Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Red Mones on September 22, 2015, 12:13:18 AM
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First, the rant:
The Citizen-Delegate (Allama) has been inactive lately. We currently have no acting Citizen-Initiator (Eluvatar's corrupt reign has ended). We're not bringing any WA proposals to a vote because of this. Not only that but we have 13 citizenship applications dating all the way back to August 22, that still haven't been accepted yet. This is a problem. It tells people not to get involved in the region because there is no activity here. One time Myroria accepted some applications because Cormac was inactive. This gave me an idea.
Second, The proposal:
There are two parts to this bill. First, the bill will make the current Citizen-Delegate acting Citizen-Initiator until he/she returns, or until the next election. Second, in case the C-D is inactive we will elect a sort of substitute Citizen-Delegate ( I guess we just call him/her Vice Citizen-Delegate) who will be acting C-D until he/she returns, or until the next election.
I've never written a bill before, so if anyone's interested they can help. Also since I've never written a bill before I want opinions, discussions, heated debates, the whole nine yards!
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Dude, we posted our inactivity proposals at almost the exact same time. Lol
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Although it would be kind of silly to have a vice C-D just for when the Citizen-Delegate is inactive.
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so hysitelroal
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The Citizen-Delegate (Allama) has been inactive lately. We currently have no acting Citizen-Initiator (Eluvatar's corrupt reign has ended). We're not bringing any WA proposals to a vote because of this.
First, I've not been super active lately, this much is true. I've been responding to all Embassy requests and hanging out on IRC a lot during the day but have otherwise not been up to much as C-D. Very little has come up for me to handle. One of the things I have been doing voluntarily outside of my duties is bringing things to vote in the Ecclesia in Eluvatar's absence. As I've no idea what sort of security checks are normally performed, I've left Citizenry applications alone, hoping Elu would return or that someone more knowledgable in that arena would jump in to help.
Second, I started putting WA proposals up for vote because I thought it would be more democratic to involve the Citizenry in the decision. I stopped doing so because they've recently been passing a lot of junk legislation that immediately gets repealed. Heck, I've stopped even looking at them because it seems like a huge waste of time. I didn't know people actually gave a shit, especially since people in IRC have often said that they don't care about the WA any more. Now that I've been made aware that some Citizens are actually still interested, I'll start posting the polls again. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
For the record, however, it's not actually an official part of the job, just something I personally thought would be nice to do. I'm not "inactive" or neglecting my duties just because I've not been polling WA proposals.
Third, a Vice Citizen-Delegate is a good idea. Supported!
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Basically what Allama said :P
If there is interest in a Vice Delegate role, I suggest making a thread specifically for that idea
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I'm not in the WA, so I don't care what happens there either, but it just seems like the Ecclesia only passes these "acts" that don't seem to do anything. It's just something else to vote on really. I, personally, would make it a part of the job. I mean, the whole point of democracy is voting, right? Technically, it should really be the Initiator's job to do the WA proposals though, but then what does the Delegate do? He/She might as well be named Citizen-Embassy-Accepter. And lastly, I'm repeating my previous point, which is, what other things will a Vice-Delegate do? It's silly to have that office just for when the Delegate is inactive.
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And lastly, I'm repeating my previous point, which is, what other things will a Vice-Delegate do? It's silly to have that office just for when the Delegate is inactive.
It's not strictly necessary but we've had Delegates disappear before. Waiting for a whole nomination/election cycle to pass without anyone to fill the position can be a bit frustrating. We actually did have a Vice Delegate before the Glorious Revolution and they had to take over more than once (if I recall correctly, which is not guaranteed: my memory is atrocious).
Perhaps we could elect an officer who's basically a general understudy for all other elected positions. That way we have a backup in case someone goes *poof* from any role. Not a position in which you'd expect to have regular responsibility but one where you're ready to go in the rare case that you're needed. It might even be good for newer Citizens who want to learn the ropes but aren't quite ready/knowledgable enough to commit to a full-time gig.
Just a thought. ^_^
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Perhaps we could elect an officer who's basically a general understudy for all other elected positions. That way we have a backup in case someone goes *poof* from any role. Not a position in which you'd expect to have regular responsibility but one where you're ready to go in the rare case that you're needed. It might even be good for newer Citizens who want to learn the ropes but aren't quite ready/knowledgable enough to commit to a full-time gig.
Just a thought. ^_^
This is a good idea, except I thought the exact opposite, where a veteran would take that role who knew almost everything about every office he'd need to fill in for.
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Also a good plan! I'd be happy either way.
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Also a good plan! I'd be happy either way.
By the way, it's fun debating with you! ;)
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You too! It's nice when people can raise issues or complaints without resorting to nastiness, even if we disagree on how to solve a problem. You're good at actual reasoned discourse and I appreciate it! :h:
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Thanks! :hug:
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You too! It's nice when people can raise issues or complaints without resorting to nastiness, even if we disagree on how to solve a problem. You're good at actual reasoned discourse and I appreciate it! :h:
OMG such rational sensibility.
You do not belong on the internet!
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OMG such rational sensibility.
You do not belong on the internet!
OMG such rational sensibility.
You do not belong on the internet!
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OMG such rational sensibility.
You do not belong on the internet!
