Taijitu

Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Gulliver on February 09, 2015, 12:37:32 AM

Title: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Gulliver on February 09, 2015, 12:37:32 AM
Our current oath of citizenship, I find, is a bit awkwardly worded in parts, and contains at least one spelling error. As such, I would like to propose that we amend the Citizenship Act to update it:

Quote from: Oath of Citizenship
I, ([forum name)] hereby in sober mind, and good conscious conscience, hereby declare my loyalty to the People Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu, and to the principles which our state is founded upon, those being Direct Democracy, and Egalitarianism, of the Glorious Revolution. I promise swear to respect and uphold, as both a Citizen and Member of the Ecclesia, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Standing Ordinances of the Ecclesia and the Glorious Revolution, and the laws which are currently in effect, adopted by the Ecclesia. and I understand recognize that should I break my oath or any term dictated above I shall be prosecuted within to the fullest extent of the law and that my citizenship may be forfeit., in good conscience do I promise.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Delfos on February 09, 2015, 01:06:28 AM
yes please  :taijitu:

This or get rid of the oath :keke:
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Myroria on February 09, 2015, 01:12:51 AM
Excellent, but if I may - the first instance of "Citizens' Democracy" in the proposed oath is missing the possessive apostrophe.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Gulliver on February 09, 2015, 01:30:16 AM
You are correct, I'll add it.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Khem on February 09, 2015, 05:11:57 AM
It looks better, the language is clearer. Is the sober mind bit necessary? Could one be proven to be under the influence while swearing the oath?
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Cormac on February 09, 2015, 07:10:29 AM
I was wondering about the sober mind thing too.  :P  Otherwise, I like this much better!
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Musitant on February 09, 2015, 05:12:02 PM
I like this much better. I'm okay with keeping the "sober mind" phrasing as it is. It reinforces the voluntary nature of the oath, but I would also understand if people want it removed.

To ask a stupid question: this wouldn't force citizens to retake the oath, correct? All existing citizens would be grandfathered in?
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Khem on February 09, 2015, 05:57:43 PM
As per the other relevant sections of the Legislation Concerning Citizenship (http://forum.taijitu.org/legislative-and-treaty-votes/legislation-concerning-citizenship-8834/) any existing citizens would not need to retake the oath.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Funkadelia on February 09, 2015, 07:52:11 PM
I'm excited that this validates the Taijitu government as one that exists as a revolution, and not simply a product of it.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Myroria on February 09, 2015, 08:45:10 PM
I'm excited that this validates the Taijitu government as one that exists as a revolution, and not simply a product of it.

Agreed heartily. I move we push this to a vote.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Musitant on February 10, 2015, 12:42:30 AM
Thanks, al 'Khem! I figured that would be true, but it's better to be safe than sorry.  ;D
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Allama on February 10, 2015, 06:00:34 PM
I'm excited that this validates the Taijitu government as one that exists as a revolution, and not simply a product of it.

Agreed heartily. I move we push this to a vote.

Seconded all 'round! Clear and concise language is always best in an oath.


To ask a stupid question: this wouldn't force citizens to retake the oath, correct? All existing citizens would be grandfathered in?

Not at all a stupid question. :)
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Gulliver on February 10, 2015, 08:28:18 PM
I'll move this to a vote in about 2 days if there are no objections.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Khem on February 10, 2015, 10:54:36 PM
I still have objections to the "sober mind" bit.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Delfos on February 11, 2015, 01:25:05 AM
I still have objections to the "sober mind" bit.

it does go against the teachings of the most prominent religion in Taijitu.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Bustos on February 11, 2015, 01:30:45 AM
I still have objections to the "sober mind" bit.

it does go against the teachings of the most prominent religion in Taijitu.

...and those who choose to not be sober.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Musitant on February 11, 2015, 04:47:35 AM
I don't think the "sober mind" clause is telling people not to drink what they want to drink or smoke what they want to smoke or anything like that. If it said that, I think we'd all want it gone.  :wine: :drunks:

As I understand it, it's just saying that one can't make the oath while drunk or high. The oath is a serious commitment and requires that the oath taker fully understand what it is they're committing to. That's my interpretation, at least.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Delfos on February 11, 2015, 12:36:00 PM
 :wine:  :drunks: :drunk:

We need more of these, and they would be sad if you included "sober mind". Save them drunks!
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Bustos on February 11, 2015, 03:59:01 PM
I don't think the "sober mind" clause is telling people not to drink what they want to drink or smoke what they want to smoke or anything like that. If it said that, I think we'd all want it gone.  :wine: :drunks:

As I understand it, it's just saying that one can't make the oath while drunk or high. The oath is a serious commitment and requires that the oath taker fully understand what it is they're committing to. That's my interpretation, at least.

I do believe the three of us (al 'Khem, Delfos, and I) are just having some fun and poking at the wording.  Ignore us.   :-P
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Khem on February 11, 2015, 09:18:37 PM
Nope. Not poking fun. I seriously dislike the notion that one can not make rational decisions sans sobriety.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Delfos on February 11, 2015, 09:38:28 PM
yeah, and I'm looking out for our religion that forbids long periods of sober.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Bustos on February 11, 2015, 10:23:06 PM
You guys...      :keke:
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Myroria on February 16, 2015, 06:28:15 AM
Quote
I, [forum name], in able mind and good conscience, hereby declare my loyalty to the Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu and to the principles of the Glorious Revolution. I swear to uphold the Constitution and the laws adopted by the Ecclesia. I recognize that should I break my oath I shall be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and my citizenship may be forfeit.

