesia is available for giving advice?
Exactly.
Cant say the power rests in the Ecclesia, that we're a democracy, and take more and more power away from it. I stem all of my arguments, from the belief that Ecclesia is the power in Taijitu.
You guys talk a lot but your actions/proposals are betraying your words. Just saying. :shrug:
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I personally view the powers we grant as needing to be along two veins. The one being foreign relations, the second being ministering to the needs of community. I say expand the number of Citizen-Diplomats and place them under the umbrella of the Delegacy for the first. Create something like the old Ministry of Community out of the Prytaneion to handle the second.
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Khem: I think a delegate may prefer to appoint several people who they personally trust as advisors rather than the Ecclesia at large. We should leave the big decisions to the legislature and not bother it with minor, every day decisions that the delegate can make with the cabinet's help.
I'd prefer to make this official so that the idea of an elite shadowy cabal controlling everything, which already seems to be in place among some members of the electorate, can be nipped in the bud. A cabinet is transparent and its dealings more open.
Bustos: I resent the implication that I'm somehow hurting Taijitu by supporting this measure. I ask that you please keep your criticism constructive.
EDIT: Khem's proposal sounds more than satisfactory to me.
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A good few interesting points. I will try to respond with some thoughts of my own later today.
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Khem: I think a delegate may prefer to appoint several people who they personally trust as advisors rather than the Ecclesia at large. We should leave the big decisions to the legislature and not bother it with minor, every day decisions that the delegate can make with the cabinet's help.
I'd prefer to make this official so that the idea of an elite shadowy cabal controlling everything, which already seems to be in place among some members of the electorate, can be nipped in the bud. A cabinet is transparent and its dealings more open.
This makes sense and I can support having advisors part of an open list, though I doubt it will effect any ideas about the cabal among those who see them. Even illumination leaves shadows to guess at after all.
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This makes sense and I can support having advisors part of an open list, though I doubt it will effect any ideas about the cabal among those who see them. Even illumination leaves shadows to guess at after all.
Wow, I basically just said this same thing in IRC. Great minds think alike.
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Wow this discussion has moved faster than I thought it would. To address some of what's been said
I'm not particularly attached to the term "Prytaneion" and would be fine with "Cabinet" or the like.
As Al' Khem suggested, instead of having a broader "Cabinet" of vague deputies we could instead explicitly limit the assistant positions the Delegate can appoint to citizen-diplomats to assist them in their foreign policy role, which I think is likely to be their main responsibility and the one which is most difficult to do alone.
Whatever appointments the Delegate makes, I don't think they need to be approved by the Ecclesia. The Delegate already has the mandate of a majority in the Ecclesia, and I think to keep things simple and straightforward we should follow a parliamentary model like the countries Funkadelia cited rather than a presidential one. This has always been the basis we've worked on with executive appointments in the past and it's never been a problem.
I would be fine with including the community building aspect of the delegate's job in their explicitly enumerated powers.
I do agree that the Ecclesia should be the supreme body and that the Delegate should serve it rather than lead it.
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I think al'Khem's proposal is the simplest and easiest, and the most acceptable to the most people. I would endorse appointing multiple diplomats, and perhaps "community aides" to help things internally.
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I think al'Khem's proposal is the simplest and easiest, and the most acceptable to the most people. I would endorse appointing multiple diplomats, and perhaps "community aides" to help things internally.
Perhaps the term Citizen-Liaison for these "community aides"?
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I agree with Myroria and Al' Khem, and like the sound of "citizen-liason".
In fact it may not even be necessary to refer to them as a collective "Cabinet" if people are uneasy about that, especially if their powers are so specific.
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I agree and perhaps in the proposal we should create separate subsections for each duties and powers for each subsidiary positions. My question becomes should each of these sets of functionaries have a head(i.e. Lead-Diplomat/Liaison)?
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I think for now it would be better to keep things as flat and add additional layers if necessary, or to say that the Delegate can designate a hierarchy within each group like how the Citizen-Sergeant can give out ranks.
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1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any person who is a citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate of is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
In the interests of making progress, based on discussion thus far, I propose a motion to put the above to a vote for approval and addition to our by laws.
In the mean time, to keep open the discussion regarding:
3. The Prytaneion
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint a Prytaneion of deputies to assist them in their duties.
2. All deputies of the Prytaneion will be citizens of Taijitu.
3. The Ecclesia may remove a member of the Prytaneion by a majority vote.
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It's been less than a day, I don't think there's any rush to get to a vote yet. Some people had also mentioned a community-building role for the delegate, which I'm not sure is covered by the current language of article 2.
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With all the discussion, I forgot this was so recently posted. O:-)
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There seems to be consensus so far that the Delegate should conduct foreign policy and should be able to appoint a number of citizen-diplomats to help them do so, so I'd like to introduce an updated version which instead of a general Cabinet only provides for the appointment of citizen-diplomats to help with foreign policy.
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
3. Citizen-Diplomats
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint any number of citizens of Taijitu as citizen-diplomats to assist them in conducting foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate may dismiss citizen-diplomats at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-diplomat by a majority vote.
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There seems to be consensus so far that the Delegate should conduct foreign policy and should be able to appoint a number of citizen-diplomats to help them do so, so I'd like to introduce an updated version which instead of a general Cabinet only provides for the appointment of citizen-diplomats to help with foreign policy.
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
3. Citizen-Diplomats
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint any number of citizens of Taijitu as citizen-diplomats to assist them in conducting foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate may dismiss citizen-diplomats at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-diplomat by a majority vote.
:taijitu:
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There seems to be consensus so far that the Delegate should conduct foreign policy and should be able to appoint a number of citizen-diplomats to help them do so, so I'd like to introduce an updated version which instead of a general Cabinet only provides for the appointment of citizen-diplomats to help with foreign policy.
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
3. Citizen-Diplomats
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint any number of citizens of Taijitu as citizen-diplomats to assist them in conducting foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate may dismiss citizen-diplomats at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-diplomat by a majority vote.
I like this. We can examine creating some kind of Community department in a separate discussion.
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There seems to be consensus so far that the Delegate should conduct foreign policy and should be able to appoint a number of citizen-diplomats to help them do so, so I'd like to introduce an updated version which instead of a general Cabinet only provides for the appointment of citizen-diplomats to help with foreign policy.
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
3. Citizen-Diplomats
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint any number of citizens of Taijitu as citizen-diplomats to assist them in conducting foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate may dismiss citizen-diplomats at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-diplomat by a majority vote.
:taijitu:
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Due to an unclosed quote tag in Gulliver's post all of our replies were messed up. I went through and fixed it for every reply, but please feel free to edit your post further if I got it wrong.
I move for a vote.
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1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any person who is a citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate of is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
In the interests of making progress, based on discussion thus far, I propose a motion to put the above to a vote for approval and addition to our by laws.
In the mean time, to keep open the discussion regarding:
3. The Prytaneion
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint a Prytaneion of deputies to assist them in their duties.
2. All deputies of the Prytaneion will be citizens of Taijitu.
3. The Ecclesia may remove a member of the Prytaneion by a majority vote.
It's been less than a day, I don't think there's any rush to get to a vote yet. Some people had also mentioned a community-building role for the delegate, which I'm not sure is covered by the current language of article 2.
With all the discussion, I forgot this was so recently posted. O:-)
Due to an unclosed quote tag in Gulliver's post all of our replies were messed up. I went through and fixed it for every reply, but please feel free to edit your post further if I got it wrong.
I move for a vote.
Yeah I already tried that. :shrug:
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Sorry, I should clarify I didn't mean an immediate vote. I've gotten used, perhaps, to the practice in TNP's Regional Assembly of having a period of 'formal debate' of a few days following a motion to vote.
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Well in that case, I second your motion.
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I'll move this to a vote if no one objects or points out some terrible mistake within a day.
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I move to hold the vote until monday night to allow people who haven't seen this yet the chance to do so.
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I have no problems with this
APPROVED
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1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Delegate.
2. An election for Citizen-Delegate will be held if three months have passed since the start of the previous election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Delegate is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Delegate for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will hold the in-game delegacy of the region of Taijitu with full powers and will exercise them as provided by law.
3. Citizen-Diplomats
1. The Citizen-Delegate may appoint any number of citizens of Taijitu as citizen-diplomats to assist them in conducting foreign policy.
2. The Citizen-Delegate may dismiss citizen-diplomats at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-diplomat by a majority vote.
Thanks for holding the vote until Monday (today)!
This is fantastic: a great discussion appears to have been had and the end result is an act I can definitely get behind. The one power I truly wished for was appointing/dismissing multiple diplomats at will. Otherwise, the responsibilities of the Citizen-Delegate seem quite well stated.
As far as a cabinet of advisors is concerned, I don't see the need to formalize it. If paranoid people want to see a shadowy cabal, they will. Mostly when I have a question I openly ask in #taijitu, anyway.
Future Citizen-Delegates may feel differently, of course, so I wouldn't oppose an official cabinet. I just won't push for one.
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This has been moved to a vote (http://forum.taijitu.org/legislative-and-treaty-votes/delegacy-act/).