OMG such rational sensibility.
You do not belong on the internet!
Hahaha probably true!! XD
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Ecclesia rules all.
Last time I tried to tackle inactive officials there was no Ecclesia and I supposedly was trying to make elections whenever I could.
Now that Ecclesia rules all, I think all you need is to have a vote to have a new election earlier than scheduled, you don't really need any changes to the "system" for that. You'd benefit on changes to the system, make Citizen-Initiator obsolete in how the Ecclesia works was already proposed, and we've actually been substituting ourselves to the Citizen-Initiator in that regard, we already ad hoc "changed the system".
I value this ad hoc spirit therefore I'd suggest subtle changes, transfer more work to voluntary Ecclesia people, let us decide to do things, if we don't do them then it's better than pretending that we're omg so active that we make garden parties and newspapers.
There are ups and downs, I hope to see new newspapers, but I'll barely move a finger for them because I have NO TIME, I'm in the middle of a REAL political campaign, and I'm also working on a project that I want to finish before I emigrate. Up to the middle of October I doubt I'll have much time to write as much as I'm writing now. Like me, it seems a lot of us are in the middle of Real Life crap that we have to deal with, we'll want to spend some time here and help out a little but you gotta count with those that are really available.
I have high hopes with the "new" people that are trying to make us active. I have confidence in their abilities and shown that they can work together and make awesome stuff. As much as the old folks would like to control everything, the "new" people ought to deal with this, we need them fresh blood. They don't have pre-concepted experiences from past golden times that would never work nowadays.
Ecclesia needs to reclaim power, re-design the "offices", we don't need half the bills that grant autonomy to work groups that don't work and aren't really autonomous, we need to decide ourselves what to do, let people be in the center of the discussion, planning and decisions, that way everyone feels they have participated.
I'd also end the ranks in the Militia, they serve absolutely no practical purpose, they're just a status quo crap when we're all the same, we're all guided by the all seeing eye either way.
Ça Ira! Les aristocrats à la lanterne!
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzu01gO3pi4[/yt]
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Ecclesia rules all.
Last time I tried to tackle inactive officials there was no Ecclesia and I supposedly was trying to make elections whenever I could.
Now that Ecclesia rules all, I think all you need is to have a vote to have a new election earlier than scheduled, you don't really need any changes to the "system" for that. You'd benefit on changes to the system, make Citizen-Initiator obsolete in how the Ecclesia works was already proposed, and we've actually been substituting ourselves to the Citizen-Initiator in that regard, we already ad hoc "changed the system".
I value this ad hoc spirit therefore I'd suggest subtle changes, transfer more work to voluntary Ecclesia people, let us decide to do things, if we don't do them then it's better than pretending that we're omg so active that we make garden parties and newspapers.
There are ups and downs, I hope to see new newspapers, but I'll barely move a finger for them because I have NO TIME, I'm in the middle of a REAL political campaign, and I'm also working on a project that I want to finish before I emigrate. Up to the middle of October I doubt I'll have much time to write as much as I'm writing now. Like me, it seems a lot of us are in the middle of Real Life crap that we have to deal with, we'll want to spend some time here and help out a little but you gotta count with those that are really available.
I have high hopes with the "new" people that are trying to make us active. I have confidence in their abilities and shown that they can work together and make awesome stuff. As much as the old folks would like to control everything, the "new" people ought to deal with this, we need them fresh blood. They don't have pre-concepted experiences from past golden times that would never work nowadays.
Ecclesia needs to reclaim power, re-design the "offices", we don't need half the bills that grant autonomy to work groups that don't work and aren't really autonomous, we need to decide ourselves what to do, let people be in the center of the discussion, planning and decisions, that way everyone feels they have participated.
It seems someone agrees! Welcome to the new Revolution, Delfos!
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The Citizen-Delegate (Allama) has been inactive lately. We currently have no acting Citizen-Initiator (Eluvatar's corrupt reign has ended). We're not bringing any WA proposals to a vote because of this.
First, I've not been super active lately, this much is true. I've been responding to all Embassy requests and hanging out on IRC a lot during the day but have otherwise not been up to much as C-D. Very little has come up for me to handle. One of the things I have been doing voluntarily outside of my duties is bringing things to vote in the Ecclesia in Eluvatar's absence. As I've no idea what sort of security checks are normally performed, I've left Citizenry applications alone, hoping Elu would return or that someone more knowledgable in that arena would jump in to help.
Second, I started putting WA proposals up for vote because I thought it would be more democratic to involve the Citizenry in the decision. I stopped doing so because they've recently been passing a lot of junk legislation that immediately gets repealed. Heck, I've stopped even looking at them because it seems like a huge waste of time. I didn't know people actually gave a shit, especially since people in IRC have often said that they don't care about the WA any more. Now that I've been made aware that some Citizens are actually still interested, I'll start posting the polls again. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
For the record, however, it's not actually an official part of the job, just something I personally thought would be nice to do. I'm not "inactive" or neglecting my duties just because I've not been polling WA proposals.
Third, a Vice Citizen-Delegate is a good idea. Supported!
not meaning to pick on allama, just picking the big first-ish post ^^
1) We made the ecclesia so we didn't need a delegate to promote activity. I think we all enjoy the delegate doing absolutely nothing but clerical jobs that aren't that important anyway
2) A vice delegate? No we have enough positions to fill
3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge. The blame is on everyone! Especially when we're a direct democracy and we have no direct leader(s). Quit fussing over who is to blame and think about why you yourself weren't doing enough. If the reason was 'nobody else is posting' then you're a fucking mongrel
4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there
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As much as the old folks would like to control everything, the "new" people ought to deal with this, we need them fresh blood.
Though you made a lot of good points, I'm curious about the above. Which of the old folks specifically are trying to keep personal control and/or suppress the input of new members? I've not seen this happening. In fact, I routinely see the old guard (so to speak) encouraging newbs to participate and run in elections, especially on the RMB.
If this is going on I'm genuinely interested in hearing about it. We can't tolerate that sort of bullshit.
1) We made the ecclesia so we didn't need a delegate to promote activity. I think we all enjoy the delegate doing absolutely nothing but clerical jobs that aren't that important anyway
That's exactly why I ran for Citizen-Delegate. I don't want to shoulder a bunch of responsibility when I know I won't always be available due to being busy in RL. It's nice to be a figurehead: easy peasy "work" and I still get to feel like I'm involved in the region I care about so much. :D
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The Citizen-Delegate (Allama) has been inactive lately. We currently have no acting Citizen-Initiator (Eluvatar's corrupt reign has ended). We're not bringing any WA proposals to a vote because of this.
First, I've not been super active lately, this much is true. I've been responding to all Embassy requests and hanging out on IRC a lot during the day but have otherwise not been up to much as C-D. Very little has come up for me to handle. One of the things I have been doing voluntarily outside of my duties is bringing things to vote in the Ecclesia in Eluvatar's absence. As I've no idea what sort of security checks are normally performed, I've left Citizenry applications alone, hoping Elu would return or that someone more knowledgable in that arena would jump in to help.
Second, I started putting WA proposals up for vote because I thought it would be more democratic to involve the Citizenry in the decision. I stopped doing so because they've recently been passing a lot of junk legislation that immediately gets repealed. Heck, I've stopped even looking at them because it seems like a huge waste of time. I didn't know people actually gave a shit, especially since people in IRC have often said that they don't care about the WA any more. Now that I've been made aware that some Citizens are actually still interested, I'll start posting the polls again. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
For the record, however, it's not actually an official part of the job, just something I personally thought would be nice to do. I'm not "inactive" or neglecting my duties just because I've not been polling WA proposals.
Third, a Vice Citizen-Delegate is a good idea. Supported!
not meaning to pick on allama, just picking the big first-ish post ^^
1) We made the ecclesia so we didn't need a delegate to promote activity. I think we all enjoy the delegate doing absolutely nothing but clerical jobs that aren't that important anyway
2) A vice delegate? No we have enough positions to fill
3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge. The blame is on everyone! Especially when we're a direct democracy and we have no direct leader(s). Quit fussing over who is to blame and think about why you yourself weren't doing enough. If the reason was 'nobody else is posting' then you're a fucking mongrel
4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there
I say we do the exact opposite of whatever St. Oz says. :keke:
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not meaning to pick on allama, just picking the big first-ish post ^^
1) We made the ecclesia so we didn't need a delegate to promote activity. I think we all enjoy the delegate doing absolutely nothing but clerical jobs that aren't that important anyway
2) A vice delegate? No we have enough positions to fill
3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge. The blame is on everyone! Especially when we're a direct democracy and we have no direct leader(s). Quit fussing over who is to blame and think about why you yourself weren't doing enough. If the reason was 'nobody else is posting' then you're a fucking mongrel
4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif)
Most especially supportive of your third point.
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not meaning to pick on allama, just picking the big first-ish post ^^
1) We made the ecclesia so we didn't need a delegate to promote activity. I think we all enjoy the delegate doing absolutely nothing but clerical jobs that aren't that important anyway
2) A vice delegate? No we have enough positions to fill
3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge. The blame is on everyone! Especially when we're a direct democracy and we have no direct leader(s). Quit fussing over who is to blame and think about why you yourself weren't doing enough. If the reason was 'nobody else is posting' then you're a fucking mongrel
4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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not meaning to pick on allama, just picking the big first-ish post ^^
1) We made the ecclesia so we didn't need a delegate to promote activity. I think we all enjoy the delegate doing absolutely nothing but clerical jobs that aren't that important anyway
2) A vice delegate? No we have enough positions to fill
3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge. The blame is on everyone! Especially when we're a direct democracy and we have no direct leader(s). Quit fussing over who is to blame and think about why you yourself weren't doing enough. If the reason was 'nobody else is posting' then you're a fucking mongrel
4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif)
Most especially supportive of your third point.
I agree, especially with the third. I don't think I've ever stated that publicly, so it just occurred to me that some things I say might be mistaken for blaming. It IS our shared responsibility for activity here.
I would just say that if you want to help generate activity, then generate activity. Stop talking about stuff and just do it! The Ecclesia, I think I'm learning, is there to keep things in check, not to be a "big brother/mother-may-I" bureaucracy.
Obviously, you can't revamp the government on your own, but come up with things you CAN do and just do it! Gauging interest is one thing, but don't spend weeks asking if people might possibly be interested in something. If there's no interest in what you're doing, it will be apparent soon enough.
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Awesomesaucer, I don't know if you're serious about a second revolution or whatever, but I am not on board for installing a new government - especially if the point is to generate activity. Like Wast alluded to earlier, you'll get a spike in interest via controversy, but I think Taijitu has had plenty of revolutions. Why don't we work on making our existing government better? Why not fine tune instead of destroy and rebuild?
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I would just say that if you want to help generate activity, then generate activity. Stop talking about stuff and just do it! The Ecclesia, I think I'm learning, is there to keep things in check, not to be a "big brother/mother-may-I" bureaucracy.
:clap: :wb:
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Awesomesaucer, I don't know if you're serious about a second revolution or whatever, but I am not on board for installing a new government - especially if the point is to generate activity. Like Wast alluded to earlier, you'll get a spike in interest via controversy, but I think Taijitu has had plenty of revolutions. Why don't we work on making our existing government better? Why not fine tune instead of destroy and rebuild?
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Awesomesaucer, I don't know if you're serious about a second revolution or whatever, but I am not on board for installing a new government - especially if the point is to generate activity. Like Wast alluded to earlier, you'll get a spike in interest via controversy, but I think Taijitu has had plenty of revolutions. Why don't we work on making our existing government better? Why not fine tune instead of destroy and rebuild?
Tmk, one of the first things I said about this whole ordeal is that I don't want another revolution. This time, we need baby steps.
All I want is a less powerful Liaison position, and more social outreach. That's really all.
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I'm sorry for being a bad Taijituan :(
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I'm sorry for being a bad Taijituan :(
I don't care that you spent two years hanging around Taijitu trying to make it work when it had 40 nations in it, you were Delegate of Lazarus once and that makes you a fucking prick.
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Awesomesaucer, I don't know if you're serious about a second revolution or whatever, but I am not on board for installing a new government - especially if the point is to generate activity. Like Wast alluded to earlier, you'll get a spike in interest via controversy, but I think Taijitu has had plenty of revolutions. Why don't we work on making our existing government better? Why not fine tune instead of destroy and rebuild?
I tried this in 2012, and it definitely did not work.
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Awesomesaucer, I don't know if you're serious about a second revolution or whatever, but I am not on board for installing a new government - especially if the point is to generate activity. Like Wast alluded to earlier, you'll get a spike in interest via controversy, but I think Taijitu has had plenty of revolutions. Why don't we work on making our existing government better? Why not fine tune instead of destroy and rebuild?
I tried this in 2012, and it definitely did not work.
ipsis verbis
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All I want is a less powerful Liaison position, and more social outreach. That's really all.
Again, in what way does this position have too much power?
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All I want is a less powerful Liaison position, and more social outreach. That's really all.
Again, in what way does this position have too much power?
I think I've said this already once, and I can say it again.
I don't think the Liaison should be able to introduce and enact any social programs, ideas, or concepts without some form of approval from the Ecclesia. For example, I don't think that Orri's Citizen-Guide program should have been enacted without a vote of some kind.
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If you wanted the exact legal definitions of that position are below. As can be seen from actually reading this the only actual power granted is to appoint Citizen-Guides, hell the social program aspect is a responsibility not even a power.
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Liaison.
2. An election for Citizen-Citizen-Liaison will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.
2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for establishing and running cultural events in the interest of community building.
4. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum, answering their questions and aid in their incorporation into the community.
3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their powers, responsibilities, aid in community management and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.
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1) We made the ecclesia so we didn't need a delegate to promote activity. I think we all enjoy the delegate doing absolutely nothing but clerical jobs that aren't that important anyway
2) A vice delegate? No we have enough positions to fill
3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge. The blame is on everyone! Especially when we're a direct democracy and we have no direct leader(s). Quit fussing over who is to blame and think about why you yourself weren't doing enough. If the reason was 'nobody else is posting' then you're a fucking mongrel
4) As I said in the other thread, we need native taijituans back in taijitu, stop giving so many shits about other regions especially TNP, and I don't give a shit if you're emperor of buttplugs there
:clap:
Agreed! Especially #3.
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Awesomesaucer, I don't know if you're serious about a second revolution or whatever, but I am not on board for installing a new government - especially if the point is to generate activity. Like Wast alluded to earlier, you'll get a spike in interest via controversy, but I think Taijitu has had plenty of revolutions. Why don't we work on making our existing government better? Why not fine tune instead of destroy and rebuild?
I tried this in 2012, and it definitely did not work.
Yeah, I think I remember reading some of that in the archives, which helped me form my opinion. Plus, what Wast said.
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3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge.
I guess it's because the veterans are always in power, and the veterans are always the ones to keep things active. Because what bbb said:
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. People come here, introduce themselves, then apparently don't find anything worth sticking around for. How do we get people to stick around? I don't know the answer.
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If the older members are "the ones to keep things active," then the logical conclusion is that the older members would be the only ones doing anything at all. I don't think it's right for people to wash their hands of a situation by absolving themselves of responsibility.
This is a community, and we are going to make a community effort to improve things, like we have so many times in the past.
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3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge.
I guess it's because the veterans are always in power, and the veterans are always the ones to keep things active. Because what bbb said:
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. People come here, introduce themselves, then apparently don't find anything worth sticking around for. How do we get people to stick around? I don't know the answer.
I am afraid that you lost me. I think we have covered why the fossils are still holding office (few others want to do anything, etc). And how are BBB's words related to Oz's question?
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3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge.
I guess it's because the veterans are always in power, and the veterans are always the ones to keep things active. Because what bbb said:
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. People come here, introduce themselves, then apparently don't find anything worth sticking around for. How do we get people to stick around? I don't know the answer.
There is relatively no power to be had in taijitu, only positions that are more of a clerical nature or formality than anything.
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3) Why is it every time we're a little inactive people want to blame the ones in charge.
I guess it's because the veterans are always in power, and the veterans are always the ones to keep things active. Because what bbb said:
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. People come here, introduce themselves, then apparently don't find anything worth sticking around for. How do we get people to stick around? I don't know the answer.
There is relatively no power to be had in taijitu, only positions that are more of a clerical nature or formality than anything.
I wasn't sure what I said matched with the original question either. But I like being quoted so I'm not going to say anything. :D
More to the point, as a newer person, I deferred to the "fossils" and respectfully - tentatively - approached with new ideas. What I've noticed is a great surge in fossil postings when any idea or movement shows up on the forums, and usually with great interest.
<gets up on soapbox>
If I may be so bold, I think people like Awesomesaucer (and sometimes me) take that as a big red stop sign and can get discouraged, feeling as if the fossils are showing up only to impede progress. But as I look back on the couple instances where we have had "fossil re-engagement," I don't see anyone actually throwing up a stop sign to ideas (though AS got a stop sign once, who of us hasn't thrown the all-stop at AS?!? ;D ).
I think now after a while here and with these recent convos -- that the fossils re-engage because they love this place and want it to remain a place they know and love, and don't want anything bad to happen to it. So when things are suggested, they perk up and dive in, because regardless of who is here, Taijitu is and always will be their home. I would do the same.
And now I have actually grown to like it - knowing that if I come up with an idea, they'll make time to come check it out and give feedback. In that way, we are pretty luck to have a cadre of fossils around, because that sure as hell beats working up an idea and getting absolute CRICKETS.
I think if the newbies - me, AwesomeSaucer, Orristania and others - can understand that, we can move forward with our ideas freely, and probably more importantly encourage newer folks to engage and not "fear the fossils" who really just have the best interests of Taijitu - a place most of them have put more time into than we have yet - at heart.
<gets down from soapbox>
Please, please correct me if I'm wrong there, because that's the attitude I'm going forward with! :)
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If I may be so bold, I think people like Awesomesaucer (and sometimes me) take that as a big red stop sign and can get discouraged, feeling as if the fossils are showing up only to impede progress. But as I look back on the couple instances where we have had "fossil re-engagement," I don't see anyone actually throwing up a stop sign to ideas (though AS got a stop sign once, who of us hasn't thrown the all-stop at AS?!? ;D ).
I think now after a while here and with these recent convos -- that the fossils re-engage because they love this place and want it to remain a place they know and love, and don't want anything bad to happen to it. So when things are suggested, they perk up and dive in, because regardless of who is here, Taijitu is and always will be their home. I would do the same.
Very much this, yes! I didn't realize re-engagement of older users was being perceived as any kind of "stop" signal to newer Taijis. From my point of view it was encouraging, like, "Oooh, it's good to see some ideas get thrown around, let's each put in our 2 cents, new members and old, so the poster knows we actually care when they bring up new ideas." And because we love this region and it matters to us what happens here, of course.
So... basically exactly what you said. :thumbsup:
When wording responses in the future I'll take care to check for anything that could come across as discouraging where I only intend to debate the merits of some proposal or other. It would be a shame for people to think we're running them out of town when we really just want to participate in their discussions.
Activity is good, especially when new people jump right in and get involved!
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So eloquently put, I agree that fossils fear change in general, and they keep saying...oh but you can do everything you want because DEMOCRACY! Well I've seen this "democracy" resurrect inactive players just to impede "new" people to take power, right after the election all those resurrected returned to the grave. So many skeletons in the closet...just so many...
But "water under the bridge", maybe they have changed, I have full confidence on you three to make a great project, don't fear the fossils, they fear you more than you fear them.
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Others/angry-mob-143.gif)
I leave you with some old posters, maybe they can reignite the passion of change:
(http://i.imgur.com/3EE1JoC.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/i7j1P4t.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IonRTt3.png)
IMAGINE
You, you may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I hope today you’ll join us, and Taijitu will be as one.
We know people want change, we shall join together and make Taijitu a more democratic and participative place for everyone, destroying all barriers for participation in our politics, a government governed by the People.
People always have been the foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics, and they always will be, until they have learned to seek out the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises.
The sort-of-Inactive Founders and their groups incite the active people in the endeavor of trying to govern without proper conditions to keep them powerless. Political conscious people, realizing that the break-down of all the autocratic barriers by the Founders is inevitable and progressive, are trying to help to enlighten and organize their fellow People of Taijitu.
Victory will belong only to those who have faith in the people, those who are immersed in the life-giving spring of popular creativity.
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ERROR
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If you wanted the exact legal definitions of that position are below. As can be seen from actually reading this the only actual power granted is to appoint Citizen-Guides, hell the social program aspect is a responsibility not even a power.
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Liaison.
2. An election for Citizen-Citizen-Liaison will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.
2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for establishing and running cultural events in the interest of community building.
4. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum, answering their questions and aid in their incorporation into the community.
3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their powers, responsibilities, aid in community management and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.
Yes, why don't we truly revert to this definition of Liaison? Nowhere here does it say that you can run on a platform; only ideas!
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If you wanted the exact legal definitions of that position are below. As can be seen from actually reading this the only actual power granted is to appoint Citizen-Guides, hell the social program aspect is a responsibility not even a power.
1. Qualifications and Election
1. Any citizen of Taijitu may stand for election to the office of Citizen-Liaison.
2. An election for Citizen-Citizen-Liaison will be held when three months have passed since the last election, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election by a majority vote, or the office of Citizen-Liaison is vacant.
3. No person may serve as Citizen-Liaison for more than two consecutive terms.
4. The Ecclesia may remove the Citizen-Liaison by a majority vote.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for managing Taijitu's community and community activity.
2. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for updating and maintaining the community guides.
3. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for establishing and running cultural events in the interest of community building.
4. The Citizen-Liaison will be responsible for welcoming new members to the forum, answering their questions and aid in their incorporation into the community.
3. Citizen-Guides
1. The Citizen-Liaison may appoint any number of citizen-guides to assist them in their powers, responsibilities, aid in community management and all associated activities.
2. The Citizen-Liaison may dismiss citizen-guides at any time.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any citizen-guide by a majority vote.
Yes, why don't we truly revert to this definition of Liaison? Nowhere here does it say that you can run on a platform; only ideas!
I do not generally get lost several times in a thread :P
How have we moved away from the definition?
Could a collection of ideas not be termed a Platform?
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And how are BBB's words related to Oz's question?
Actually, I knew why they were related, but then I forgot, and now even I don't know how they're related really. Does that ever happen to you? OMG PLEASE TELL ME I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!
I think people are always naturally inclined to blame the ones in power, even if they don't have real power; like Oz said.
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So eloquently put, I agree that fossils fear change in general, and they keep saying...oh but you can do everything you want because DEMOCRACY! Well I've seen this "democracy" resurrect inactive players just to impede "new" people to take power, right after the election all those resurrected returned to the grave. So many skeletons in the closet...just so many...
How about some facts to back up your rhetoric? Name one thing a fossil has done to impede new people getting into positions of "power".
I've asked you this question repeatedly and have yet to receive a response. Just one thing, that's all I'm asking. If you can point to something older members are actually doing to put a roadblock in front of new people, I'll back you up. Until then, I'm just gonna keep calling bullshit.
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Until then, I'm just gonna keep calling bullshit.
Uh, excuse me, but we have emoticons, please use them.
:bs: :bs: :bs:
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Until then, I'm just gonna keep calling bullshit.
Uh, excuse me, but we have emoticons, please use them.
:bs: :bs: :bs:
Quite right, Sir. I lament my poor choice of not including emoticons! Forgive me...
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050827054411/uncyclopedia/images/c/ce/Crying_emoticon.gif) (http://img15.deviantart.net/c61e/i/2002/27/b/5/crying_emoticon.gif) (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/tantrum.gif) (http://img13.deviantart.net/adb8/a/large/icon/emoticons/cry_emoticon_-_updated.gif) (http://img05.deviantart.net/48a9/i/2006/185/6/b/crying_emoticon_by_vampire_bunnies.gif)
As solemn penance I will add whichever of the above .gifs that you like to the forum set.
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OMG ALL OF THEM!
Edit: Actually, I don't really care for the first one.
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Greater Canada and Osamafune's campaign in 2007 or 2008
http://forum.taijitu.org/elections-42/delegate-elections-february-2008-voting/ « probably this one, but I was pretty sure it was done by poll so it's likely one earlier.
They were leading until the last day, all them new and active roleplayers were together for this guys (except for the "fossil" bunch), two thirds of the active people, it was in the bag, but then people that had been inactive for months voted, then went back to being inactive. You can say all you want, I'll interpret this in only one way, you may interpret it in another if you like.
If you want we can talk about other skeletons but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't help "deal with the inactivity".
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We're talking about things as they stand currently, not events that occurred under a completely different political/electoral system. I thought that was obvious but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't realize that was what I meant as I didn't provide a precise timeline.
To be clear: you brought up fossils coming back when the region was reborn last year and trying to keep all the power for ourselves. The current Ecclesia-based system is what you have been claiming is a farce democracy so that's what I'm asking about. What specific behaviors are happening now or have happened at any point since the Glorious Revolution that you find objectionable?
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I don't think any of the "fossils" are begging you to let them stay around. If anyone doesn't feel welcome they're not going to waste their time here.
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While yes some people were canvassed to vote for Sovereign Dixie, (including myself, who declined) quite possibly letting him beat Allama 17 votes to 15, I just want to point out that SD beat Osafune 21 to 10, and indeed Allama beat Osafune 26 to 6.
If anyone was beaten through summoning fossils, it was Allama, not Osafune, in that election.
Regardless, Allama's quite right that that was seven years ago and under a completely different system with a very different group of people.
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I don't think any of the "fossils" are begging you to let them stay around. If anyone doesn't feel welcome they're not going to waste their time here.
I think this would be horrible, and I hope no one is implying this is an end goal. :(
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Regarding that particular election, again I'm not sure if that was the one, but even SD says he was asked to run ~he kinda said~ "Every time you guys need me to step in and take over Taijitu I'm completely free to do as I've been summoned in the past".
The rest, yeah, you're mixing up the many skeletons I might have said here or in the past, when I said there were many skeletons, I didn't mean "just now". Those are different timelines / regimes, yes. I do think that some of the way it was done was to keep the power in the "family". Many of the times disregarding the difference of opinion and having closed discussions, like the bills for the constitution right before Ecclesia, where things got moved to vote before I (or anyone besides "that" group) had the chance to finish my proposals, I mentioned the last version got to go to vote not even a full day away, I mentioned in open IRC channel I was reading a drafting a revision proposal from my notes and previous proposals and suddenly, while I was drafting, the bill was moved to vote, ah...dick move. Tell me otherwise if you want, I'll always see it another way.
Regarding Ecclesia-era (contemporary) I have always argued that there was too much power transfer to offices and little offices and sub-comission offices and more and more, that Ecclesia was losing power to unlock the participative potential our creative members had, I always argued those were mere titles, pure status quo, which is completely the opposite of the notion of a participative democracy where everyone is equal, horizontal structure, etc. I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
We have a quite recent case where "fossils" stepped in to direct a process and were forced to compromise in paper, but forced their views in practice - and this was in the Ecclesia era. Our GP strategy is complete bullshit, we were all "regionalism" and "sovereigntists" which many wanted to be a middle stance, neither defender nor raider, probably both to whatever whim. Yet it was always pushed to "Defenderism", still in paper is called "Sovereigntism" but whoever was in charge of the militia made sure we were with "their team" of Defenders. Sovereign my ass.
It's a normal reaction, in group dynamics it's called collective narcissism, and all the "inter-group aggression" and "charisma following" is all part of a collective of weak individuals who cannot lead themselves (I'm kinda pushing interpretation one way but this is studied, go search). We are here, now, trying to make this a "direct" - although I much rather - Participative Democracy, I'm pretty sure we can let the the past be water under the bridge.
There must be another way. We just have to imagine it ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/i7j1P4t.jpg)
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Our GP strategy is complete bullshit, we were all "regionalism" and "sovereigntists" which many wanted to be a middle stance, neither defender nor raider, probably both to whatever whim. Yet it was always pushed to "Defenderism", still in paper is called "Sovereigntism" but whoever was in charge of the militia made sure we were with "their team" of Defenders. Sovereign my ass.
This shows me you're not familiar with Sovereigntism.
Also it seems you're not aware that Taijitu just raided [region]The Greater German Reich[/region] and Lone Wolves United. (https://i.gyazo.com/89ce39952a2160656aff72070840066c.png)
We hold a pretty consistent foreign policy that is definitely defender leaning but also advocates the other side of the coin for aggressors.
The rest of that doesn't really make sense. I don't know what you mean by "their team." There is only one team, and we all work together to help stop aggression.
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I think all of us fossils should pack up and let the new blood do what they want with Taijitu. I'm sure that without the endlessly-growing group of people
opposed to whatever it is Delfos is proposing killing democracy this region would prosper and grow beyond all our wildest dreams.
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(https://38.media.tumblr.com/ba34b0349b629ded41aa692ad4cef1ae/tumblr_inline_nrkdwr3Qe41qzkf5i_500.gif)
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I am understanding that as "I have nothing to say."
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I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
This has got me thinking perhaps certain offices could instead be voluntary "cabinets" or whatever of citizen-volunteers under different sectors such as foreign policy, community activity, etc rather than a direct person. So rather than a Citizen-Liaison we would have a team of volunteer Citizen-Guides, rather than a Citizen-Initator we would have a team of Citizen-Clerks, VotP could be run by a collective easily enough as well. A fledgling idea, yet one I will continue to develop.
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I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
This has got me thinking perhaps certain offices could instead be voluntary "cabinets" or whatever of citizen-volunteers under different sectors such as foreign policy, community activity, etc rather than a direct person. So rather than a Citizen-Liaison we would have a team of volunteer Citizen-Guides, rather than a Citizen-Initator we would have a team of Citizen-Clerks, VotP could be run by a collective easily enough as well. A fledgling idea, yet one I will continue to develop.
I kind of like this idea.
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I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
This has got me thinking perhaps certain offices could instead be voluntary "cabinets" or whatever of citizen-volunteers under different sectors such as foreign policy, community activity, etc rather than a direct person. So rather than a Citizen-Liaison we would have a team of volunteer Citizen-Guides, rather than a Citizen-Initator we would have a team of Citizen-Clerks, VotP could be run by a collective easily enough as well. A fledgling idea, yet one I will continue to develop.
I kind of like this idea.
Agreed.
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I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
This has got me thinking perhaps certain offices could instead be voluntary "cabinets" or whatever of citizen-volunteers under different sectors such as foreign policy, community activity, etc rather than a direct person. So rather than a Citizen-Liaison we would have a team of volunteer Citizen-Guides, rather than a Citizen-Initator we would have a team of Citizen-Clerks, VotP could be run by a collective easily enough as well. A fledgling idea, yet one I will continue to develop.
This is a very smart idea. I would love to see this idea more fleshed out! :)
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I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
This has got me thinking perhaps certain offices could instead be voluntary "cabinets" or whatever of citizen-volunteers under different sectors such as foreign policy, community activity, etc rather than a direct person. So rather than a Citizen-Liaison we would have a team of volunteer Citizen-Guides, rather than a Citizen-Initator we would have a team of Citizen-Clerks, VotP could be run by a collective easily enough as well. A fledgling idea, yet one I will continue to develop.
This is a very smart idea. I would love to see this idea more fleshed out! :)
Screw that. I'd love to see someone take this idea and run with it, adjusting it as they go. Carpe Diem!!!
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I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
This has got me thinking perhaps certain offices could instead be voluntary "cabinets" or whatever of citizen-volunteers under different sectors such as foreign policy, community activity, etc rather than a direct person. So rather than a Citizen-Liaison we would have a team of volunteer Citizen-Guides, rather than a Citizen-Initator we would have a team of Citizen-Clerks, VotP could be run by a collective easily enough as well. A fledgling idea, yet one I will continue to develop.
This is a very smart idea. I would love to see this idea more fleshed out! :)
Screw that. I'd love to see someone take this idea and run with it, adjusting it as they go. Carpe Diem!!!
As would I given my scant time for the moment.
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Dropping the titles also works. We've already sort-of implemented such type of voluntary work with the "embassies". Trusting our members, even the new ones, to do the right thing is important to show the collective can grow beyond the tight knit roots. Any "transgression" by any type of volunteers can be discussed and dealt with by the Ecclesia as a whole, there's no need to have a chief-this chief-that.
Regarding citizenry, if I'm not mistaken many people that intervene here can change the group (add the citizenship banner) for new members, imo it's easier to accept everyone without background/security check, and that doesn't need to be done before being accepted as citizen, it could as well be done after anyone is accepted as citizen, if there's a problem with anyone registering I'm pretty sure the security people can do whatever they're supposed to do regardless he has been accepted as citizen or not. Just out of curiosity, how many people that have applied have been denied citizenship? Is there even a reason why we have to "screen" them before we accept their applications? This would alleviate any work the current Citizen-Initiator could do that Ecclesia can't do by itself. We'd just have to list whatever constitutes an offense that impedes anyone to be a citizen, like multiple accounts, is there cases of this?
The only sad job would be Delegate, the game doesn't really give us much options regarding this person, but an Allama-like standard seems to be pretty awesome, a spokesperson, representative, and that deals with pesky WA votes.
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like multiple accounts, is there cases of this?
Yes.
Most of the C-I's job has generally fallen into two categories - "speaker-type" activities (managing votes, etc.) and handling citizenship lists (sending out warnings, etc). The security part has never been a part of the C-I's job (except when the C-I independently held that security responsibility).
Security check, then masking. I would never support changing that order.
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like multiple accounts, is there cases of this?
Yes.
Most of the C-I's job has generally fallen into two categories - "speaker-type" activities (managing votes, etc.) and handling citizenship lists (sending out warnings, etc). The security part has never been a part of the C-I's job (except when the C-I independently held that security responsibility).
Security check, then masking. I would never support changing that order.
I can absolutely back you up there. When administrating a site, multiple accounts is probably the biggest problem.
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Trying to find a way to free clerical work from citizenry can't be that hard. Can't those who can mask people also see the multiple accounts issue? Can there be a standard method to let people be checked and masked (together), while the different kind of security checks that aren't completely necessary when people are applying be done in a later time, therefore alleviating the citizenry process?
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What unnecessary checks do you think are being done?
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What unnecessary checks do you think are being done?
(http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls21k4D0Oq1qg39ewo1_500.gif)
If all admins can do all the checks, all admins can mask/rooster fill. You are admin, there's no need for a Citizen-Initiator specially if they are not admin. « That's what I'm saying.
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I've always argued that foreign policy couldn't be driven by a single person of delegated by such, those are issues everyone should discuss. If you want to go back to all those discussions, we're having them again right now, and I'm not the one talking about those issues, and apparently we as a collective are realizing how much bullshit those "offices" were. I'm pretty happy we're having this discussions and maybe something can come up from them. Learning from past mistakes is pretty important for a collective.
This has got me thinking perhaps certain offices could instead be voluntary "cabinets" or whatever of citizen-volunteers under different sectors such as foreign policy, community activity, etc rather than a direct person. So rather than a Citizen-Liaison we would have a team of volunteer Citizen-Guides, rather than a Citizen-Initator we would have a team of Citizen-Clerks, VotP could be run by a collective easily enough as well. A fledgling idea, yet one I will continue to develop.
I'm not sure how I feel about this with the advent of regional officers onsite. I still want higher numbers of people involved with these tasks and to have them open to any Ecclesia member, yet we need an office and an officer for each if they are to have an effect on our ingame region.