How does this edit appear to everyone?
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Cormac on February 16, 2015, 07:12:51 AM
Quote
I, [forum name], in able mind and good conscience, hereby declare my loyalty to the Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu and to the principles of the Glorious Revolution. I swear to uphold the Constitution and the laws adopted by the Ecclesia. I recognize that should I break my oath I shall be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and my citizenship may be forfeit.

How does this edit appear to everyone?

I much prefer this language.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Khem on February 16, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
:D works for me.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Delfos on February 16, 2015, 03:10:33 PM
:D works for me.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Allama on February 16, 2015, 04:51:11 PM
Quote
I, [forum name], in able mind and good conscience, hereby declare my loyalty to the Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu and to the principles of the Glorious Revolution. I swear to uphold the Constitution and the laws adopted by the Ecclesia. I recognize that should I break my oath I shall be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and my citizenship may be forfeit.

How does this edit appear to everyone?

Wondiferous. I move that we put this to a vote.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Cormac on February 16, 2015, 05:55:18 PM
Quote
I, [forum name], in able mind and good conscience, hereby declare my loyalty to the Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu and to the principles of the Glorious Revolution. I swear to uphold the Constitution and the laws adopted by the Ecclesia. I recognize that should I break my oath I shall be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and my citizenship may be forfeit.

How does this edit appear to everyone?

Wondiferous. I move that we put this to a vote.

Seconded.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Gulliver on February 16, 2015, 10:15:58 PM
I like it, but "in able mind" sounds slightly off to me. I think "of able mind and in good conscious would be better:

Quote from: Oath of Citizenship
I, ([forum name)] hereby [st]in sober[/st] [in]of able[/in] mind[st],[/st] and [in]in[/in] good conscious conscience, [in]do[/in] hereby declare my loyalty to the People Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu, and to the principles which our state is founded upon, those being Direct Democracy, and Egalitarianism, of the Glorious Revolution. I promise swear to respect and uphold, as both a Citizen and Member of the Ecclesia, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Standing Ordinances of the Ecclesia and the Glorious Revolution, and the laws which are currently in effect, adopted by the Ecclesia. and I understand recognize that should I break my oath or any term dictated above I shall be prosecuted within to the fullest extent of the law and that my citizenship may be forfeit., in good conscience do I promise.

"Sound" might read better than "able" as well but I'm on the fence about that since it's nitpicky.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Delfos on February 16, 2015, 11:04:19 PM
I like it, but "in able mind" sounds slightly off to me. I think "of able mind and in good conscious would be better:

Quote from: Oath of Citizenship
I, ([forum name)] hereby in sober of able mind, and in good conscious conscience, do hereby declare my loyalty to the People Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu, and to the principles which our state is founded upon, those being Direct Democracy, and Egalitarianism, of the Glorious Revolution. I promise swear to respect and uphold, as both a Citizen and Member of the Ecclesia, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Standing Ordinances of the Ecclesia and the Glorious Revolution, and the laws which are currently in effect, adopted by the Ecclesia. and I understand recognize that should I break my oath or any term dictated above I shall be prosecuted within to the fullest extent of the law and that my citizenship may be forfeit., in good conscience do I promise.

"Sound" might read better than "able" as well but I'm on the fence about that since it's nitpicky.

sound sounds good too, since this is clearly an alternative, you can put the alternatives in the vote, reserving a last one to Do not change the Oath of Citizenship, yet I wish there would also be an option to remove the Oath entirely.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Allama on February 19, 2015, 08:17:28 PM
yet I wish there would also be an option to remove the Oath entirely.

Any Citizen can propose changes to our laws. If you want to strike down the oath entirely, write up legislation saying so and make your case to the Ecclesia.

This proposal is for changing the oath, however, so I don't feel "remove it" would be a relevant option in this particular vote.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Delfos on February 19, 2015, 10:21:05 PM
precisely, well put m'am.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Gulliver on February 20, 2015, 05:34:11 AM
I move for a vote on the following proposal:

Quote from: Oath of Citizenship
I, ([forum name)] hereby in isober sound mind, and good conscious conscience, do hereby declare my loyalty to the People Citizens' Democracy of Taijitu, and to the principles which our state is founded upon, those being Direct Democracy, and Egalitarianism, of the Glorious Revolution. I promise swear to respect and uphold, as both a Citizen and Member of the Ecclesia, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Standing Ordinances of the Ecclesia and the Glorious Revolution, and the laws which are currently in effect, adopted by the Ecclesia. and I understand recognize that should I break my oath or any term dictated above I shall be prosecuted within to the fullest extent of the law and that my citizenship may be forfeit., in good conscience do I promise.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Myroria on February 20, 2015, 03:01:32 PM
Seconded.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Gulliver on February 20, 2015, 08:07:05 PM
I will move this to a vote in a couple of days if no objections are raised.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Markus Woolfe on February 23, 2015, 10:31:44 AM
great improvement
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Red Mones on February 25, 2015, 06:59:10 PM
great improvement
Indeed.
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: Bustos on February 27, 2015, 02:00:19 AM
Nice rewording.  +1
Title: Re: Oath of Citizenship
Post by: St Oz on February 27, 2015, 04:59:59 AM
Nice catch :fro: